Wikipedia talk:WikiProject South Africa

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WikiProject South Africa (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject South Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of South Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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Wikimedia ZA Annual General Meeting 2017[edit]

This is just to let everyone know that the Wikimedia ZA AGM will be taking place in November 2017 in Cape Town. See below for more details.

  • Time: Sunday, 26 November 2017, starts at 14:00 to 17:00
  • Location: 6 Spin Street Restaurant (in the Tutu room at the back), ground floor, 6 Spin Street, in the Cape Town city bowl area.

If you would like to attend digitally we will be broadcasting the event over Google Hangouts, to join click on the link here.

The event page can be found on the Wikimedia ZA website here.

The AGM is open to all South African based Wikipedia and other Wikimeddia project editors. Membership is required to vote on resolutions but not required to attend. People are able to sign up as members at the AGM or they can signup before hand at the details on the Wikimedia ZA website.

Football or soccer?[edit]

A question has been posted on the Football/Soccer WikiProject about the correct terminology to use when dealing with SA subjects. It would be great if members of this project could contribute to the conversation. Thanks, Nzd (talk) 00:31, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Generally in South African English it is soccer, very few people use football. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talkcontribs) 09:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Ending the system of portals[edit]

Hello, there's a proposal to delete all Wikipedia portals. Please see the discussion here. --NaBUru38 (talk) 14:02, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Assistance please, updates to finances, executives and shareholders at Barclays Africa[edit]

Hi all,

I would appreciate your kind assistance once again. Barclays Africa has recently published annual results, and shuffled its executive.

I have added several changes to the Barclays Africa page, and my input can be viewed here:,_shareholding_and_executive_updates

I have also updated the shareholding table re major shareholders and geographic split.

I'd appreciate assistance in updating these changes, as the page is a quite out of date.

Thanks so much! And a great long weekend for all! Nicola Mawson (talk) 19:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Capitalisation of races[edit]

Howzit all.

There has been a recent discussion at Talk:Apartheid concerning the capitalisation of races. I have generally objected to this practice because capitalising races is not covered under MOS:CAPS, but @DumaTorpedo: raised the interesting point that "black South African" is considered a reference to all races other than white than South Africa, including Coloureds and Asian South Africans. Duma has suggested that we capitalise "Black" on the Apartheid article accordingly.

As this may set a precedent for all articles written in South African English in the future, I want to ensure this topic is thoroughly discussed here. Should "Black" always be capitalised when used in reference to Bantu peoples in South Africa? Should lowercase "black" only be used as a general term to denote a non-white South African?

Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 17:05, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks for considering my opinions :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talkcontribs) 03:46, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

What evidence supports the options? · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi peter, the following sources back up my claims that “black” implies all those non-white ( especially Asians) in South Africa[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

MOS:CAPS does require races to be capatalised because when we are referring to a specific race, we are referring to a specific group of people and thus the terms Black South African and White South African for example are proper names which according the style and general practice in English need to start with a capital. --DSBennie (talk) 08:13, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

So in that case is the capitalization of race in Articles about South Africa acceptable along with the fact that “black” implies non-white and should be explained? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talkcontribs) 02:50, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

That's what the discussion here is supposed to establish. Personally, I'd like to hear more input from more South African contributors, several of whom are quite active on this WikiProject.
On another note, I was hoping that most of the sources cited for establishing this precedent have to do with Coloured and Asian self-identification as black rather than their classification under BEE legislation. Duma, do you have any sources for that? --Katangais (talk) 17:26, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

That would be hard to get,I am personally of Asian ancestry and identity as black and so do the Chinese South Africans who brought forward the 2008 request. Personal identification though is a opaque subject to find on the Internet and usually comes up from conversation. I do see your point though and apart from the Chinese community that brought up the request I will attempt to find more.Duma Torpedo

Here a few examples that prove that Indian South Africans have NOT conventionally ever been considered 'black' (capitalised or uncapitalised):

