Talk:Góngora (surname)

Requested move 5 March 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to change the status quo. Several different opinions here, including whether the plant is sufficiently ambiguous from the name, and whether the poet is primary topic. I don't see any sort of consensus to change things though, and there is certainly some support for the idea that the current set up is correct, backed up by evidence. I actually think there might be a case for scrapping the disambiguation page altogether. I've changed the hatnote on Luis de Góngora to just reference teh genus directly, since that's the only other entry that isn't already covered. (non-admin closure) — Amakuru (talk) 11:20, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Góngora (surname) → Góngora; also related: Góngora (disambiguation) – This is not as much a move request, but a 'disambiguation to be discussed'. Until recently, Góngora was a redirect to Luis de Góngora. Has been since 2005. User:Dentren believes the poet shouldn't be the primary topic. The two of us hadn't finished discussing that one yet, and User:Wbm1058 got involved believing Gongora should be the primary topic, and that's a plant, not a poet. Enough to merit a discussion it seems. Midas02 (talk) 02:36, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My view. I don't feel there's ambiguity between the plant and the Spanish surname, because of the accent. A hatnote on Gongora (plant) should state Góngora is a Spanish surname, and redirect to the surname page, which should catch anyone arriving there by mistake. Góngora should continue to redirect to the poet. An internet search learns that Góngora is widely used for the poet, not for other people. He seems to be the primary topic. All other people could be mentioned on the surname page. Since it exclusively contains people by that name, it should be a surname page, and not a disambiguation page. A hatnote can be added to redirect people to the plant, if required. --Midas02 (talk) 02:40, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning to leave as is - the plant is named after the surname of course, but the mononym with the accent is likely to mean the poet. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:55, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't necessarily disagree about Luis de Góngora being the primary topic, if indeed he is "widely considered (one of the two) most prominent Spanish poets of all time". Indeed the Spanish Wikipedia has him as primary topic; see es:Góngora. However es:Gongora redirects to es:Góngora (desambiguación) (the disambiguation), and the plant is parenthetically disambiguated at es:Gongora (planta). If the poet is the primary topic, then I think that Gongora should redirect to the poet. English keyboards don't directly support diacritics, and most English users will search for the poet by entering his anglicized name (i.e., the name without the diacritic). I don't understand why the Spanish wiki has the plant under the anglicized name, as it was named after another person named Góngora. Didn't the plant-naming people have unicode support in their computer systems? Meanwhile other languages don't specify a primary topic, and have the disambiguation either at the title without the diacritic (de:Gongora) or with it (it:Góngora). Portuguese has it like we do at the moment: the most prominent poet at pt:Góngora, and the plant at pt:Gongora. I'm open to having no primary topic, but to be comfortable with disambiguation-by-diacritic I'd like to see other examples of where we are already doing that without any confusion or other issues. Also, as there is a strong desire to have a separate surname article, rather than a consolidated dab that includes a section for surnames, es:Góngora (apellido) has a section on the history of the surname, which could be translated to English so that we can have a proper surname article which is more than just a name disambiguation. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:15, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose moving Góngora (surname) to Góngora. wbm1058 (talk) 19:28, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I like the hatnote that's currently at Luis de Góngora. Probably the deftest way of handling any ambiguity. —Xezbeth (talk) 19:54, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I my opionion "Góngora" should be a disambiguation and not a redirect. I don't see exactly how the poet is established as the primary topic, for example the acclaimed [1] Chilean historian Mario Góngora is usually referred as Góngora. Dentren | ^Talk 01:53, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Try running a Google search on 'Góngora'. The first twenty to thirty links all seem to be about the poet. But feel free to bring other arguments to the table to back up your position. --Midas02 (talk) 12:09, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Google is no interface of reality, but lets use it as point of reference. When doing a search with "Góngora" "-wikipedia" Mario Gongora is in second place[2]. Further a search in google scholar brings up slightly more Mario Góngora than Luis de Góngora [3]. Dentren | ^Talk 13:09, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are two problems with the links you've given. The first link is a search on Chilean Google, so its results will be biased for Spanish and a Chilean context. The Google scholar link is also set up for Spanish, so will again be biased. In both cases, the neutral google.com should be used in English. Doing so, the searches will yield many more results pointing to Luis de Góngora. --Midas02 (talk) 03:32, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.