Talk:Grover Cleveland/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Therefore he is counted twice

The opening paragraph says: "Cleveland is the only president to serve two non-consecutive terms (1885–1889 and 1893–1897) and therefore is the only individual to be counted twice in the numbering of the presidents." The use of 'therefore' implies that the second statement follows logically from the first. It doesn't in this case (to me). Is it known why Cleveland is counted twice? Who decided this? Were any alternative methods – methods that do not have one person be two presidents – considered at the time? If there is any sourced information on the original reasoning, I think that would be very useful information to include in the article. 82.139.91.233 (talk) 11:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

It's how the U.S. government has always done it. I don't know if there's a better reason than that. I've read all of the sources cited in the article, and they don't say. --Coemgenus (talk) 13:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland's case seems to be the only time this problem has arisen, so it can't be "how the government has always done it" as it has only been done once. I would assume that either someone decided to do it this way around the time Grover Cleveland was elected for his second term, or this scenario was already described in some sort of government handbook, possibly written many years earlier. In the first case it would be interesting, but perhaps impossible, to find out who made that decision. In the second case it should be possible, but perhaps difficult, to find the original written source. 82.139.91.233 (talk) 16:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

It would be interesting. If you find out, please post the information here. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd say the bit "has always done it" doesn't mean it's a pattern, but rather that's how Cleveland has always been counted. If it ever happens again, with someone new, we'll get to see how they do it again. - Denimadept (talk) 18:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Not in office when Panic of 1893 Began

This slicing and dicing of months can be frustrating,, especially when subjected to partisan disagreement. The article says: "Disaster hit the nation a few months into his second term as the Panic of 1893 etc." The problem with that sentence is that the non-partisan NBER makes the calls on recessions and it states (http://www.nber.org/cycles/cyclesmain.html) that the 1893 Panic's down cycle began in January of 1893, two months before Cleveland took office. That recession/Depression ended June, 1894. A second recession hit in December, 1895 and continued through the inauguration of Cleveland's Republican successor.

National recessions were almost the normal state of affairs after the Civil War with eight beginning during the time between March, 1869 when Grant took office through the end of 1899 as indicated by the NBER chart. Monetary policy and economic understanding was rudimentary. I don't think this requires a major rewrite, but perhaps something along the lines of "in the early weeks of his term, Cleveland had to deal with the burgeoning economic disaster created by the Panic of 1893, set off by a series of bank failures.

Re election of 1896, it's true that the Republicans lost some seats that year, but they still held 57% while the populists had their only good election (some of the populist fusion candidates were seated then unseated by challenges).But the point is that it was the transformative election with the presidency taken into account because Republican leadership in Congress was cemented in for the next 36 years.

Cleveland was a conservative Democrat. The party was not happy with the result, which angered farmers, etc. As for blacks, Chinese and Indians, mentioned. He was the last of his kind, i.e. virtually indistinguishable from Conservative Republican of the period.-- although all of them might be raging liberals when compared to today's. There were legal challenges in that period that attracted attention. In the case of Chinese, the Chinese Exclusion Act barred Chinese from becoming naturalized U.S. Citizens, apart from restricting entry. Wong Kim Ark, who was born in the US, left the country and was barred from re-entry because officials said he could not be a citizen by naturalization. But in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) the Supreme Court ruled that he was a natural born citizen be virtue of the 14th amendment. Indians came under a different set of rules and they were not universally granted citizenship until 1924 by Congress. However, it was possible to be a native born citizen within the United States. I don't remember the case precisely but it was around 1880. Blacks are obvious because they were subjects of amendments and civil rights law. The South was the source of Jim Crow laws beginning in the 1890s and there were concerns about Southern abuses among both Republicans and Democrats in the north. Southern states did not revoke black voting rights through new constitutions from around 1900. Populist/Fusion candidates drew both black and white voters in the South, the last time that opportunity would occur for many years. Jmc9595 (talk) 04:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I changed the lede slightly to reflect your concerns about exactly when the Panic started. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

FAQ

I made an FAQ page to deal with the constant questions about why he is numbered the 22nd and 24th president. If anyone believes he can phrase it better than I have, by all means do so. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Cleveland was outraged at Wilson Gorman final bill

See: 1) "An outraged Cleveland grudgingly allowed the bill, ... to become law without his signature" [David M. Kennedy, The American Pageant (2010) p 456]; "Cleveland was angry and would not sign the bill." [William McKinley, apostle of protectionism by Skrabec (2008) p. 123; 3) "Cleveland, outraged at these changes, let the Wilson- Gorman Tariff become law...." [Northrup, Encyclopedia of Tariffs and Trade in U.S. History (2003) p 213] Rjensen (talk) 20:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, I was just going by the sources in the citation. "Outraged" is a bit purple for an encyclopedia's prose, if you ask me, but I'm content to leave it in if you want it. Clearly, he wasn't happy -- we can agree on that.