  1. In the South African national census Indians/Asians comprise a distinct category from that of black South Africans[8]
  2. In the application of quota systems at public universities in South Africa, Indian people comprise a distinct group.[9]
  3. The apartheid regime considered Indian people to be a distinct ethnic group evidenced by the fact that under the apartheid government created the South African Indian Council body in 1968 to deal with matters affecting Indian South Africans. Indian South Africans also received limited representation by the House of Delegates body, which was reserved for Indian South Africans, in the tricameral parliament from 1984-1994. Black South Africans were not entitled to any representation under apartheid.
  4. Jonathan Annipen's (of the Minority Front) statement that Malema was "trying very hard to frustrate the democratic gains of social cohesion and nation building and is deepening the divide between blacks and Indians."[10] Annipen, an Indian man of a political party which enjoys large support from Indian South Africans, has clearly drawn a distinction between Indian and black people.
  5. Ayesha Fakie, an Indian South African who is the head of Sustained Dialogues at the Institute for Justice & Reconciliation in an article states "How we Indians benefit more from empowerment policies than black people..."[11] This statement alone shows Fakie does not consider Indian South Africans to be 'black'.
  6. The news article regarding the National Funeral Practioners Association's call to "ban all white and Indian funeral companies from black communities..."[12] again draws a distinction between Indian and black South Africans.
  7. A SASCO review of Black Economic Empowerment states "White people held 58.1% of senior management positions‚ black people held 22.1%‚ Indian people held 10.6%..."[13] This shows that a distinction is drawn between Indian and black South Africans.
  8. A SAHO article on the history of Indian South Africans states "These laws shaped the political, economic and social fabric and experience of black, Coloured, Indian and white people in South Africa."[14]. Again, this shows a distinction is made between Indian and black South Africans.

Classical liberal za (talk) 04:05, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Yet the M&G, NEWS 24, WSJ, Telegraph, BBC ( with a combined reader base of millions) draw a distinction along with the law and the Asian ( which Indian South Africans fall under)community that brought forward the case that we are black. Along with Steve Biko and the black consciousness Movement ( with a massive following and a prominent force in the Struggle against Apartheid) that founded the idea that non-white has negative connotations.

To contextualize how does “non-black” sound? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talkcontribs) 06:51, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

That's untrue - I quoted News24 and the M&G in points 4 and 6 and a distinction was drawn between black and Indian South Africans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Classical liberal za (talkcontribs) 05:07, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Read citations from NEWS24 and M&G distinguish, and the Asian Communities that brought the ruling forward? And the international sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talkcontribs) 09:16, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but I'll assume you are asking me to elaborate.

From the Mail & Guardian:

  1. "During apartheid, Indians were subjugated by the white regime, but were still considered superior to coloured and black people." [15]

From News24:

  1. "The association has been lobbying since December to ban all white and Indian owned funeral parlours from black communities" [16]

The M&G and News24 quite clearly use uncapitalised 'black' to refer exclusively to Black African people. How would it be possible for Indian people to be considered superior to black people by the apartheid regime and be potentially excluded from owning funeral parlours in black communities if they are black? The statement that News24 and the M&G use 'black' to refer to Indians and Coloureds is patently false. Classical liberal za (talk) 11:27, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

The M&G and News24 (citation 6 and 5) also indicate that Asian communities ( who clearly self-identify as “black” since it was Asian communities that brought forward the case) are black. Please read the citations on the top of the page from the M&G and News24. Clearly classical liberal Za disregards The Asian communities own opinion on our classification as well as international and local sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talkcontribs) 11:34, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@Classical liberal za: Does the South African census explicitly use lowercase "black" to refer to Bantu peoples in South Africa? Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 19:31, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

No, the census uses “Black African” [17] DumaTorpedo (talk) 07:09, 9 May 2018 (UTC)DumaTorpedo


  1. ^ "Asians are black in South Africa". 
  2. ^ "Formerly oppressed poeple are black in South Africa". 
  3. ^ "Chinese South Africans are the new "blacks"". 
  4. ^ "The Telegraph on Chinese South Africans now being black". 
  5. ^ "Chinese status". News24. Retrieved 2018-04-28. 
  6. ^ Reporter, Staff. "Chinese South Africans qualify for BEE, court rules". The M&G Online. Retrieved 2018-04-28. 
  7. ^ {{Cite news|url=
  8. ^ "Census in brief" (PDF). Statistics South Africa. Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  9. ^ "Racial quotas at UCT" (PDF). The University of Cape Town. Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  10. ^ Patel, Aaisha Dadi. "Malema might have a point about South African Indian people". The M&G Online. Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  11. ^ Fakie, Ayesha. "Let's talk about Indian privilege in apartheid South Africa | Daily Maverick". Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  12. ^ "Banning white and Indian funeral parlours from black communities illegal, says Doves Group CEO". News24. Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  13. ^ "A review on Black Economic Empowerment (BEE)". Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  14. ^ "Indian South Africans: 1924-1948 Legislation and Segregation". South African History Online. 18 October 2016. Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  15. ^ Patel, Aaisha Dadi. "Malema might have a point about South African Indian people". The M&G Online. Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  16. ^ "Banning white and Indian funeral parlours from black communities illegal, says Doves Group CEO". News24. Retrieved 13 April 2018. 
  17. ^

Donald Sole[edit]

Hello. Is anyone here interested in creating Ambassador Donald Sole's article please? And feel free to expand Herbert Beukes if you can. I created it as his name came up while I was reading Ron Nixon's book, but I have no intention to expand it. Thanks!Zigzig20s (talk) 02:46, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Jannie Marais[edit]

Good evening South African editors

I have written a draft article about Johannes Henoch Marais, also known as Jannie Marais (please follow link below). There is already an Afrikaans article about him in the Afrikaans Wikipedia ( but there is no English article so I thought I could help by writing one. If you think it's suitable, could you please accept?

