Talk:Flying Cloud (clipper)

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[Untitled]

I believe the record was broken in 1989. (Anonymous observation moved here from article --Wetman 06:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Spelling

I'm pretty sure that 'Grinell' is spelled with 2 n's

I just consulted the Shaw book, he spells it Grinnell too; it was Moses H. Grinnell, head of the New York office of Grinnell, Minturn & Company.

--AJim 02:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Jackson?

In Andrew_Jackson_(clipper), it is stated that this ship beat the record of the Flying Cloud by four hours. Even if the record is disputed (see ref. article), shouldn't it at least be mentioned here? -- DevSolar (talk) 07:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Added a section to address this. Cutler includes the logbooks and several citations to explain the competing claims to the record. Djembayz (talk) 14:14, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excellently done! -- DevSolar (talk) 15:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification needed

In the section: Race with clipper Hornet in 1853, it says that the Flying Cloud left two days after the Hornet, but "both ships arrived in San Francisco harbor 106 days later at almost the same time" which means that Hornet actually took 108 days. Is that worth a fix? I leave it to someone with more editing savvy than I have, or I'll do it later once I learn the editing ropes. Photobones (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speed of Flying Cloud

The article states that Flying Cloud covered 374 miles in 3 days, this is incorrect. The ship's logs states on the northbound leg in the South Pacific Flying Cloud covered 374 from noon till noon, a 24 hour period. Flying Cloud was about 800 miles west of Chile from noon on July 30, 1851 until noon on July 31, 1851 traveling north in front of a developing storm. Her log reads, on July 30-31, 1851: "Fresh breezes with fine weather all sails set At 2 P.M. wind South east at 6 squally (took) in lower and Top Gallant studding sails 7 (took) in Royals At 2 A.M. (took) in fore Top Mast Studding Sail Latter part strong Gales & high seas running Ship very wet fore & aft. Distance run this day by observation is 374 miles an average of 15 14/24th Knots...During the squalls 18 Knots of line was not sufficient to measure her rate of speed. Top gallant sails set." Flying Cloud over 3 days ran the following nautical mileage, 284, 374 and 334 for 992 nautical miles which converts to 1144 statute miles.

Source: The book "Flying Cloud" by David W. Shaw

Clipper1854 (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC)Harvey[reply]

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Loss of the ship -- ashore or aground?

There has been a disagreement about the appropriate way to describe the loss of the ship.

It had been written that the ship "went ashore on the Beacon Island bar, Saint John, New Brunswick, and was condemned and sold", with a reference to an online source (Izak Hough).

On 15 September 2024 a user at 174.197.71.194 changed the term "went ashore" to "went aground" noting that they had "Fixed improper sailing terminology"

A few hours later user ThoughtIdRetired reverted to "went ashore" with this note: "No, this is a commonly used nautical term and we have to suspect that this is what the cited source says."

I looked up both terms in the Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea. It distinguishes between the two terms: "a ship runs ashore when she strikes the land, but runs aground if she strikes a submerged bank not connected with the shore."

On this basis I think "went aground" is the better of two proper terms for an event where the ship strikes a bar. Also, I looked into ThoughtIdRetired's suspicion about what the cited source says. No need to suspect -- here is the relevant piece from Hough: "The Flying Cloud grounded on Beacon Island in 1874 and had to return to St. Johns, where she was burned for her fastenings in June the following year."

I have reverted to "went aground" Peter Marquis-Kyle (talk) 11:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our guidance on this comes from sources. The first three that I have checked all say "went ashore". These are:

Howe, Octavius Thorndike; Matthews, Frederick C. (1986). American Clipper Ships 1833-1858. Vol. 1: Adelaide - Lotus (Unabridged republ. of the work orig. publ. ... Salem, Mass., in 1926/27 ed.). New York: Dover Publ. ISBN 0-486-25115-2. pg 195. Howe and Matthews' two volume work is a definitive starting point for any study of American clippers.
MacGregor, David R. (1993). British & American clippers: a comparison of their design, construction and performance in the 1850s. London: Conway Maritime. ISBN 0-85177-588-8. pg 61. MacGregor was the leading authority on British clippers, but as you will see from the title of this work, did venture outside this area. He knew Howard I. Chapelle – if I remember correctly, they each wrote the forward of some books written by the other. So he was well informed on American ships generally. Flying Cloud was in British ownership at the time of her loss, so MacGregor would have encountered all the necessary information when he was researching for his various books.
"Latest Telegrams". Lloyd's List. 19 Jun 1874. Retrieved 15 September 2024. – though this says "is ashore", because it is reporting the current event. Since maritime losses was then the entire concern of Lloyd's at the time, I think we can take it that their terminology was definitive.

The reference (Hough) relied on by User:PeterMarquisKyle is a website selling kits for ship models. This does not qualify as a WP:RS, as there is no peer review, quality publisher, record of being cited by others, etc. For all we know, Hough copied this information from an earlier version of the Wikipedia article. Do you need any more sources on this, or will you revert back to "went ashore"? ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 12:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing that User:PeterMarquisKyle is an infrequent editor, I have gone ahead and made the reversion, as well as swapping out the non-RS source. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]