I am going to keep fixing the citations so they match the rest of the article, as WP:CITEVAR suggests. Back when it was first featured, the long citation for a book or article was at the bottom, and the only thing between the <ref> tags was: Author, ###. --Coemgenus (talk) 20:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad we're on the same wavelength! Cleveland had a REAL temper that he expressed in his messages. Rjensen (talk) 22:11, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the sense I got of him from what I've read is that he had very little patience for what he saw as corruption--which included much of everyday 19th-century politics! --Coemgenus (talk) 00:11, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Indian Policy

I believe an Indian policy would be appropriate for Grover Cleveland. Although the Indian wars were beginning to wain the President had authority over Indian affairs. My view is that Indian Policy needs to be in each presidential article up to Benjamin Harrison or the Battle of Wounded Knee. Cleveland signed the Indians Appropriations Act of 1889. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

We've been through this before. This section was the result. That's enough revisionism for one article, isn't it? --Coemgenus (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The Dawes Act is mentioned and was a central change in Indian policy. I do not consider Indian policy revisionism, rather, a policy most 19th Century presidents had to contend with. I believe there were Indian Wars under President Clevelands first administration. This was a suggestion to have a seperate Indian Policy section. I am looking at this through historical perspective in terms of Indian wars. The height of the Indian Wars was from approximately from 1865 to 1869 over 100. Grant was able to get Indian wars down to 15 per year in 1875, however, there was the Black Hills gold rush that jumped the Indian wars up to over 40. Then there was a gradual decrease from Hayes to Harrison. As long as Indian policy is mentioned, I believe that is important. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:33, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree It's a good idea to have an Indian policy section. (the section on Civil Rights covers an entirely different matter). the big issues involved land in Oklahoma. see also Andrew R. Heinze, "The morality of reservation: Western lands in the Cleveland Period, 1885-1897" Journal of the West, July 1992, Vol. 31 Issue 3, pages 81-89 Rjensen (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Rjensen that mentioning the reservation system and "big issues" in Oklahoma during Cleveland's Presidency would be good in an Indian policy section. Cleveland, as President was in charge of every Indian, since Indians were wards of the federal government during this time period. In terms of the readers point of view I believe that would give an understanding on how the 19th Century reservation system worked under each President. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is a link concerning Oklahoma Indian land settlement. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

"Proclamation 266 - Prohibition of Non-Indian Settlement of Oklahoma Lands in the Indian Territory" March 13, 1885 Cmguy777 (talk) 18:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Initially Cleveland banned settlement; however two days before he left office he signed into law that allowed Settlement into Oklahoma in a land run. Indian Appropriations Act 1889. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:51, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Rjensen for adding Indian policy segment. I believe Oklahoma land rush can be expanded in both Cleveland and Harrison articles. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:52, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

CMguy: what you wrote was fine -- I tightened up the language and added more citations. But in the future, could you please format your citation to the standard already in place on the page, as WP:CITEVAR directs? I don't like to spend my time on wiki cleaning up. --Coemgenus (talk) 19:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe I added a reference link. Thanks Coemgenus for the modification. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Cleveland's illegitimate child

I've heard that actually Cleveland had raped the woman, had her put in an asylum, and had her son put in an orphanage. Please check these facts. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.213.133 (talk) 23:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

It's your assertion. You check it. - Denimadept (talk) 05:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland's Hurricane?

The New York Times has a very interesting story about President Cleveland refusing to provide federal assistance in response to two major storms, and how unpopular the move made him. The article seems to suggest it played a role in why he didn't seek a third term. I was surprised that there was no mention of this in the Cleveland post, even though it's a FA. Should this perhaps be added to the story? Or was this event not as serious a part of Cleveland's presidency as the NY Times article suggests? — Hunter Kahn 15:42, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I wrote the majority of this article and don't recall anything about that in the sources. I suspect the two-term tradition and his lack of support in his own party were more important in Cleveland's decision. I'll be glad to take a look at Nevins and Graff this weekend, I still have them around here somewhere. --Coemgenus (talk) 01:27, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

before Cleveland there were plenty of hurricanes but I can't think of a single case of significant federal relief roles. I can't recall anyone at the time or since claiming this episode hurt Cleveland's political standing. Rjensen (talk) 02:40, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Jensen. The idea of federal assistance after a hurricane would have been very unusual in those days from any President or Congress, and I don't see anything in the sources that suggests it was an issue. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:05, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The New York Times article above was written by Matthew Alego. The next-to-last paragraph is sadly amusing. In his book on Cleveland, Alego goes into the August 27th hurricane and it's disastrous humanitarian aftermath on pages 166-170. After South Carolina Governor Tillman and Grover Cleveland both refused aide to the poorest of the poor during a depression no less, Clara Barton and the Red Cross stepped in. She averted a much greater disaster. Due to her efforts, about 75,000 Gulf Coast residents made it through the following nine months until the next harvest, in a hungry, but not starvation state. "[Cleveland's view that providing aide would be paternalism and unconstitutional] was a principled position, but not a very popular one, and it did little to endear Grover Cleveland to a public grown weary of the panic.". It may be true, as you say, that other Presidents denied aide in disasters, but the public was tired of that position and wanted more return on their tax money. Wordreader (talk) 18:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Popular vote

In the lede we have:

• He was the winner of the popular vote for president three times - in 1884, 1888, and 1892.