Thank you Mockby 123 (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Name change[edit]

Template:Review Edit Hi all,

I am such a newbie, it's actually an embarrassment. However, could you please review suggestions here:


BTW, the plagiarism (apparent) is because we edited what was on page, and didn't clearly show changes. Ta Nicola Mawson (talk) 16:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject[edit]

The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.


On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you.    — The Transhumanist   07:56, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Kringe in 'n Bos (Circles in a Forest)[edit]

Good afternoon South African Wikipedians

I have created a draft article about the well-known Afrikaans novel "Kringe in 'n Bos" (translated as "Circles in a Forest") by Dalene Matthee which is studied at South African schools. There is a short article about the novel in the Afrikaans Wikipedia, but there is no article in the English Wikipedia yet. Could an editor please review the article and accept, if it is acceptable?

Here is a link to the article:'n_Bos_(Circles_in_a_Forest)

Thank you, Mockby 123 (talk) 15:54, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dodger67: Can you you advise on this page title? Should this article be named Circles in a Forest (novel) or Kringe in 'n bos? Gbawden (talk) 05:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
I think this is a question for WP:WikiProject Literature. What is the usual standard for translated works - is the original language title or the English translation preferred? BTW, it has been translated into English, Portuguese, Dutch, French, Icelandic, Spanish, Hebrew, German, Swedish, Italian, Finnish and Norwegian.[1] Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)


  1. ^ "Kringe in 'n Bos". Seiklo Publishers. Retrieved 2 June 2018. 

Draft:Magda Wierzycka[edit]

I need help completing this draft about a prominent SA businesswoman. The "Career" section in particular still needs to be written. I've listed many sources on the page. Unfortunately I just don't have the time to complete this before the draft goes "stale". If anyone is interested please feel free to pick up where I've left off. Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

3 drafts articles on Moonlighting Film Production Services & its co-owners Genevieve Hofmeyr & Phillip Key[edit]

Hello Wikipedians

I'm hoping my post catches the eye of an editor...

Below are links to 3 draft articles that I wrote, two of which were rejected. I have re-edited them extensively and found new sources. I have tried to include sources from the biggest American film-related publications in an effort to demonstrate that the information is factual - I don't know what more to do to convince the reviewers that it is legitimate other than to propose that they contact the film production companies themselves to verify the information. If there is a South African editor reading this post, could you please take a look and accept the articles if you believe they are acceptable? Thank you.




Thank you. Mockby 123 (talk) 10:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Finding latest articles related to South Africa[edit]


What would be the best place to find the latest articles related to WikiProject:South Africa? I am currently trying to gather a list of articles needing improvement. Those articles would be improved during an edit-athon with South African librarians, as part of next Wikimania.

Best regards, African Hope (talk) 12:27, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

African Hope, The table at Wikipedia:WikiProject_South_Africa#Project_statistics should give you some idea of useful places to start. It does not classify by date, but it would be worth considering prioritising low quality rated articles of high importance. The ratings may not be up to date, so check what is there for yourself. Cheers, · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 14:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
I took a look at a sample, and it is not clear why some of them are associated with this project, but it is a start. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 15:43, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you Pbsouthwood, that gives a good starting point. -- African Hope (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikimania in Cape Town[edit]

Hello everyone, just in case you are in South Africa (Cape Town more specifically) and have not heard it yet. This year's Wikimania will be taking place in Cape Town, South Africa at the Southern Sun Cape Sun Hotel on Strand Street from the 18th-22nd July with the main conference taking place from the 20th to the 22nd July. This is likely to be the only time it will come to Cape Town and quite possibly South Africa so now is the time to attend if you can.--Discott (talk) 16:12, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Wrong info regarding Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika?[edit]

Re article about the Aberystwyth hymn tune

I really think the statement that there is a link between the Aberystwyth hymn tune and Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika needs some verfication by someone who knows more about music than I do. But my untrained ear (and even those of doctor in music as well as a South African composer whom I have asked) could hear no comparison whatsoever between: Hymn Aberystwyth: and Nkosi: Mieliestronk (talk) 01:13, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree that they do not sound the same, and have requested a citation at the article.· · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:36, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Template not displaying[edit]

Could someone more technical please take a look at List of heritage sites in Cape Town CBD, the Waterfront, and the Bo-Kaap and see why the template is not displaying? Thanks Gbawden (talk) 06:54, 31 July 2018 (UTC)