Talk:Franco-Ottoman alliance

Assessment

I have assessed this article as meeting the B class criteria, although I suggest that it might be able to go higher. It seems like it could be at least a GA if someone (a significant contributor perhaps?) were willing to nominate and then go through the review process. One improvement I'd suggest, although it is only cosmetic, is to consolidate some of the footnotes using the WP:NAMEDREFS system. AustralianRupert (talk) 00:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

In section Alliance of Francis and Suleiman the it is claimed that "...However, the Ottomans would continue their campaigns in Central Europe, and besiege the Habsburg capital in the 1529 Siege of Vienna, and again in 1532..." A little correction; there was no siege of Vienna in 1532. (The second siege was 151 years later) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

No siege in 1532

In section Alliance of Francis and Suleiman the it is claimed that "...However, the Ottomans would continue their campaigns in Central Europe, and besiege the Habsburg capital in the 1529 Siege of Vienna, and again in 1532..." A little correction; there was no siege of Vienna in 1532. (The second siege was 151 years later) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

References needed

"Although the French accompanied most of the campaigns of Barbarossa, they rarely participated to the depredations made by the Turks, and were often horrified by the violence of these encounters, in which Christians were slaughtered or taken as captives."

I do not want to sound like an overly patriotic Turk, but I do not think that this sentence fits to the scientific tone of the rest of the article. It could be deleted or some references should be added if preferred to be kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.237.140.112 (talk) 09:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi! Although I don't like this particular sentence very much either, this is sourced from Edith Garnier, "L'Alliance Impie", p.141. It does seem that the Ottomans were quite cruel in their campaigns against Christians (but should it come as a surprise?, these are the cruelties of war), and that the French sailors accompanying them were quite embarrassed by these violences against their correligionnists. This is based on the account of Jehan Gallery, who was the ship doctor for Baron de Saint-Blancard, who accompanied the Ottomans in 1537. He relates:

"We arrived at a desert city named Gazopolly (?). There we did much damage to the poor Greeks and Venitians... Then we set fire to the city, but elsewhere there was much worse: the Turkish villains not only displayed cruelty towards animals but also towards men, women, daughters, young and old. Some were killed with swords, other had their neck half severed, an arm cut down, a body pierced by a dagger, poor girls were sold for a few coins, small naked children were carried accross their shoulders like sheep, and other such incredible cruelties."

Sometimes, the French would hide people to avoid capture by the Ottomans:

"[Saint-Blancard] ordered all his soldiers to capture the greatest possible of men, women and children, and to take them on the galleys... They were nourished and more than anything kept hidden in secret." The following day, Saint-Blancard would sail back on the pretext of fetching water, and release them "and give them some moneys". I guess the cruelty was real, and that the French sailors must have felt quite ambivalent about it. It's not anything against the Ottomans: Christians in Muslim lands have sometimes done things just as terrible. Best regards Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 20:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the April uprising of 1876 in the Turkish colony of Bulgaria [1]

According to a contemporary report by Walter Baring, a secretary of the British Embassy to the Ottoman Empire, the Muslim civilian population was not significantly affected.[7][8] This was also substantiated by the reports of Eugene Schuyler and James F. Clarke, according to whom very few peaceful Muslims were killed.[9] This has been accepted by modern historians; for example, according to Richard Shannon fewer than 200 Muslims were killed, very few of them non-combatants.

The Ottoman response was immediate and severe. They mobilized detachments of regular troops and also irregular bashi-bazouks. These forces attacked the first insurgent towns as early as 25 April. The Turkish forces massacred civilian populations, the principal places being Panagurishte, Perushtitza, Bratzigovo, and Batak (see Batak massacre) … The most detailed contemporaneous account was that of Eugene Schuyler. After visiting some of the sites, Schuyler published a report detailing the atrocities. He reported that fifty-eight villages had been destroyed, five monasteries demolished, and fifteen thousand rebels killed. … According to British and French figures, 12,000–15,000 Bulgarian civilians were massacred during the uprising …

But let me tell you what we saw at Batak ... The number of children killed in these massacres is something enormous. They were often spitted on bayonets, and we have several stories from eye-witnesses who saw the little babes carried about the streets, both here and at Olluk-Kni, on the points of bayonets. The reason is simple. When a Mohammedan has killed a certain number of infidels he is sure of Paradise, no matter what his sins may be ... It was a heap of skulls, intermingled with bones from all parts of the human body, skeletons nearly entire and rotting, clothing, human hair and putrid flesh lying there in one foul heap, around which the grass was growing luxuriantly. It emitted a sickening odour, like that of a dead horse, and it was here that the dogs had been seeking a hasty repast when our untimely approach interrupted them ... The ground is covered here with skeletons, to which are clinging articles of clothing and bits of putrid flesh. The air was heavy, with a faint, sickening odour, that grows stronger as we advance. It is beginning to be horrible.

