Talk:Harsha

Expanding this article

I have expanded this article with a bit more information. - parthi 23:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

CLAN OF HARSHA

Many historians have hurriedly given his dynasty as 'Vardhan', as both he and his father had the suffix ' Vardhan' after their first personal names. That, however, is not a correctapproach, as Vardhan is just a title like 'Varman' or 'Gupta', and it is not a family name, hence cannot be used as a clan/dynatical name..

Cunningham had picked up on this circa 19th century, and this was researched in depth by Desraj, Dahiya, Ahlawat to name a few.

The only dispute is- can we link Harsha to the [Virk]s of Mandsor, or do we link him to the [Bains]( [Vais]) of Punjab?. Huen Tsang , says he is of the 'Vais' background.

We should keep in mind that the documents of that era are not crystal clear, however we do know that both 'clan' or 'goth' names of Virk and Bains/Vais, belong to the Jats from time immemorial.

For further indepth discussion see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

Harshvardhan was born in royal family of bais Rajput Singh sirmour (talk) 10:27, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

There is no other source other than jatland wiki that Bais is a gotra among the Jats.

Bais/Vais is a clan found among Rajputs of Baiswada in Awadh, a region which has next to no Jat presence. Please do not use Yahoo groups as source for your fraudulent claims from next time. Ilosian (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Jats of bains clan had a jagir or princely state named alawalpur in punjab ,its ruler was sardar himmat singh jallewala . Tushir0001 (talk) 15:45, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Political and Social Society in North India

Society in North India had various forms of governance. At the village level it was a mini republic, governed by a council of five- the Panchayat.

A larger cluster of villages, normally 84, would form a republican unit,called a ' Gan',' JanpadPal', 'Khap., wich in turn would be governed by a overall elected body- the Sarv Khap.( All Khap)

The monarchial society, as may be expected, would get more notice,in surviving historical records, as the monarchial system tended to have the disposable surplus to devote to making buildings, temples, making inscriptions, and having recorders on staff.

Research is increasingly showing that the republican societies did not die out, and were co existing wth monarchial forms, though they were in tension with each other, for monarchy and democracy are not exactly compatible.

See references and the links in the main article.

Ravi Chaudhary 14:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

WP cannot include your own deductions

You can only cite reputable published sources not yahoo groups started by yourself. These are not considered valid sources. See WP:NOR and WP:CITE - Parthi 21:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Response>>

Parthi or Venu62

You are making changes wthout referring to the published material,or are you suggesting that Indian sources are not reputable?.

Please show that Vardhnan is , first a dynastical name, and that it was used by them or for that matter anyone else, as a dynastical name.

Please show where Buddhism was the official religion, If you read a standard history text, any text, it will show that all religions were practiced, and Harsha supportive of and was tolerant of all.

Please also show us where teh Hns were a supreme power in the Punjab and elswhereat the time of Harsha?. The main Hun power of Mihirgul and Toraman, had been long broken.

Please also do not delete any of the references to the republics.

Much material is coming out, and it may be wise for you to read it , rather than ignore it, if you interested in the History of Harsha Vardhan and his times.

Please also do NOT delete the references to the published material.

May I suggest you argue out your theories rather than indulge yourself in a 'revert'and re revert excercise.

The material and evidence is not going to go away!

Ravi Chaudhary 02:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have cleaned up the formatting and corrected your spelling and gramattical errors. I will check facts soon. Remember WP:CITE says you can only cite English sources on the English WP. - Parthi 03:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Response>.

Thank you for not deleting the material.

Checking the facts is exactly what I am requesting you to do, before going into unproductive reverts.

You will need to access the material.If you difficulty, please ask for help.

