Talk:Greeks in Russia and Ukraine

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Requested move 16 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Split. After over a month, consensus has formed that the article title should use modern-day country names. Those article titles then imply a scope that covers any history. Some minor disgreements remain on how to split to best manage the overlap between this and several other articles (those for USSR successor states and those for older historical periods of the region). These disagreements can be worked out in draft space, then executed in mainspace after consensus has formed on the split. The drafting process can also help mitigate the chicken-egg scenario of article scope and title, which seems to have happened here. Cheers! (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 13:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

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Greeks in Russia and the Soviet Union → Greeks in Russia – Similar articles generally just say "Russia" while still including the group's Soviet-era history, which makes sense, as Russia is generally accepted as the successor of the Soviet Union. Examples include Ethnic Chinese in Russia, Japanese people in Russia, and Iranians in Russia. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 22:03, 16 May 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Spekkios (talk) 01:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose If anything, it should be renamed with reference to the modern countries inhabited by the subject of the article: Greeks in Russia and Ukraine, although there are also Caucasus Greeks who might be included. FYI, the Soviet Union is generally accepted to have twelve successor states and three formerly occupied states. —Michael Z. 13:27, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Your alternative isn't a bad idea. The article puts heavy focus on Russian and Ukrainian Greeks and the only mention of Caucasus Greeks in the Soviet Union is unsourced. Also, I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the fact that Russia is generally considered the primary successor of the USSR, having made up about 77% of its land and taking its spot on the UNSC, even if not the only one. --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 20:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Legally, the RF considers itself the sole continuation state, but this is disputed by Ukraine: the USSR ceased to exist, and I don’t know if a continuator is legally established. The normal meaning of successor is the state that now has sovereignty within some territory of an old one: Ukraine, not the RF, succeeded the USSR within its own borders, taking ownership of all assets there according to the principal of uti possidetis juris. Successors also inherit all of the treaty privileges and obligations, and all twelve successors did (e.g., Ukraine was also party to the INF Treaty, &c.). The RF is the largest successor by area, for whatever that’s worth, and it was given some assets by agreement of all the other successors, including the UNSC seat and foreign embassies. What is “generally considered the primary successor”? Sounds like orientalist or neo-colonial thinking to me. —Michael Z. 21:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

My apologies if I've offended you. I'm not saying it's justified, but that's how the Russian Federation considers itself, and the international community has generally been tolerant of this perspective. All of this is irreverent to the point I was trying make, so it was my mistake for bringing it up in the first place. My main point is that the RF controls a large majority of what was once the USSR, and the only mention of a Greek community not explicitly stated to be in Russian or Ukrainian territory has no citation, so your proposal works. Stand with Ukraine. --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I’m not offended, and that sounds like an accurate assessment. But see WP:systemic bias for some considerations. Cheers. —Michael Z. 21:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the article, I think we have to determine which of these are about Greeks in a territory, and which are specific modern or historical Greek peoples:

• Greeks in Armenia
• Greeks in Azerbaijan
• Greeks in pre-Roman Crimea
• Caucasus Greeks
• Greeks in Georgia
• Greeks in Kazakhstan
• Greeks in Kyrgyzstan
• Greeks in Moldova
• Pontic Greeks
• Greeks in Russia and the Soviet Union
• Ukrainian Greeks
• Greeks in Uzbekistan
• Urums
• Others?

 —Michael Z. 22:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Having skimmed most of these, it seems that the majority of them have a pronounced focus on historical events and don't really talk about the actual culture of these communities, which is a problem in and of itself. Anyway, it appears that except for Caucasus Greeks, Pontic Greeks, and Urums, all of the articles you listed are simply about Greeks in a territory (which makes the title of Ukrainian Greeks slightly misleading, in my opinion). --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 00:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. So there is still an overlap in scope between “Russia and the Soviet Union” and nine other articles, as I mention below. —Michael Z. 19:34, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• oppose this article should be about the historic USSR and the rest should be moved to relevant articles about Greeks in existing countries—blindlynx 13:40, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

  What do you propose? That only seems to work if we rename this article Greeks in the Soviet Union and create a separate Greeks in Russia (maybe not a bad idea). But even then, “Russia” denotes the still larger territory of the Russian empire before 1917, and both the USSR and Russian empire overlap with nine other articles listed above. —Michael Z. 19:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

  Basically that but—because of the territory thing you just mention—rename this one to Greeks in the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union and create a separate Greeks in Russia article—blindlynx 16:43, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  I can get behind that general idea, but the historical part of this article has four sections, about the Ancient world, Kyivan Rus, tsarist Russia, and the USSR. —Michael Z. 18:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  one of those has it's own article Greeks in pre-Roman Crimea and the other is basically just Bosporan Kingdom and a few lines about Rus'–Byzantine Relations that probably warrants its own article to be honest... at the very least that section is fine as a stand alone stub—blindlynx 01:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  It remains the case that this article covers 24 centuries before the Russian empire existed, so the proposed title is not suitable. —Michael Z. 15:13, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  neither is the current one for the same reason. I really don't see a way of doing this without splitting the article. Perhaps Greeks in the territory of the former USSR but that's super clumsy—blindlynx 16:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  Well, let’s agree what the article is about (or should be about): what is the full-text version of the defining geographical extent. Is it the Caucasus, the Russian Federation, and Ukraine, for example? Central Asia is mentioned too, but not very specifically. Eastern Europe and Eurasia seems to cover it, then. How central to the subject are the other coasts of the Black Sea that are in Southern Europe and Asia Minor? – only in the Ancient period, I think. —Michael Z. 18:59, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  If we are to rename the article based on what is is about now the your proposal of Greeks in Russia and Ukraine is best. That said there should be an articles about Greeks in the Russian Empire and Soviet Union and Greeks in Russia. Ancient and medieval Greeks in the region already have articles namely Bosporan Kingdom and Pontic Greeks#History—blindlynx 20:05, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Per nom. We already have the article Ukrainian Greeks so anything Ukraine-specific can go there. Vpab15 (talk) 22:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vpab15 rightly asked on my talk: Since you say there is a consensus to move to the modern-day country name, should it be moved as proposed to Greeks in Russia?. I clarify here, so anyone looking at the RM can also see my comments. There is consensus to move, but no consensus on the new title. WP:OTHEROPTIONS allows the closer to choose one based on policy and guidelines, but a title may preclude a split, which every participant said is needed. As long as a split eventually occurs, Greeks in Russia and Ukraine is the title that reflects the current, pre-split scope. The last sentence of WP:OTHEROPTIONS applies: And if anyone objects to the closer's choice, then instead of taking it to move review, they should simply make another move request at any time, which will hopefully lead the article to its final stable title [formatting original]. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 16:36, 29 June 2022 (UTC)