In the Election of 1888 we have:

• Republican victory in that state, where Cleveland lost by just 2,348 votes, was sufficient to propel Harrison to victory, despite his loss of the nationwide popular vote.

So, I'm wondering why there's this focus on the popular vote, which was not then and never has been the deciding factor in determining who becomes president. The second of my quotes reads as if it's something extraordinary or contrary to the general expectation to lose the popular vote but still win the presidency, or vice-versa. It's historically unextraordinary and constitutionally irrelevant. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 04:07, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Half a sentence doesn't make a focus. It is rather extraordinary, since it was only the second time it had ever happened. Please remember that that sentence was written years ago, and is not related to the election that will occur in three days. It's not intended to suggest anything about our modern politics. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:00, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The President won the popular vote, but lost the Electoral vote. This wasn't repeated until the 2000 election. So, it's quite noteworthy. Wordreader (talk) 18:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 November 2012

His name is spelled wrong throughout this article. The correct spelling of his name is Cleaveland. 65.112.236.30 (talk) 16:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 16:51, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

In The President is a Sick Man. . ., Alego goes back to Cleveland's GGGF, spelled as Aaron "Cleveland". He mentions on page 20 that Grover's distant relative, Moses Cleaveland (spelled with an "a"), migrated into what's now Ohio. The city is named for him, but due to a mapmaker's error, is spelled without the "a". Numerous early families altered their names over time. Apparently, the President's branch did so, too. Wordreader (talk) 18:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 December 2012

Statue of Liberty"We will never forget that Liberty has made here her home, nor shall chosen altar be neglected." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.91.39.239 (talk) 19:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

There's no mention of the Statue of Liberty in this article. What are you requesting? - Denimadept (talk) 22:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Nevins

Hi

There's a lot of reference using Nevins. But is-it Nevins 1932 or Nevins 1934 ? --TaraO (talk) 12:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

The 1932. The other is not, as far as I can tell, cited at all, so I deleted it. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

thx --TaraO (talk) 16:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

CANCER section

According to The President is a Sick Man : Grover Cleveland Survives a Secret Surgery at Sea and Vilifies the Courageous Newspaperman Who Dared Expose the Truth by Matthew Algeo, there are errors and omissions in the Cancer section.

• There seems to be disagreement in the article over the number of doctors involved in the President's oral surgery. It says ". . .Cleveland and his surgeon, Dr. Joseph D. Bryant. . ." and then "The surgeons operated. . ." The second version is correct. There were six doctors involved in the first surgery and five in the second, one of which was Bryant. (See pages 231-233 for a summary of the main characters involved in the episode.)

• The article misunderstands the purpose of the second surgery, or perhaps the source cited does. "During another surgery, Cleveland was fitted with a hard rubber dental prosthesis that corrected his speech and restored his appearance.[197]" This seems to strongly imply that the reason for the second surgery was to insert the prosthetic. There was no such thing as a dental implant in 1893. They had permanent bridges that were mounted to modified molars, but no implants. The second surgery was performed on July 17th after a new growth was noticed at the suture-line. More tissue was removed and the wound re-cauterized. This operation again occurred aboard the Oneida. (See page 116-117.)

• Kasson Gibson, a prosthodonist, wasn't involved in the surgeries, but in the aftercare. He made casts of the President's mouth, which still exist and are pictured in the book, and fabricated a removable vulcanized-rubber prosthetic, which has been lost. The prosthetic plugged the large gap in Cleveland's maxilla and allowed him to speak and eat again and restored his face to a normal appearance. The President would wear it for hours at a time. It was thought that the prosthetic was fitted to the President sometime between July 7th and July 11th or so. (See pages 114-115.)

• "Even when a newspaper story appeared giving details of the actual operation, the participating surgeons discounted the severity of what transpired during Cleveland's vacation.[197]" It was not only the doctors who discounted the severity of the President's condition (well, most of them), but also the President's staff and even Alexander McClure, the publisher of the Philadelphia Times and a close friend of Cleveland's. Dentist and anesthesiologist, Frederick Hasbrouck, who assisted in the first surgery, divulged the details to journalist E. J. Edwards. After the scoop appeared in print, the Presidential forces discredited Edwards, especially McClure, whose attacks in print against Edwards were particularly vicious. Since Cleveland was considered an honest man (bolstered by his handling of the Maria Halpin love affair), the public believed his version over that of Edwards. Because Bryant rightly suspected Hasbrouck of leaking the story of the surgery, he was not summoned for the second surgery and therefore didn't know it had occurred. (See the Liar chapter.) Not even Adlai Stevenson I, the Vice President, was allowed to know that Cleveland was sick and what happened to him. (Page 54.)