— Eyewitness account of J. A. MacGahan on Turkish atrocities in Bulgaria, in a letter to the London Daily News of August 22, 1876[25]

Prominent Europeans, including Charles Darwin, Oscar Wilde, Victor Hugo, and Giuseppe Garibaldi, spoke against the Turkish behavior in Bulgaria.

“Often in spite of their religion they [i.e. Turkish Muslims] have a sense of human justice and natural kindness which is noteworthy. Let me illustrate [start page 39] this by a story which I had at the time from my friend the late Dr Long, whom I knew for a quarter of a century as the vice-president of Robert College. [see note 1] In 1877 the villages around Constantinople were crowded with refugees from Bulgaria. [see note 2] The worst form of typhus prevailed, and was largely increased by the poverty of the sufferers. Dr Long visited, always gratuitously, the cases near the college.” Dr Long visits a refugee family to care for the sick. The wife tells him: “’We were living in a Bulgarian village ; our next-door neighbour was a Christian. He was always kind to us. Our children played with his, and when I wanted lettuce or an onion, I was welcome to take it from the giaour's [see note 3] garden. Then one night my husband came home and told me that the padisha [the Persian title of the Sultan] had sent word that we were to kill all the Christians in our village, and that he would have to kill our neighbours. I was very angry, and told him that I did not care who gave such orders, they were wrong. These neighbours had always been kind to us, and if he dared to kill them Allah would pay us out. I tried all I could to stop him, but he killed them — killed them with his own hand, Hekim. Then, when the war began, we came here. Allah has taken our children, and he will take my husband. Thank you, Hekim, all the same, but you can't be of any use against Allah's sentence. I shall not die, but my husband will ‘ —and he did.” (Sir Edwin Pears, Turkey and Its People, London: Methuen and Co., 1911, pp 38-39)

https://archive.org/details/turkeyitspeople00pearuoft

NOTES

1. Robert College was an American secondary shool located in what was then called Constantinople and is now called Istanbul. Whereas in the US “college” means an institute of higher education, in England “college” means an institute of secondary education, or high school. “Founded in 1863, Robert College is the oldest continuously operating American school outside the United States.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_College

2. Turkish settlers who had fled Bulgaria in the course of the Bulgarian insurrection of 1976 and the subsequent Bulgarian war of independence against Turkish colonialism, which succeeded thanks to a Russian intervention. After a Russian victory in the war of 1877-78 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1877%E2%80%931878) between the Russian and the Ottoman empires. Bulgaria was granted independence in 1878 by virtue of the peace treaty concluding that war, the Treaty of San Stefano. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Stefano

3. "Giaour" (Turkish: Gâvur) is an offensive Turkish word that means “pig” for infidel or non-believer. It is a traditional name applied by Muslims to Christians throughout the centuries. Nowadays in France many Mohammedans call non-Muslims “gavour” and similar terms, which is a variant of the same word. In Germany Muslims habitally call indigenous Germans “pigs” (“deutsches Schwein”).

References:

In France, Arabs call indigenous French people "pigs" (gavour or giaour), but they deny that they are being racists, because racism is something that pertains exclusivelty to white Europeans.

References in French translated into English:

From the Arabic gavur Gawri, meaning pig, and, by extension, infidels. According to the linguist Majid El Houssi, the word has lost its pejorative connotation in North Africa, but nowadays is used in the slang of the French suburbs ["banlieues", i.e. North African ghettos], where it is used to designate indigenous French people, pejoratively or neutrally.

https://fr.wiktionary.org/w...

gwer (identical male and female)

(offensive) White; Western; European.

Alain, a teacher, is aware of the situation: “We do indeed sometimes hear racist insults like“ Dirty gwer, Dirty gaouri! "- (Tarik Yildiz, Anti-white racism: not talking about it, a denial of reality, Puits de Roulle, Paris, 2014)

You remain a gwer, you are afraid of the street

Small malaise with Africa - (Grems, La gwerre, 2016)

(offensive) Christian, non-Muslim.

https://fr.wiktionary.org/w...