I intend to expand the article with more refernced material, as I have time

I will need help with formatting,structure etc. Your assitance would be appreciated

Best regards

Ravi Chaudhary 13:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This page is vandalized

I do not have information regarding this topic to make changes. But this topic is vandalized, and I would like to bring it to notice of somebody. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajmohan h (talk • contribs)

I have reverted the vandalism-Parthi 00:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Added multiple reference material regarding Harsha's dynasty (Lohara). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.70.158 (talk) 02:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

References

To: The person writing from IP No. 66.75.70.158 Dear Sir or Madam: I noticed you have just added a number of references to back up your point about Harsha belonging to the Lohara dynasty. Would you please add the page numbers to these references so they can be easily checked? Many thanks, John Hill (talk) 03:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Harsha Lohara issue

This issue is now resolved. User 66.75.70.158 is confusing the 11th century controversial king Harsha of Kashmir of the Lohara dynasty between the 6th century Harsha of the Vardhan dynasty. My reference for this is as follows;

• History of Buddhism in Kashmir, by Sarla Khosla, Published by Sagar Publications 1972, p59, p79

• Explore Kashmiri Pandits Published by Lulu.com, ISBN 0963479865, 9780963479860 ,p25

• History of the Panjab Hill States by J. Hutchison, J.P. Vogel, p672

• Downfall of Hindu India by Chintaman Vinayak Vaidya, published by Gian Pub. House, 1986, p303

I believe these recent references should suffice?--Tuar (talk) 22:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

To User: Tuar, From User 66.75.70.158 Not so fast user Tuar! There is no dynasty with the name Vardhan dynasty. You cannot use part of Harshavardhans Father's name and make a dynasty out of it. Can you cite reference regarding Vardhan dynasty? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.70.158 (talk) 22:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Ofcourse, but this name has been mentioned as such for the sake of differentiating between the mistaken dynasty you confused this Harsha with.

But the fact that I am not the first to refer to this dynasty as the Vardhan dynasty is proven thus by the following references;

• Legislative Elite in India: A Study in Political Socialization by Prabhu Datta Sharma, Publ.Legislators 1984, p32

• Revival of Buddhism in Modern India by Deodas Liluji Ramteke, Publ Deep & Deep, 1983, p19

• Some Aspects of Ancient Indian History and Culture by Upendra Thakur, Publ. Abhinav Publications, 1974, p77

Hope that suffices? Just a discussion reference, nothing scholastically permanent here lol. Good luck--Tuar (talk) 22:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

To User: Tuar, From User 66.75.70.158 No, your references don't suffice. These are all local/regional publications and are by unknown authors. I suggest you get better sources, otherwise, we delete the Vardhan dynasty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.70.158 (talk) 03:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No, you will not delete the Vardhan dynasty ( I am not the one who wrote this article) but I have clarified your confused assertions. I suggest you consult wikipedia guidelines and policies which authorise these sources, not you.--Tuar (talk) 13:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

harsha's empire. Correct or not?

After looking at this: http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/ralph/resource/harsha.htm, there is a dispute as to who's map is correct.

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/ralph/resource/harsha.htm (Map from the book 'Ralph'sWorld Civilizations Chapter 11') --BhainsRajput (talk) 19:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Uncited addition

An additional two sentences have been added at the very end of the article that contradict earlier information and give no references. (They are also ungrammatical). If no references are supplied within a month, they will be deleted. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 07:16, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Merge

An earlier discussion at Talk:Pushyabhuti dynasty#Merge for a different merge proposal suggested that a better option would be to merge Empire of Harsha with the relevant section in this page, which would be Harsha#Reign. I also support this, so formally posting the new proposal here. Klbrain (talk) 05:22, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support. Content overlaps, and neither article is large enough to cause size problems. utcursch | talk 20:30, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Nagananda

The article states: "Nagananda is dedicated to Shiva's consort Gauri". Actually Nagananda is clearly dedicated to the Buddha mentioned in the first dedicatory two verses.

"...May Buddha, my conquerer, who was thus jealously addressed by the nymphs of Mara, protect you! May the Lord of Munis protect you!.."