• The article states: "In the 1980s, analysis of the specimen finally confirmed the tumor to be verrucous carcinoma,[202] a low-grade epithelial cancer with a low potential for metastasis.[192]" According to Algeo, this happened in 1975 after Cleveland's family finally gave permission while retaining a veto if the result was "questionable", meaning of syphilitic origin, as the original doctors had wondered from the tumor's appearance. Verrucous carcinoma is a rare form that metastasizes slowly or not at all. Since it wasn't discovered until 1948, one cannot blame Cleveland's medical team for not identifying it. However, they treated it exactly right. Left in situ, the tumor would eventually have caused great pain and would have prevented the President from eating and would have eventually suffocated him. The pathologists now believe that the oral VC did not lead to Cleveland's death, but that if he did die of cancer, that it must have been a separate gastrointestinal cancer altogether. (See pages 223-226.)

• Another prominent surgeon who was part of the operating team was William Williams Keen. With Frances Cleveland's permission, he published an account of the whole episode ("The surgical operations on President Cleveland in 1893") in the Saturday Evening Post on 22 September 1917. He did this partly so that the world and the medical community would know about this remarkable episode and partly to vindicate E J Edwards. It can be read at InternetArchives: http://archive.org/details/surgicaloperati00keengoog

Algeo calls the whole episode "a brazen political cover-up that was as diabolical-and infinitely more successful than-Watergate." (See page ix and Watergate scandal.) This article sanitizes the importance and deep implications of these events.

Thank you for your time and a happy New Year to all, Wordreader (talk) 06:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

"Algeo calls the whole episode "a brazen political cover-up that was as diabolical..." that is certainly a wild exaggefration. There was nothing brazen about it and nothing diabolical about it. The President had private surgery for a condition that was not life threatening. It was indeed kept quiet, but it was not political and therefore it was not a "political cover-up". the whole story is entertaining, but not especially encyclopedic, as it tells more about Cleveland's rare, temporary medical condition then about his life and times. Rjensen (talk) 06:35, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Jensen, there's nothing diabolical here. The article covers the illness and its treatment well, without needless sensationalism. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request

The Church in the background of Grover Cleveland's birthplace is a Catholic Church, not a Presbyterian Church. The Presbyterian Church is further down Bloomfield Avenue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.70.214.32 (talk) 22:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Church picture

Caldwell Presbyterian Church and parsonage, birthplace of Grover Cleveland T — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.208.13 (talk) 12:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Image Suggestion

I would suggest the following picture of Mrs. Cleveland be used to replace the current image in the marriage section (sketch of their wedding ceremony):

Mrs. Frances Folsom Cleveland

Hoppyh (talk) 23:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a nice one. Better than what's there. --Coemgenus (talk) 02:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2014

In the "Childhood and family history" section, there's an image. It reads "Caldwell Presbyterian Church AND parsonage, birthplace of Grover Cleveland". Please change it to read "Caldwell Presbyterian Church parsonage, birthplace of Grover Cleveland". First Presbyterian Church is a couple blocks away. The church in the background is Saint Aloysius Parish of the Roman Catholic Church. Chucknewmanjr (talk) 16:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Done. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland was an executioner

Grover Cleveland was an executioner prior to becoming President of the United States.

There are articles that mention that he was involved in carrying out the death penalty in New York.

The category 'American executioners' should be added. - (203.211.71.228 (talk) 02:01, 15 March 2014 (UTC))

No. he was the sheriff of Buffalo NY and his office supervised executions of murderers. He did not do the rope work. Rjensen (talk) 03:05, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Death penalty was still valid punishment in NY until 2007, and yet we do not blame him for that. In the wise words of Joey Swanson: It was the State. --82.134.28.194 (talk) 13:12, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Maria Halpin Affidavit

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered.

This article only presents the view that Marian Halpin was a loose woman and the father of her child was unknown. It ignores that she filed an affidavit stating that Cleveland was the father. The affidavit was printed in numerous Republican partisan newspapers and not by Democratic partisan newspapers.

Considering that that the affidavit could have cost Democrat Grover Cleveland votes it is not surprising that it was only printed in Republican newspapers. That the affidavit was ignored by Democratic newspapers does not make the information unreliable. It just means that Democratic newspapers did not want to print anything that could harm the Democratic candidate. Watergate stories were not untrue just because they were published in the Washington Post. Allegations about Sallie Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson first appeared in a newspaper written by a person who opposed Jefferson politically.

Further, the affidavit was located by author Charles Lachman. On p. 431 of his book, "A Secret Life" he writes, "Although Maria Halpin was never called as a witness at the Ball trial, I also obtained her handwritten affidavits, sworn to in October 1884, when the attacks on her character compelled her to go public with her version of events." Also, photocopies of portions of the handwritten affidavit appear in the book in unnumbered pages displaying photographs.

None of us knows what took place between Cleveland and Halpin, but considering that he made no statement on the matter and she did, her statement is very relevant to the article, and the newspapers plus the affidavit being republished in the book "A Secret Life" constitute reliable sources.