Berlin - Muslim 4th graders call classmate “German pig”

Der Tagesspiegel, Berlin, 17 Apr 2018

Called a "German pig"

"Our son is in fourth grade at a middle school and has been bullied since his first year there. He was abused, beaten and kicked because he is German. Classmates call him ‘German pig’, 'Christian pig' and 'German potato'. At his school the majority of the children are immigrants. Most of them are Muslims. .... Once he had to spend a weekend in hospital because a classmate had kicked him so hard in the stomach that the doctors did not know if any organs were injured.”

Mobbing in Berliner Schulen: "Vom Krankenwagen aus der Schule abgeholt“ [Bullying in Berlin schools – Evacuated from school by ambulance], Der Tagesspiegel, Berlin, 17 April 2018

https://www.tagesspiegel.de... Banderswipe (talk) 14:31, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Too many images

I already deleted some, but this article still got too many images. Can anybody see which images are really needful?Jeff5102 (talk) 09:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

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GA Nomination

I'm thinking of nominating this for GA - but I've been entirely uninvolved in its preparation. Any comments from the regular editors about a possible GA nomination? Seraphim System ^(talk) 10:02, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Louis XIII in 1607?

An embassy was again sent to Louis XIII in 1607:

There must be a mistake in this line. Either it was sent to Henry IV or it didn't happen in 1607, because Louis XIII did not become king until 1610. 2602:306:CFEA:170:A8DD:8229:84C0:2CDE (talk) 01:27, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Examples of alliances and other agreements between Christian and Mohammedan rulers

The article contains a truly asinine claim that could only have been made by someone profoundly ignorant of mediaeval history, to wit “The [Franco-Ottoman] alliance was exceptional, as the first non-ideological alliance in effect between a Christian and Muslim state, and caused a scandal in the Christian world.” I propose changing it to: “Although there had previously been hundreds of alliances during the Middle Ages between various Christian states on the one hand and Muslim states on the other in such varied settings as the Iberian peninsula, the Levant during the Crusades, Sicily and elsewhere, this was the first alliance between a Christian great power and a Mohammedan great power ever since the alliance against the eastern Roman Empire between the Carolingian empire and the Abbasid caliphate in the 8th century.”

Grounds: Some examples of alliances and other agreerments between Christian and Mohammedan rulers

The reconquista was not a religious war. Moorish and Christian princes were often allies, or one was the vassal of the other. Until the 12th century, in Portugal, and largely also in Spain, struggles between Christians and Muslims were seen as local quarrels. Only afterward were they reinterpreted as a fundamental confrontation between opposing beliefs. Source: Writing the Reconquest: The Crafting of Historical Memory in Twelfth-Century Portugal Stephen Lay, 2010

King Alfonso VI of Leon would declare war on Muslim states or make treaties with them depending on pragmatic political considerations. The author of the Vita Geraldi describes a world in which mutually beneficial agreements between local nobles and their Muslim peers were common. Source: Writing the Reconquest: The Crafting of Historical Memory in Twelfth-Century Portugal Stephen Lay, 2010

“At the beginning of the eleventh century Portuguese society was, in common with the neighbouring Spanish kingdoms, characterised by a fluidity in political, social and cultural forms. Identity tended to be constructed on local foundations and as a result there was an unusual degree of tolerance toward religious and cultural differences. By the end of the eleventh century, however, this pragmatic tolerance had been challenged by a growing engagement with the Latin Christian culture of Europe.” Source: Interview with Stephen Lay https://www.medievalists.net/2009/11/interview-with-stephen-lay/ In 1187 the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick Barbarossa resolved to recapture Jerusalem from Saladin, en enterprise that became known as the Third Crusade. For this purpose he dispatched Godfrey of Wiesenbach to the [Mohammedan] Seljuk sultanate of Rûm to negotiate the passage of his army through their lands on the way to Jerusalem. “Because Frederick had signed a treaty of friendship with Saladin in 1175, he felt it necessary to give Saladin notice of the termination of their alliance. On 26 May 1188, he sent Count Henry II of Dietz to present an ultimatum to Saladin. The sultan was ordered to withdraw from the lands he had conquered, to return the True Cross to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and to make satisfaction for those Christians who had been killed in his conquests, otherwise Frederick would abrogate their treaty.” Source: Third Crusade, Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade In 1139 Mu'in al-Din Unur, the mamluk ("slave soldier") of the Seljuq prince of Mosul, Imad al-Din Zengi, seized Damascus, prompting Zengi—with Safwat al-Mulk's backing—to lay siege against Damascus the same year. In response, Damascus allied with the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem to resist Zengi's forces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus#Seljuq_and_Ayyubid_periods

