Talk:Four Commanderies of Han

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Lelang.jpg

Untitled[edit]

one ref map from textbook. Evawen (talk) 20:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Image edit war[edit]

No comment from myself on the merits of the image but please quit the slow edit war; if it continues I will protect the article till you take time to figure it out. Consider discussing the various merits here please --Errant (chat!) 16:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Locations of Four Commanderies[edit]

Four commanderies are located in northern Korean Peninsula and part of the Liaodong Peninsula. Supporting evidence:

1. http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Korea.html

Han Chinese built four commanderies, or local military units, to rule the peninsula as far south as the Han River, with a core area at Lolang (Nangnang in Korean), near present-day P'yongyang. It is illustrative of the relentlessly different historiography practiced in North Korea and South Korea, as well as the projection backward of Korean nationalism practiced by both sides, that North Korean historians deny that the Lolang Commandery was centered in Korea. They place it northwest of the peninsula, possibly near Beijing, in order to de-emphasize China's influence on ancient Korean history.

2. the book "Korea, Old and New":

pp 13: The territorial extent of the Four Chinese Commanderies seems to have been limited to the area north of the Han River.

pp 14: As its administrative center, the Chinese built what was inessence a Chinese city where the governor, officials, merchants, and Chinese colonists lived. Their way of life in general can be surmised from the investigation of remains unearthed at T'osong-ni, the site of the Lelang administrative center near modern P'yongyang. ... The Chinese administration had considerable impact on the life of the native population and ultimatedly the very fabric of Gojoseon society became eroded.

pp 16: map of "Korea in the confederated Kingdoms period (ca. 1st-3rd centuries A.D)"

3. the book "A history of Korea, from Antiquity to the present":

pp 18: For the next four centuries a northwestern part of the Korean peninsula was directly incorporated in to the Chinese Empire.... The Taedong River basin, the area where the modern city of P'yongyang is located, became the center of the Lelang commandery.

Any one who want to "move" its location to purely Liaodong Peninsula, show your evidence. EJcarter (talk) 21:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Yoon, Nae-Hyun. "True Understanding of Old Choson." Korea Journal 27:12 (December 1987): 23-40 says that the commanderies aren't even in Korean peninsula with no archeleogical evidence to prove such claim. North Koreans and other archeleogists found some Han dynasty artifacts that date from Former Han (200 AD), not the Later Han (200 BCE), around the time Gojoseon was invaded by Han. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.126.217 (talk) 23:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

First, I have to tell you that the journal "Korea Journal" is a Korean publication, although it is written in English. It is not supported and reviewed by the third party of academia (for instance, western academia). What the author did in the paper is exactly described in the first evidence I provided above: "Korean nationalists place it northwest of the peninsula, possibly near Beijing, in order to de-emphasize China's influence on ancient Korean history". Therefore, it is not a reliable source at all.
Second, There are many archaeological evidence supporting the capital of Lelang is near modern-day P'yongyang:
The way of life maintained by the elite at the capital in the P'yongyang area, which is known from the tombs and scattered archaeological remains, evinces a prosperous, refined, and very Chinese culture. -- "A history of Korea, from Antiquity to the present" of pp 19 and "State Formation in Korea", pp 19-20.
Their way of life in general can be surmised from the investigation of remains unearthed at T'osong-ni, the site of the Lelang administrative center near modern P'yongyang. The variety of burial objects found in their wooden and brickwork tombs attests to the lavish life syle of these Chinese officials, merchants, and colonial overloads in Lelang's capital. -- "Korea, Old and New", pp 14.
The second point not only further denies the reliability of your refs and also states that many archaeological discoveries demonstrate the capital of Lelang commandery is in P'yongyang area, in another word deep in the Korean Peninsula. Therefore your argument is entirely wrong. EJcarter (talk) 03:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Maps and facts[edit]

It is really interesting to examine this blue map supposed to illustrate the "Four Commanderies of Han".

First and foremost, the four Commanderies have to be FOUR, not three. The red topmost/leftmost thing, 汉四郡, is not a Commandery, but a legend, stating the topic of the map. Therefore, two Commanderies are missing. Namely:

  • 臨屯郡, 임둔군, Lintun=Imdun
  • 真番郡, 진번군, Zhenfan=Jinbeon

One cannot argue that these commanderies have disappeared in the +0003 year after the erroneous date chosen by Bede the Venerable, since the

  • 帶方郡, 대방군, Daifang=Daebang Commandery

only appeared 200 years later.

Moreover, the reason why the

  • 玄菟郡, 현도군, Xuantu=Hyeondo

Commandery has been renamed into 遼東郡, i.e. Liaodong Commandery is not clear either.

Finally, what are these a), b), c), d) tags ?

Pldx1 (talk) 11:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)