Kaltenmeyer (talk) 22:35, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

I could see adding a sentence, now that we see it's cited to a secondary source. I wish you had mentioned that in the first place, we might've saved some unpleasantness. I do think we should delete the additional citations you added to primary sources, though. They don't add anything. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

source problem

I'm translating this article to Chinese, but just found a little problem about the source.

there's a lot sentence using the source "Nevins", but there's two "Nevins" below:

• Nevins, Allan (1932). Grover Cleveland: A Study in Courage. ASIN B000PUX6KQ. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
• Nevins, Allan ed. Letters of Grover Cleveland, 1850–1908 (1933)

Which one is it?--Jarodalien (talk) 09:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

One more: What's the "Gould, passim" stand for? I can found any source with "passim".--Jarodalien (talk) 10:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

All of the Nevins citations are sourced to the 1932 biography. I don't know why the other one is listed, it wasn't there when I submitted the article for FA. "Passim" means that the material cited is found throughout the work, not just on one page.. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you.--Jarodalien (talk) 01:28, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• One more: Note 154, "Nevins, 435–439; Jeffers, 220–222; Goldman, 143–144", and what's the "Goldman" stand for?--Jarodalien (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
  • No idea. It doesn't match any source I know of. I deleted it from the footnote. Thanks for pointing it out! --Coemgenus (talk) 22:57, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Then, note 208, what's the "Welsh, 174" stand for?--Jarodalien (talk) 10:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Should be Welch, with a "c". I changed it. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

translation done, thanks so much for following up and this wonderful article.--Jarodalien (talk) 01:08, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Unfairness against Halpin

My edit involving Maria Halpin was reverted with the comment that reliable sources do not say the statements were unfair. Please note that this was only my edit summary, nowhere in my text did I mention unfairness. The text as it is now simply states "Halpin WAS INVOLVED with several men" as if this is the plain truth. In fact, she vehemently denied this, as the text explains a few lines later. So simply in order to be consistent within the article (!), we *have* to write here that "Cleveland claimed that Halpin was involved" and a similar edit for the next line. KarlFrei (talk) 17:12, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Halpern's claims were orchestrated by the GOP for campaign purposes and are not especially credible. We rely on the reliable secondary sources -- and in this case Graff has very good coverage using multiple primary & secondary sources--see footnote 46 & link to Graff's analysis. Rjensen (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't Cleveland a primary source? Or does that book provide evidence that Halpin was involved with multiple men? (I don't have access to it.) KarlFrei (talk) 08:54, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

So shall I just put back "Cleveland claimed that" Halpin was involved etc.? This seems to be the least we could do for her. KarlFrei (talk) 09:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Cleveland is a primary source. Graff is a secondary source. As to Halpern: when I rewrote this article years ago, all of the scholarship on Cleveland credited his story without dissent. Unless there's been some change since then, I don't know that we should change the article based on 19th-century political slander. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:39, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Non-Consecutive Terms

Feel the article should highlight the fact that Cleveland was the only President to serve two non-consecutive terms. It does highlight the fact that he won the popular vote three times, but as this is an unusual fact (and unlikely to be repeated) feel it should be highlighted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.155.99 (talk) 19:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Family!

I am related to Cleveland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.93.190 (talk) 04:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Now a FA in Chinese Wikipedia

I have translated this article to Chinese Wikipedia here and promoted to FA status, and I want to thank User:Coemgenus for his effort to write this amazing article. --Jarodalien (talk) 13:47, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Collection of letters by Grover Cleveland

I'm a librarian at Buffalo State, and we have recently digitized and uploaded our collection of letters written by Grover Cleveland to E.H. Butler. I was wondering if it would be appropriate to have a link to this collection in the external link section? The collection can be found here.

BuffaloIR (talk) 18:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Nice job! I added the link. Rjensen (talk) 18:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Location of tumor.

I saw an episode of Mysteries at the Museum, S4 E5 "Cleveland Tumor; Lions of Tsavo; Willamette Meteorite", that covers the President's surgery, the seriousness of the cover-up, and the location of the specimen. It is a wet specimen found at The Mütter Museum at The College of Physicians of Philadelphia, complete with teeth and bone. The episode didn't specify whether or not the specimen is on permanent display. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 05:34, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Wording in intro paragraph

The text says: "because of being elected three times, he won the popular vote more times than any president other than the later Franklin Roosevelt." Shouldn't it say, "because he stood for election three times." He only won twice, correct? Or am I missing something... Bro2baseball (talk) 13:00, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not you. A badly written sentence got added at some point. I took it out. Thanks for calling my attention to it, I hope it's clearer now. --Coemgenus (talk) 00:40, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Executioner

Grover Cleveland was an executioner when capital punishment in New York was handed out. - (119.224.80.18 (talk) 23:34, 23 October 2016 (UTC))