On 2 September 1192 King Richard I of England and Saladin finalized the Treaty of Jaffa, which recognised Muslim control over Jerusalem but allowed unarmed Christian pilgrims and merchants to visit the city. In 1226, the Ayyubid sultan of Egypt al-Kamil began exploring peace with the West, dispatching the emir Fakhr ad-Din ibn as-Shaikh to meet Frederick II Barbarossa … By May 1227, al-Kamil was concerned for his sultanate, feeling increasingly boxed in. The arrival of the Crusaders began, and he was again considering his offer of Jerusalem made to Frederick II in 1226, that appearing to him as the only viable option. As described above, the sultan al-Kamil was in a desperate civil conflict in 1226. Having unsuccessfully tried negotiations with the West beginning in 1219, he again tried this approach. The sultan sent the emir Fakhr ad-Din ibn as-Shaikh to Frederick asking him to come to Acre for discussions, offering return of much of the Holy Land to Christian control in exchange for military support against his brother al-Mu'azzam at Damascus. Fakhr ad-Din reportedly was somewhat amazed when he reached Palermo and discovered that Frederick spoke Arabic, had admiration for Muslim society and contempt for Rome.[37] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Crusade

Frederick realised that his only hope of success in the Holy Land was to negotiate for the return of Jerusalem as he lacked the manpower to engage in battle. He sent Thomas of Aquino and Balian of Sidon to inform the sultan of his arrival in the Holy Land. Al-Kamil was friendly but non-committal. In reply, Frederick received the ambassadors of the sultan, including Fakhr ad-Din ibn as-Shaikh, at the Hospitaller camp at Recordane, near Acre. The sultan relocated from Nablus to Hiribya, northeast of Gaza, and Thomas and Balian were sent to resume negotiations.[55] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Crusade

On 2 September 1192 King Richard I of England and Saladin finalized the Treaty of Jaffa, which recognised Muslim control over Jerusalem but allowed unarmed Christian pilgrims and merchants to visit the city.

In 1226, the Ayyubid sultan of Egypt al-Kamil began exploring peace with the West, dispatching the emir Fakhr ad-Din ibn as-Shaikh to meet Frederick II Barbarossa … By May 1227, al-Kamil was concerned for his sultanate, feeling increasingly boxed in. The arrival of the Crusaders began, and he was again considering his offer of Jerusalem made to Frederick II in 1226, that appearing to him as the only viable option. As described above, the sultan al-Kamil was in a desperate civil conflict in 1226. Having unsuccessfully tried negotiations with the West beginning in 1219, he again tried this approach. The sultan sent the emir Fakhr ad-Din ibn as-Shaikh to Frederick asking him to come to Acre for discussions, offering return of much of the Holy Land to Christian control in exchange for military support against his brother al-Mu'azzam at Damascus. Fakhr ad-Din reportedly was somewhat amazed when he reached Palermo and discovered that Frederick spoke Arabic, had admiration for Muslim society and contempt for Rome.[37] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Crusade

In January 1229 ... al-Kamil was occupied with a siege in Damascus against his nephew an-Nasir Dā’ūd. He then agreed to cede Jerusalem to the Franks, along with a narrow corridor to the coast. .... The treaty was concluded on 18 February 1229, and also involved a ten-year truce. The English bishops Peter des Roches and William Briwere were witness to the signing. No complete copy of the treaty has survived, either in Latin nor Arabic. In it, al-Kamil surrendered Jerusalem with the exception of some Muslim holy sites. Frederick also received Bethlehem and Nazareth, part of Sidon district, and Jaffa and Toron, dominating the coast. Other lordships may have been returned to Christian control, but sources disagree. It was, however, a treaty of compromise. The Muslims retained control over the Temple Mount area of Jerusalem, the Jami Al-Aqsa, and the Dome of the Rock. The Transjordan castles stayed in Ayyubid hands. Whether Frederick was permitted to restore Jerusalem's fortifications was unclear, although the Crusaders did in fact restore Jerusalem's defensive walls.[59] ... The agreement, known sometimes as the Treaty of Jaffa,[60] also included the agreement signed by the different Ayyubid rulers at Tell Ajul near Gaza, of which, from al-Kamil's perspective, the treaty with Frederick was just an extension,[61] which allows this agreement to be also called the Treaty of Jaffa and Tell Ajul.[62] Frederick seems to have pledged his support to the sultan against all enemies, including Christian ones. The other Crusader states––Principality of Antioch and County of Tripoli––would receive no support in the event of war with the Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Crusade Banderswipe (talk) 13:45, 31 August 2022 (UTC)