Talk:Frontier Force Regiment

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FF Reg not formed in 1846[edit]

As I understand it, the FFR was not formed as such until 1923. A frontier brigade was raised by LT. Col. Lawrence under the General Order No. 2457 dated 14th Dec 1846 which comprised 4 Regiments of Infantry, a company of artillery and the Guides. The 4 infantry regiments were named in 1847 the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Sikhs. In the 1903 re-organisation they were re-named 51st, 52nd, 53rd and 54th Sikhs (Frontier Force). In 1923 they became 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th BNs of 12 Frontier Force Regiment. In the reorganisation of the Pakistan Army post partition, they became 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th Bns Frontier Force Regiment. My sources for this are "History of the 1st Sikh Infantry, 1846 - 1886" published in Madras in 1887 and "Sons of John Company" by John Gaylor Kirrages 15:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Overlapping pages: 12 Frontier Force Regiment and frontier Force Regiment[edit]

I also see that Wiki has a page on the 12th Frontier Force Regiment, which is the same thing (although modern FFReg is a merger of 12th FFReg, 13th FF Rifles etc). Should these pages not be merged?Kirrages 16:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

History[edit]

Surely this regiment was formed by the British Raj, and then passed into the Pakistan military at independence. This should be mentioned. 'Today the Regiment stands out in all the professional fields and has truly rocked the enemy on many movements with the LABBAIK slogan.' This doesn't sound very NPOV. 145.253.108.22 16:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Corps of Guides[edit]

The Guides infantry was integrated into the FFReg when the 12th FFR was formed in 1922, becoming its 5th battalion, not in 1957 when the old FFReg, FFRif and Pathan Regiments were merged. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

But i think i have read it somewhere that, still some of the element of Corps of Guide existed after independence of Pakistan, but can't find where i read that. Do you know the history of the current "Guides Cavalry". It was separated from FF Regiment after independence of Pakistan. --SMS Talk 11:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
In the 1922 reorganisation the Guides Cavalry remained separate and were allocated a cavalry regiment number: 10th (QVO Corps of Guides) Cavalry FF. They remained as such through WWII and were allocated to Pakistan at partition. Don't know what happened to them then. Is there a mechanised recce or armoured regiment that looks like them in today's Pakistan Army? I don't see them in the (endless!) list of FFR battalions in the FFR article. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 11:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes! the armoured battalion named "Guides Cavalry" still exists, which is said to be separated from the Corps of Guide! It is nowadays located at Karachi. And one the general of Pak Army if you know General Mohammad Yousaf was also from Guides Cavalry battalion. Well about its inclusion in FFR battalions list, i didn't add it there because FFR is now considered to be an Infantry regt. So thats why Guides and some other units like 1st SP Artillery(which was previously a battery and known as 2nd Royal Kohat and 3rd Peshawar Mountain Batteries), 11 Cavalry(PAVO Cavalry).etc aren't listed among FFR units. --SMS Talk 12:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
As you can see here too [1] and the Guides Cavalry were recently handed over Al-Khalid tanks[2]. --SMS Talk 12:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Guides Cavalry, PAVO, 23,24,25 Cavlry and 41 Horse in addition to the 1 (SP) is formally administered by the FF, the recruits undertake basic training at the FF Center though they are sent to their own centers for the specialised training.58.65.163.248 (talk) 06:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Informal peer review[edit]

As requested, here are a new suggestions about how this article could be improved and expanded.

Lead

This should ideally be two or three paragraphs, providing a summary of the contents of the article. I suggest the content hould be something like this:

  1. Par 1 - Who the Piffers are today ie "Regimental units and depot". Summarise "Origins of the regiment".
  2. Par 2 - Summarise "Battles fought" and "Overseas service"
  3. Par 3 - Summarise "Commanders" and "Battle Honours"
Origins of the regiment
  • Very nice section but I'd be tempted to expand the Pathan Regiment section. If you have the energy, a short separate article on this regiment would be good, summarised in this article, and linked.
  • Is there any material you can add on British India history? I believe some Piffers won Victoria Crosses.
Regimental units and depot
  • I've merged these sections into one section as they were both very short. However, it shouldn't take much work to expand them back into one really good section, with three or four good length sub-sections.
  • It would be good to explain how this huge 52-battalion regiment is organised. I suspect for ease of organisation it is internally grouped into brigade style units, each with its own commanding officer, artillery section, cavalry (armoured) section, air mobile support etc.
  • Is the regiment entirely volunteer? I read somewhere that they are better paid than other regiments ... is this true?
  • Are the Piffer armoured units, light or heavy armour, or both? What are equipped with?
  • Does it have any specialist units? Desert warfare? Mountain warfare? Peace-keeping trained?
  • Does it have any arrangements for retired Piffers? Many big regiments do have their own organisations to look after retired or wounded soldiers ...
  • You might mention the Piffer Association?
  • You might mention the Piffer Golf Club in Abbottabad and explain whether or nor it is still linked to the regiment.
  • Some background on the Piffer museum would be good. What are the major exhibits? When was it founded?
Regimental motto and colours
  • This could do with its own subsection somewhere.
Battles fought
  • These are entirely in the context of Pakistan—India disputes so a short introduction to the entire section explaining the main territorial issues would be helpful.
  • The Siachen Conflict and Kargill Conflict sub-section should be expanded.
Overseas service
  • Both the Saudia Arabia and Gulf War need expanding. Why were the Piffers in Saudi Arabia, for example? What was Pakistan's involvement in the Gulf War? At whose request were they in the Gulf? Were other Islamic troops involved?
Nishan-e-Haider Recipients
  • You could provide a description of how these officers won their Nishan-e-Haiders. (It this generally awarded posthumously?)
  • You could expand the section by adding "Hilal-e-Jurat" recipients. It seems notable to me and would give you useful extra material.
Copy-editing and MoS

I've lightly copy-edited the article to tidy up inconsistencies. The major stuff includes:

  • Mixes American English spellings ("center", "honor", "rumors", "armored") with Commonwealth English ones ("criticise", "rancour", "analyse", "armoured"). Should all be in Commonwealth English (official version for Pakistan). See my unofficial checklist for quick spelling look ups.
  • I've replaced 2 FF, 6 FF, etc in lists with "2nd FF", "6th FF", etc because I think it makes them easier to read.
  • Where sentences started with a number ("8 and 18 FF fought at the Lahore front), I've added a "The". It looks tidier.
  • I've changed references to martyrdom to "killed" or "fallen". Not all readers will understand the Islamic context and might be confused by it. Wikipedia is best written from a neutral point of view.
  • I change the reference to an "immortal attack" as this could be seen as a peacock term, (that is, boastful rather than encyclopedic).

Stuff that needs to be looked at:

  • all the references to "PIFFERS" probably need changing to "Piffers". The name in caps looks very clunky in the text and probably doesn't comply with WP:MOSCAPS.

Overall, nice work so far and very promising. I'll be very happy to look at the article again later, if you need further input. All the best, --ROGER DAVIES talk 07:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I am working on these suggestions as you can find here, but the main problem arising is the unavailability of sources, I am unable to find online sources. Specially for adding new section like Motto and Colours.. I personally have some knowledge about them but that will again constitute to original research. Any ideas! --SMS Talk 20:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. Are there any books? In the motto and colours section you could find a source for what the Pakistani army's uniform generally is, explain that and then explain the difference? --ROGER DAVIES talk 20:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Almost done, but still some little details may be added. --SMS Talk 08:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: The talk page banner[edit]

Just adding this comment to generate a newer version of the page for you to check SMS. Arun Reginald (talk · contribs) 20:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! its appearing fine now. --SMS Talk 19:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the barnstar. By the way, I had devised this new category called the Category:B-Class Pakistan articles with unmet criteria to list all the B-Class articles that had no way of being listed. Arun Reginald (talk · contribs) 20:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit notes[edit]

I've finally got round to it - apologies for the wait! I'll post comments and questions below, and add to them as I go. EyeSerenetalk 11:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

General comments[edit]

  • As a general observation, the article perhaps over-uses sub-headings at the moment, making the TOC over-long. It may be possible to reduce these by merging some sections together, but this will impact on the article organisation. Your thoughts?
Its true that the article has over sub-headings, as you already have minimized the TOC a little and I think its ok, so if you feel it is still lengthy you can merge some more sections. --SMS Talk 06:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks. We'll see how it works out ;) EyeSerenetalk 12:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Referencing: I think the article is reasonably well-referenced, although it does contain a few statements that need citing. I'll tag these as I go along, if that's ok.
Sure! If I couldn't find a source to any tagged statements, I will tell you, so you can remove that statement. SMS Talk 20:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Reference formatting: there are a lot of references to Akram, and these are at present grouped under a single citation to pages 1-34 of The Piffers. I think we will need to be more specific here and actually give a separate page number for each citation. I realise this may be quite a bit of work, but if this article eventually heads FA-wards after GA, it will ensure everything is in place. I would recommend using Harvard referencing (I can help with this if you supply the page numbers, since we'll need to format the citations anyway at some point).
Sure! SMS Talk 20:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I have formatted references to multiple pages of same book using Harvard referencing. Not sure if others need to be done like this too. --SMS Talk 20:21, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Sources: It might be worth getting hold of one or two more paper sources - Akram and Condon alone seems a little light for such a significant military unit as the FF. A couple of Google Books searches (here and here) turned up "The wardens of the marches: a history of the Piffers, 1947-1971" by Mohammed Attiqur Rahman (1980), which looks useful, and also "The Glorious Piffers, 1843-1995" by Mohammad Nawaz Khan (1996)

Lead[edit]

  • I'll leave this until last, as it will need to reflect the rest of the article.