Sources? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:41, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Cleveland did perform at least one execution (that of a Jack Morissey) as part of his official duties as Sheriff of Erie County in New York, see this 1912 New York Times article. There is a Forbes "listicle" that seems to have Cleveland's alleged nickname somewhat mangled. Though during the 1884 presidential election Cleveland was called "the hangman of Buffalo", he only presided over two hangings while Sheriff. Per the NY Times article, Deputy Sheriff Jacob Emerick was known as "Hangman Emerick" because he had served as hangman for many years for other Erie County Sheriffs. Shearonink (talk) 01:28, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

And, btw, all this is already in the article, Editor 119.224.80.18...take a look at the Sheriff of Erie County section. Shearonink (talk) 02:11, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland should have the 'American executioners' category added. - (119.224.80.18 (talk) 09:16, 28 November 2016 (UTC))

Makes sense to me. Done. Shearonink (talk) 12:49, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2016

Add a hyperlink to Benjamin Harrison where he is listed as succeed Grover Cleveland as 23rd President of the United States, right under Cleveland's picture. DrewHak (talk) 03:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Harrison is linked the first time he's mentioned in the infobox; he doesn't need to be linked every time. See WP:OVERLINK. —C.Fred (talk) 03:37, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

24th & 22nd President of the United States - Infobox

I think it it probably confusing to Wikipedia's general worldwide readership to have Grover Cleveland listed in one line as both the 22nd and as the 24th President of the United States. Yes, he was both of those things but it makes more sense to me and adds visual clarity if the 22nd Presidency and the 24th Presidency are listed on separate entry lines, along with their respective Vice Presidents, predecessors and successors. Maybe I'm wrong, would welcome some discussion here. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 22:01, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Most other offices where the holder served nonconsecutive terms have a conjoined info box. I understand that POTUS is much different than other offices. I won't argue if the the page is reverted. -- Sleyece talk) 18:45, December 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2017

Replace signature copy with svg vector copy found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grover_Cleveland_Signature_1882.svg 24.26.142.41 (talk) 03:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Done. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 06:36, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2017

Add Chester A. Arthur as Grover Cleveland's other predecessor, and Benjamin Harrison as his other successor because Cleveland served 2 non-consecutive terms. 96.8.248.239 (talk) 18:06, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Looks like it's already there. - Denimadept (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

False Statement in Section on Defeat by Harrison

"The Republicans won Indiana, largely as the result of a fraudulent voting practice known as Blocks of Five. Republican victory in that state, where Cleveland lost by just 2,348 votes, was sufficient to propel Harrison to victory, despite his loss of the nationwide popular vote."

The last sentence is simply not true. The electoral vote was 233-168. Indiana had 15 electoral votes. If Cleveland had won Indiana, Harrison would still have won 218-183. In no sense was Republican victory in Indiana, by itself, "sufficient to propel Harrison to victory".Doobie61 (talk) 14:38, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

You're right. I removed it. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:56, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2017

Grover Cleveland was preceeded by Chester A. Arthur and not by Benjamin Harrison. Culdack (talk) 06:47, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Cleveland was the only president to have served non-consecutive terms, so saying he was preceded by Arthur and by Harrison is both correct. Harrison served in-between Cleveland's terms. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 06:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

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Coat of Arms

I see there is a coat of arms here for him. Who granted it to him? CsikosLo (talk) 14:55, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I deleted it. As I think you're suggesting, there is no arms-granting agency in America. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:53, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2018: Preceded-by

President Grover Cleveland is supposed to have had two terms with President Benjamin Harrison serving as president between the two terms. Therefore, President Grover Cleveland should have a "Preceded by" that mentions both Presidents Chester Arthur and Benjamin Harrison, rather than just the latter as it stands now. Similarly perhaps, the "Succeeded by" should list both Presidents Benjamin Harrison and William McKinley. Siddharth.pramod (talk) 23:07, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Preceded by typically only has one listing which is the last president preceding the one the article is about. -- Dane ^talk 23:54, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

"Intermont"- Cleveland Summer Home in Tamworth, NH

Would very much like to see an entry detailing Cleveland's purchase of, and residence at, "Intermont", his summer home (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTyqHr7B31c) in the foothills of the White Mountains: specifically, Tamworth, New Hampshire, where many Cleveland descendants still live. His youngest son, Francis, founded a summer theatre, the Barnstormers, in Tamworth in 1931: it still exists today (see http://www.barnstormerstheatre.org/about-us.html).

Thank you!

Michael J. Curtiss Michaelcnh (talk) 19:41, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Order of terms in infobox

Is there a reason the presidential terms in the infobox are non-chronological? If not, I'll re-order them for clarity. ʊserdude _here 17:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Infoboxes are usually reverse chronological in general--other wise the least important office the guy held would be at the top. Putting the second term above the first just continues that pattern, although I can see why it would look a little odd. --Coemgenus (talk) 18:52, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Senility

Cleveland was senile in the last year of his life. (86.166.116.12 (talk) 16:25, 29 July 2018 (UTC))

What source are you getting that from? CrypticIndividual1000 (talk) 20:30, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

The above post is almost a year old...I think we can maybe let their unanswered post go. Shearonink (talk) 20:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

'One of his children was the product of rape'

