Talk:Ivan Savvidis

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Oligarchy

I suggest the following sources to back the claim that he is actually an oligarch:

https://www.ft.com/content/c555a48c-436b-11ea-abea-0c7a29cd66fe

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/mar/16/paok-owner-ivan-savvidis-stormed-pitch-gun-ordered-to-testify

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/us/politics/russia-macedonia-greece.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnhyatt/2022/04/07/these-50-russian-oligarch-billionaires-havent-been-sanctioned/?sh=737ebd7d6482

80.46.66.176 (talk) 11:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey SportsGreece can you add the above citations please? You added the citation label, but I cannot edit the article. 80.46.66.176 (talk) 15:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure but could you write down the passages that refer to Savvidis and mention him as Oligarch? I have not access to those pages (except for Guardian) so I would like to know what they say and if by the term "oligarch", the journalists mean "Russian oligarch" which is different than the plain term. I have to say that I still do not agree with the label and putting that label in the introduction of the article apart from the term of "Russian Oligarch", whish it might apply to Savvidis and is used with a different meaning and context and with a more factual core than the plain term. SportsGreece (talk) 11:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow...

FT: One of the Greek oligarchs is dubbed the Kremlin’s man because of his links with Vladimir Putin. The other is a shipping magnate and the proprietor of a media empire.

Guardian: The Russian oligarch and football club proprietor who stunned spectators when he stormed on to the pitch carrying a gun during a match in Greece has been ordered to appear to before a public prosecutor on Friday after criminal charges were brought against him.

FT: Here is the complete list of unsanctioned Russian oligarch billionaires, with links to each oligarch’s estimated net worth and short bios. (Fourteen Russian oligarchs who were billionaires before the war, but whose fortunes have since plunged below $1 billion, are not included in this list).

NYtimes: A Greek-Russian billionaire, a former member of the Russian Duma and the owner of a professional Greek soccer team, Mr. Savvidis has moved seamlessly between the sporting worlds of both countries. He has a finger in seemingly every facet of life in Thessaloniki, the Greek port city where he lives, and is a well-known player in the often feuding world of Greek and Russian oligarchs. 92.40.200.82 (talk) 09:50, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Numerous highly reliable sources describe him as a Russian oligarch closely linked to Putin's regime. If anyone disagrees with this clear characterization—based on hundreds of sources rather than just media reports—please explain your objection. Michalis1994 (talk) 17:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Persistant edit warring

User:Michalis1994 I don't understand what you're doing. We're saying the same thing, aren't we; what do you care if I write that some media said so? After all is not all of the Media, New York Times mentioned him as tycoon not oligarch . Why does the sentence have to be worded exactly as you want it worded?

Thank you for notifying the admins. If anyone is edit-warring here, it’s you—I added references that you

removed without justification.

Although you claim we are addressing the same issue, removing the term appears to obscure the identity of a well-known group of Russian businessmen. This label is supported by numerous sources, which I can provide. Therefore, it’s not just "some media." Please participate in the discussion above and explain your objections to the label.

Michalis1994 (talk) 17:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't remove the claim. D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You just removed two sources that clearly identify him as an oligarch, claiming instead that he is a tycoon. If there is edit-warring, it seems to be on your part. There appears to be bias here, and I recommend reviewing WP:NPOV. Regarding the "some media" claim, would it help if I added another 50 sources confirming his status as an oligarch? Michalis1994 (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand why we can't mention "some media". Where is the harm for wikipedia? D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:29, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cause it's sanitising the article and there is a clear category for Russian oligarchs! I guess you got to accept that this isn't Greek WP? Michalis1994 (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

but I didn't say not to put it on. D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done. Savvidis is a Russian oligarch and that was his status because of his close aid to the Russian state. It's not some media, it's the reality of his business outside Russia. Michalis1994 (talk) 17:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. we can write most of the media. D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes. I really suggest you read and familiriase yourself with the article Russian oligarchs and the history behind this group of businessmen during Putin's presidency. It's not just media but a clear financial link between the state and various wealthy Russians. Michalis1994 (talk) 17:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not question their existence. I question how they should be presented in the wp regarding npov D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:42, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where the sources (New York times) state him as an oligarch. I want the quote, please. D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:27, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this isn't an attempt to get content removed through distortion of logic, then I clearly am at a loss. I hope you can read English. U.S. Spycraft: "A Greek-Russian billionaire, a former member of the Russian Duma and the owner of a professional Greek soccer team, Mr. Savvidis has moved seamlessly between the sporting worlds of both countries. He has a finger in seemingly every facet of life in Thessaloniki, the Greek port city where he lives, and is a well-known player in the often feuding world of Greek and Russian oligarchs." The Oligarchs’ Derby: "Greek soccer has for decades been dominated not by its players and managers but by its owners: proud, bombastic, fabulously wealthy strongmen drawn from the country’s oligarch class, drawn to the sports less for the competition or the glory and more for the power it can bestow." - proceeds then to discuss Ivan Savvidis' tenure at PAOK:

"All of which has made him of intense interest to American spy agencies.

United States officials say they intercepted communications in June showing that Mr. Savvidis was working as Russia’s conduit to undermine an agreement between Greece and Macedonia that would have paved the way for Macedonia to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Greece has long objected to Macedonia’s entry into NATO. Moscow, which sees the expanding alliance as a major threat on its border, was determined to defeat a referendum on the deal."

Both articles describe Ivan Savvidis as an oligarch. You have been edit-warring here hoping that there will be no dispute. Michalis1994 (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]