Origins of the Regiment[edit]

  • I've undertaken a fairly extensive reorganisation of this section: I have tried to tie together the different threads and reduce the duplication of information from other articles (some of them are quite short, eg 13th Frontier Force Rifles, and were duplicated almost in their entirety). I think it also helps to make the article less "listy" and of course reduces the TOC. However, I made some pretty big changes, so if you're not happy with anything let me know!
I think its fine! --SMS Talk 06:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • There is no Pathan Regiment article, so I've moved the original content here (so it doesn't get lost):

The Pathan Regiment was raised after the independence of Pakistan on November 1, 1948. The purpose of the establishment of this regiment is said to pacify the Pathans of the North-West Frontier Province, who were double minded at the time of partition. Initially the regimental depot was at Dera Ismail Khan but it relocated to Kohat in 1949. Later, in 1956, this regiment was merged with others to form the Frontier Force Regiment with its regimental depot at Abbottabad.[1]

The battalions which were assigned to Pathan regiment were:[1]

  • 1 Pathan Regiment: 4/12 Frontier Force Regiment (Previously the 54th Sikhs)
  • 2 Pathan Regiment: 4/13 Frontier Force Rifles (Previously 57th Wilde's Rifles)
  • 3 Pathan Regiment: 15/13 Frontier Force Rifles (Originally drawn from 4/13 Frontier Force Rifles)
Should I create a stub article on it? --SMS Talk 06:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Up to you - it might be worth doing if you don't mind. EyeSerenetalk 10:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Dates: the article gives both 1956 and 1957 for the formation of the FFR - which is correct?
Well I looked at this and wonder why it didn't came to my mind. This source states that the merger took in 1957 and this one says that it was 1956. Surprising thing is this that both are from the same website. The booklet I got also states that Pakistan became a republic in 1956 and the same year FFR was transformed into its present form. Now I think it may be was 1956 or the amalgamation started in 1956 and continued some time in 1957. What do you think? --SMS Talk 06:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Condon has it as 1956 (pp. 592, xxi and xxii). Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Image caption: who is "Quaid"?
Again my mistake to write that without linking it anywhere. I have edited that image caption to more correct one. Besides Quaid-e-Azam(or Quaid) was the founder of Pakistan. --SMS Talk 06:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I've tabulated the btns section to get away from lists - I may have confused the 10th btn footnote by attributing it to 10FF (I'm not sure if it refers to that btn or the original 10/12 FFR).
I think Kirrages solved this issue. --SMS Talk 06:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Regimental units and depot now two sections: Composition and Headquarters[edit]

  • I moved part of the lead to this section, and split it into "Composition" and "Headquarters". Please feel free to make any alterations necessary!
  • I brought this sentence here: "Kohat being the largest and popular Piffer station became the home of Piffers after World War I." as I'm not sure what it's saying. It seems to contradict the previous sentence that says the regimental depot is in Abbottabad. Is Kohat currently an important FFR station, or does this refer to a previous period in history? (also, it needs citing).
Actually it refers to past, that Kohat was a popular Piffer station. SMS Talk 20:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps that could go back in then, although we'd need a source. EyeSerenetalk 17:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I removed the link to Shaheed from 'fallen' - while it's understandable how it got there, I don't think it's suitably neutral for Wikipedia. (edit) I ended up removing the whole sentence - it's obvious who the memorial commemorates :)
True! it's not neutral! SMS Talk 20:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Is there an English translation of "Yadgar-e-Shuhada"?
Well Yadgar means memorial and Shuhada means Martyrs, so I think it can be Martyr Memorial or only Memorial. What do you say? --SMS Talk 20:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Would "Memorial to the Martyrs" be fair? Presumably 'Shuhada' is the plural of 'Shaheed' then? I don't have any NPOV problems using the word 'martyr' here - it's the name of the memorial after all! EyeSerenetalk 17:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Is the "Roll of Honour of Martyrs" the official name of the memorial plates? Again, I think it would be good to avoid 'Shaheed' connotations if we can (given that 'Martyr' has a very specific, non-neutral meaning in English).
Well in the Akram's booklet it is mentioned "Roll of Honour". SMS Talk 20:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I'll change that. EyeSerenetalk 17:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Not really part of this copyedit, but for the future a photograph of the memorial would be good to have in the article.
I have one in the booklet which mentions no copyrights at all(which I had uploaded), but I was advised that an image without a copyright claim cannot be uploaded. If you think it can be I can scan it again and upload it. One is here too, again don't know about it's copyright status. SMS Talk 20:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll look into it and see if I can track down the copyright. EyeSerenetalk 17:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Update: I've emailed the site owner to see if we can get permission to release the image under the GFDL. We'll have to wait and see... EyeSerenetalk 19:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Do we have a (sourced) numerical strength for the FF?
I tried but couldn't find sourced exact numerical strength. A rough estimate can be made but I don't think it will be of any worth. Since it is an infantry regiment and an Infantry Battalion of Pakistan Army typically has 4 companies, with a total strength of 600-900[3]. So the strength of the regiment may be 600-900 x 52 that is 31200-46800. SMS Talk 20:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure you're right about the numbers, but if you have no source then you're also right to leave it out. EyeSerenetalk 17:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Battles Fought[edit]