I deleted that part. Like I said in the edit, I'm not opposed to it being included, but that's a strong claim, which needs a good source. The Daily Beast doesn't cut it. If there's something from the NYT, or a peer reviewed article, or a book from a well published author, absolutely it should be there. But a quick google searched yielded nada, and so I nixed it. Alcibiades979 (talk) 03:08, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Lachman's book gets negative reviews in the history and library journals. eg: (1) "VERDICT This will satisfy gossip lovers and some presidential history buffs. Serious readers will be better served by fuller studies, including Allan Nevins's Grover Cleveland: A Study in Courage, over 50 years old now, or Henry F. Graff's Grover Cleveland." [Library Journal, , 7/1/2011] (2) " The result is a colorful but shapeless heap of dirty laundry." [Publishers Weekly 5/30/2011] (3) "paints a different picture. His over-the-top expose accuses Cleveland of rape, smearing the name of his victims and forcing her into a mental institution, and placing his child into an orphanage. This is a rather sleazy effort that inflates possibilities and speculations into established facts while applying the most negative interpretation to Cleveland's actions... This isn't serious history, but many will enjoy it as a guilty pleasure" [Booklist 6/15/2011]. None of the scholarly history journals reviewed the book. Rjensen (talk) 05:32, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2019

The table to the right of the article on Grover Cleveland lists “preceeded by” and “succeeded by” entries for Mr. Cleveland's two non-consecutive terms as president. The entries are reversed, i.e. he was preceeded in his first term by Chester Arthur, and followed by Benjamin Harrison, and he was preceeded in his second term by Benjamin Harrison and followed by William McKinley. I have not verified and do not comment upon the entries for vice-president - whether they also need to be reversed. 67.177.213.27 (talk) 17:14, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: the terms are correctly matched with the neighboring presidents. His second term appears first in the infobox because it is more recent. Highway 89 (talk) 18:29, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Schooling

It appears that Cleveland was educated at a now-defunct school called the Clinton Academy. Two questions: 1) Was it a private or public school? 2) Did he graduate? Thanks for any help! Wolfdog (talk) 04:23, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Money inflation

At the end of the first paragraph of the Early career and the Civil War section of the article it says that $150 is equivalent to $3,115 in 2019. According to https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1863?amount=150, $150 in 1863 is equivalent to $3,059.21 in 2020. It is best to have updated information.

50.120.11.188 (talk) 20:18, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Typing error

Under title "Defeated by Harrison", paragrapph starting with "As in 1884, the election focused...", a typing error ("Cleland" instead of "Clevelan" has been found ("Cleland won a plurality of the popular vote...") Luisma1960 (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Schooling

It appears that Cleveland was educated at a now-defunct school called the Clinton Academy. Two questions: 1) Was it a private or public school? 2) Did he graduate? It would be helpful to know this to understand his socioeconomic and educational background better and to contribute further to this page as well as List of presidents of the United States by education. Thanks for any help! Wolfdog (talk) 13:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Vice magazine citation

Citation 48, from the vice article. Is ill suited to be a proper source. The article reads as nothing more than a blog post that uses charged terminology and name-calling, acting as an opinion peace more than anything else. I really don't think that it should be used in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.106.2 (talk) 23:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2020

Madison.Day (talk) 15:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland is related to a family in IL. The family received money from him in WW2. One family members name is Madison.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 15:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Wrong precede president of the United States

The precede president for Grover Cleveland's first term should be Chester A. Arthur, not Benjamin Harrison. As I can't edit this page, I hope someone can see this and edit this mistake. All regards Sl7 lb (talk) 17:27, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Request to add brief details about Grover Cleveland's death

I'd like to add a new section titled "Death" with brief details about Grover Cleveland's death. Currently, nothing similar exists beside the date of his death.

My edit would be similar to that given below:

Death

Grover Cleveland died of a heart attack on June 24, 1908, at the age of 71. He passed away at his family’s home in Princeton, New Jersey. Prior to his death he had been ill for several months, during which he suffered from a "weak heart" and other ailments. He died with his wife, Frances, by his side, however, his children were all away in New Hampshire at the time.

 Partly done. No consensus on the reliability of Biography.com (see WP:RSP). Death place added with other reference. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 14:37, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Conservatives

There were none. The term was not in use in the America of Cleveland’s time, and he was no more “conservative” than his opposition to imperial wars and compassion for Native Americans made him “liberal.” Phony labels obscure true history. Nicmart (talk) 13:22, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2020

However, recent surveys over the past decade have now ranked Cleveland in the lower tier, close to average among presidents. (ie., his ranking is no longer in the upper tier according to contemporary rankings from scholars and historians-- this is based on the page that the last sentence in Cleveland's overview leads to, making the statement of consensus relatively outdated.) Roid'internaute (talk) 11:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Roid'internaute:  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. GoingBatty (talk) 00:11, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Why is the view of historians, overwhelmingly leftists, relevant? So they don’t speak well of a president whose policies they disapprove of. Nicmart (talk) 13:24, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Why do we consider him to be the 22nd and the 24th president and bump all subsequent presidents down by one place?