(talk) 23:14, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

The source currently cited in the article (Abrahm Eraly) states that the play is dedicated to Gauri, so we need another source to add the 'Buddha' bit mentioned above. Encyclopædia Britannica (1911) states "It begins with a benedictory stanza to Buddha, and concludes with one to Gauri", but it's an obsolete source.

A search for "Nagananda Buddha Gauri" on Google Books throws up other books, which are more nuanced than Eraly's and more recent than Britannica. Maybe one of these can be added to the article. E.g. Indian Buddhism After the Buddha (pages 293-294): "Much has been made of the fact that Harsha wrote Nāgānanda , a play with a Buddhist theme . But if we have to determine the nature of the personal religion of Harsha purely on the basis of his plays one should conclude that he was a Saiva... Moreover one should remember that even in the Nagananda it is the goddess Gauri (Girijā), the wife of Siva, who plays significant role in the story of the drama. Harsha makes his personal religious inclination obvious when he selects the Gauri temple as the place where the hero and heroine met for the first time. His attitude becomes clearer when towards the end of the drama Gauri plays the role of the most notable divine agency and turns the tragedy into comedy by reviving its hero Jīmātavāhana and making and anointing him a chakravartin ruler... Here is the opinion of Dr. S. K. De: 'Although the Buddha is invoked in the benedictory stanza, Gauri is introduced as a deus ex machina, and purely Buddhistic traits are not prominent, except in its central theme of universal benevolence.'"

On a side note, several books suggest that the authorship of the play is not certain. For example, Harsha, a Multidisciplinary Political Study (p. 303): "it is not at all certain that Harsha actually wrote this play". This should be mentioned both here and at Nagananda. utcursch | talk 15:42, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Dear Utcursch: You can see the original Sanskrit text and translations of Nagananda in several books. The mangalacharana verses are obviously for Buddha, and certainly not for Gauri. Please see

• The Nagananda Of Sriharsa (1953) by Karandikar Dr. M. A. It is here https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.507627/page/n39/mode/2up

I quote:

"Now begins 
The Nataka : 
NAGANANDAM 
ACT I 

“Under the pretext of meditation about whom are you thinking ? Opening the eye for a moment look at this person afflicted by the arrows of the disembodied (Madana); Though you are a protector you do not protect us; You are falsely kind; What person other than you can be more cruel?” May the enlightened Buddha who was thus jealously addressed by the nymphs of Mara (Madana) protect you (i.e. the audience). (1) 

Moreover, 

May the lord of Munis (i.e. Buddha) protect you, who was seen by Kama with his bow drawn, by the warriors (or heroes) of Mara dancing at the loud beating of the drums, by the group of divine ladies with their eyes tremulous on account of the contraction of the eye-brows, trembling, yawning and smiling, by the Siddhas with their heads bent (in salutation) (and) by Vasava (i.e. Indra) with horripilation on his body through great dismay because while contemplating he remained unmoved till the acquisition of enlightenment. 

[After the recitation of the Nandi, (the benedictory stanzas) ]. ..

• Here is the Sanskrit text and Marathi translation. Nagananda Natak by Shriharshadeb.

https://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.2178/page/n9/mode/2up

• English translation by Nagananda Edition I I by P V Ramanuja Swami is here: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.326313/page/n33/mode/2up

"After invoking Buddha to the audience .."

There are several translations, some with original sanskrit text. There is no doubt that that at the beginning the Buddha is invoked.Malaiya (talk) 08:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

The concept that a person can only belong to a single tradition is relatively modern for India. Buddhist (and Jain) texts (and art) refer to many gods and goddesses that are shared by other traditions. Malaiya (talk) 08:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Religion of King Harsha

It's clear from multiple sources, that Harsha was a Buddhist king who used to be Hindu in his earlier life. But due to political movement of Hindutva, someone keeps changing it to hinduism.

Even the source cited by user Billjones94 viz. "The First Spring: The Golden Age of India by Abraham Eraly", who changed it to hinduism, says itself that he later converted to Buddhism. I have now cited my own source.