  • I've removed a few more 'Shaheed' references (I think these will probably keep creeping back in though, for perfectly understandable reasons - you'll have to watch for this!)
Sure! I will keep an eye. Please apologize me for taking that much time to reply, I may take another 24 Hours because of a little busy schedule I am having nowadays. Thanks! --SMS Talk 19:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
No problem - I'm in the same situation! EyeSerenetalk 19:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I've expanded the sections regarding the different conflicts to give a little background on each one. I've tried to do this in a neutral way - I realise it can be a pretty controversial area - but if I've written anything you're not happy with or that's inaccurate, feel free to put something better.
  • I've also added quite a lot of 'citation needed' tags. Although I don't normally like doing this, because it can make the article look messy and upset good editors, I hope it will help to pin down what we'll need to source when we get to the references. Again, please feel free to make a start on filling them in, preferably with page numbers (I probably won't be much help with this!). Some things I've managed to source from other articles.
Added a lot of references. --SMS Talk 20:20, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Kargil Conflict: should this be named the "Kargil War" per the main article? I've read the footnote there, and there seems to be a few choices!
I have changed it to Kargil War. --SMS Talk 20:20, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I've also renamed the section to "Kashmir dispute", as I think it describes the contents better. Is this ok?
The 1971 war was not focused on Kashmir (though war was fought at Kashmir in 1971 but Kashmir dispute was not the cause of the war), so it might not be appropriate to name the whole section as Kashmir dispute. --SMS Talk 20:20, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't think we can really speculate as to the identity of the soldier on Time Magazine (unless you know otherwise), so I've generalised the caption. I've also moved the image - I know it doesn't belong with the Siachen Conflict section, but it was causing formatting problems where it was. Maybe you can suggest something better?
Image no more exists. --SMS Talk 20:20, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Overseas Service[edit]

  • Again trying to reduce the ToC, I've combined this into a single section (I think the sub-sections were slightly short to have their own headings anyway).
  • I've renamed this to "International duty" (although perhaps "Foreign service" or something would be better?) Having done so, I'm now wondering if my rename of the previous section (to "Kashmir dispute") might be better renamed again as something like "Domestic duty". What do you think?

Commanders[edit]

Battle Honours[edit]

Motto and Colours[edit]

In Media[edit]

Alliances[edit]

Image copyright problem with Image:KargilPak.png[edit]

The image Image:KargilPak.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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Self published sources in the article[edit]

Do not restore self published sources as refs, this is extremely disruptive. spend time on getting better sources than reverting back an SPS into article space--DBigXray 22:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you checked the source for once? Assume Good Faith and don't call other's edits disruptive without verifying. --SMS Talk 05:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Well you preach others to assume good faith, do you actually follow what you preach? Hell no. You are accusing me of not looking at the source and sermoning me to follow AGF in the same line, what an irony. I have very well looked and read that source. Pakdef.info is a non-reliable WP:SPS that tweaks and modifies the content to serve its objective, nowhere reliable, get the actual source if you can and then use it, --DBigXray 06:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
    • ^ a b Bajwa, Mandeep Singh (2002). "The Pathan Regiment". Orbat.com website. Ravi Rikhye.  Note that there is a typo in this source. 4/12 was a Frontier Force Regiment battalion, not a Frintier Force Rifles one