Grover Cleveland was the 22nd president of the United States. He was voted out of office and then ran again 4 years later and won. He is still the 22nd person to serve as president ever. The 23rd president may have split his time in office, but he is one man. Wikipedia is a major reason that presidents from him onwards are bumped down by one number. Joe Biden, for example, became the 45 person to ever serve as president of the United States, so he should be considered the 45th president. Efb21 (talk) 23:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

: ...Well, if it were a Wikipedia peculiarity to describe him as the 22nd and 24th president, there might be some ground for disputation (on Wikipedia). But it is not: see for instance [1].--Sapphorain (talk) 23:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Wrong picture hyperlinked to "verrucous carcinoma,[245]"

The section headed "Cancer" discusses Cleveland's mouth cancer. The last sentence in the section contains a hyperlink for "verrucous carcinoma,[245]". The corresponding picture is a gruesome image of a cancerous penis. Verrucous carcinoma of the penis is rare (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276794/) and is apparently not what Cleveland suffered from, since the previous paragraph discusses surgery to his mouth. This image is plainly a prank and should be removed. I am not a Wikipedia editor, just a concerned reader. 67.161.43.236 (talk) 06:33, 16 February 2021 (UTC) mollyguenzer@yahoo.com

Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2022

It incorrectly states who preceded him. 69.112.240.80 (talk) 01:59, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Who do you think preceded him, if not Arthur before his first term & Harrison before his second term? Peaceray (talk) 02:59, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2021

The current entry states that Grover Cleveland was the 22nd and 24th U.S. President.

This is an misuse of language and misapplication of concepts. Grover Cleveland was one man, making him the 22nd U.S. President twice.

He held the office of the 22nd and 24th presidencies, but is still only the 22nd U.S. President.

Hence, Donald Trump was the 44th U.S. President holding the 45th presidency and Joe Biden is the 45th President with the 46th presidency. 2A02:1812:1E37:B000:3091:96E5:ED88:8FA7 (talk) 09:26, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:56, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The whitehouse.gov site says The 22nd and 24th President of the United States. I believe that site to be authoritative in this matter.

References

Peaceray (talk) 03:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2022

Change "served as the 22nd and 24th president of the United States from 1885 to 1889 and again from 1893 to 1897" to "served as the 22nd and 24th president of the United States from 1885 to 1889 and from 1893 to 1897". In other words, remove "again".

Cleveland did not "serve as 22nd and 24th president" twice; he served as the president twice. Using "Again" here is syntactically and factually incorrect. Skepticul (talk) 01:48, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Qhnbgjt (talk) 11:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Civil Service Commission

change ((Civil Service Commission)) to ((United States Civil Service Commission|Civil Service Commission)) 2601:541:4580:8500:94A7:8954:DFB5:4D88 (talk) 11:51, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done Madeline (part of me) 17:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022

Change: It was during this period that Cleveland began courting a widow, Maria Halpin. She later accused him of raping her.[47][48] It is unclear if Halpin was actually raped by Cleveland as some early reports stated or if their relationship was consensual.

Delete: Overwhelmingly, it seems that the affair was consensual

Revise to: It was during this period that Cleveland began courting a widow, Maria Halpin. She later accused him of raping her. "Cleveland got on top of her, and, she claimed, 'by use of force and violence and without my consent' had intercourse with her."

Citation: Lachman, Charles. “Without My Consent.” A Secret Life: The Lies and Scandals of President Grover Cleveland, Skyhorse Publishing, New York, NY, 2013, pp. 81–81. Sillypilgrim (talk) 00:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: I have deleted the passage as per your suggestion, but my reasoning differs from yours. As far as I can tell, the source provided does not support the conclusion that this sentence implies. I will leave it at that; it is unclear what happened, and Wikipedia should reflect this lack of clarity instead of committing to one or the other academic opinion. Thanks for your edit request! Actualcpscm (talk) 15:33, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Legacy section vs. lead

Suggestion: this article could use a "Legacy and historian appraisals" section, as that content is currently contained in the lead (contravening MOS:LEAD) and ought to be expanded upon. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 03:40, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

After the sentence, "This affiliation was more of an office-sharing arrangement, though quite compatible", please add a clarification tag: {{clarify|reason=Compatible with what?|date=August 2023}}.
If you can clarify it without adding the tag, all the better. 2001:BB6:47ED:FA58:FD4D:922A:E501:F0C5 (talk) 10:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:34, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland 2 terms

Hello! If Grover Cleveland had 2 terms as US President, should there be two from and two dates for his first and second terms? Thank you! Krobbyzw (talk) 12:48, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Portrait of Cleveland

I think it would enhance the article considerably if Anders Zorn's portrait of Cleveland (from 1899) was added. IngemarO (talk) 08:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2024

Change"Democratic elected" to "Democrat elected". It is not grammatically correct as it is. 2605:59C8:107E:C800:D5C9:5088:19D8:1ADA (talk) 05:05, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 07:07, 16 January 2024 (UTC)