With respect to Harsha background

Dear @LukeEmily:, you added a reference of Ms Karve, but is she a WP:HISTRS?, her reference for Harsha is also not in detail just a foot note. I am not sure how can we use it here. She is an anthropologist not an Historian as per wiki [[1]] Thanks RS6784 (talk) 07:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Dear @RS6784:, we generally use Karve in many articles for caste related opinions as many western scholars also refer to her and she was of international repute. Please also see Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(history)#Who_is_a_historianHistorians often have a PhD or advanced academic training in historiography, but may have an advanced degree in a related social science field or a domain specific field; other scholars and reliable sources will typically use the descriptive label historian to refer to an historian. However, the issue is that she is old. Her book says 2006 but the first edition was from 1960's. I was trying to find some modern non-regional historian (from some prestigious universities or academic publications) but did not find one so far. The previous source was not WP:RS. At least she is RS as far as WP is concerned(although I would prefer a more modern historian). As an example, Sitush said that in this discussion that Christophe Jaffrelot is reliable. Foot note should be ok, since it is from her. Anyway, feel free to replace her with another source if you find a better one.LukeEmily (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Dear LukeEmily, I understand your point but Ms Karve is not an expert on History of that Ancient or Medieval period and just see it is casual footnote mention. Christopher Jaffrelot case is different here compared to Ms Karve, his points are being used in context of last 120 yrs Sanskritisation etc. Here we are talking about background of Harsha, a 7th Century ruler, I don't think in this situation Karve fits into WP:HISTRS, I have one reference of GH Ojha who was a good historian of his generation but again he is too old and one information he doesn't call Harsha as Vaishya but Bais clan. But I agree the issue with that source would also be there. In line with all this, I think it should be left as it is like your last good faith edit till the time we have a better source. In my opinion, we cannot use foot note mention of a sociologist to specify conclusively this historical part wrt Sixth-Seventh Century. The tag that you previously added should remain intact. I will wait for your reply before reverting to your last Good faith edit, which was fine. RS6784 (talk) 16:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

as per Ms Karve's wikibpage, bio of Ms Karve says this - According to Nandini Sundar, Karve was the first Indian female anthropologist, a discipline that in India during her lifetime was generally synonymous with sociology. She had wide-ranging academic interests, including anthropology, anthropometry, serology, Indology and palaeontology, I am not convinced using her casual footnote reference to settle this out. RS6784 (talk) 16:16, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

We have another source Ghurye. Very reliable. Anyway we can still add better source needed if you feel.LukeEmily (talk) 19:44, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Dear @RS6784:, readded better source needed tag as per your suggestion. I agree with you that we should try to find some modern historian as this issue is controversial and the sources are old. ThanksLukeEmily (talk)

Rajput is not a real Kshatriya, it is a mixture of many castes, Harsh Vardhan was told by a Chinese traveler himself from a Vaishya Baniya caste, and then some Rajputs were also made from Shudras like Kachchwah Mori solankis chandels tomars and then some Rajputs were made from Brahmins like Guhil pratihars chauhans etc. Rathores are made of Dravid creeds like Rashtrakutas and some Rajputs are made of castes like Huns kushana who are found in Potohar pakistan. Some Rajputs are also mixed with some Afghans tribes, they have nothing to do with Kshatriya Varna, they emerged as a strong union in the medieval period and then Got their history written with their own so called historians

Harshwardhan was a vaishya(bania) Gaur brahmin (talk) 02:28, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Harsha@143

The Rowdy Harsha is 49.204.193.145 (talk) 06:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Clan name change to Jat without a source.

Someone is changing Harshas clan from Rajput to Jat. I want to tell him jat wiki is not a source to prove that. Please do not act this way changing it without providing a source. If any moderator is here please look into it. Thanks. Raptordvz (talk) 08:50, 9 June 2024 (UTC)