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Ultimate NZ Soccer

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The article currently uses Ultimate NZ Soccer extensively without attribution. As a SPS in a BLP, we either need to replace the source, or attribute the statements; NealeWellington as the primary contributor, what do you think? BilledMammal (talk) 16:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain that in more detail? It's already attributed to Ultimate NZ Soccer. Can you please link or expand your acronyms? Nfitz (talk) 16:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, WP:SPS and WP:BLP. Use of self published sources in biographies of living people need to identify the organization or person who published the source in the text - although WP:BLPSPS says that we cannot use self published sources in biographies of living people at all. I was not aware of this conflict in our policies, but it is problematic. BilledMammal (talk) 17:02, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not so much problematic - but shows that opinion is divided, and such sources should be used sparingly. Though as far as I know, this particular source has been recommended for some time. I'm not sure why we'd have a blanket ban on self-published books, given the trends in publishing in recent years, if the source is considered good by experts in the field. Also I don't see why the organization or person who published needs to be in the text, when it's already attributed in the footnote for the reference - and I don't see how that differs for any reference. If the claims were extraordinary, then there might be concerns, but the 3 items that source is used for seem pretty banal, and not potentially incendiary. Recall that these BLP rules are all about high degree of sensitivity - not about quantifying the number of caps or match details. Often the concerns you raise relate to black and white interpretations of something that isn't black and white - the project is all about shades of grey. Nfitz (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Conflict between WP:BLP and WP:V. It seems my interpretation of WP:SPS was wrong; both WP:SPS nor WP:BLPSPS forbids the use of self published sources in BLP's. As such, we will need to replace the source or remove the text. BilledMammal (talk) 17:43, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If it's not forbidden, then nothing needs replacing. Though how is the word "forbid" ever appropriate when discussing guidelines or even policies. Only a pillar deserves such obedience - and there are only 5 pillars, one of which is WP:5P5. You need to move away from inappropriate black and white thinking. Like in language and law - it's not a black and white world. It's not your job to try and fix the inconsistencies in Wikipedia - that generally exist for a reason. Gosh, I think we have this particular source on a list somewhere recommending it's use! There's always exceptions - as wiered as that may be ... time to have some more caffiene before I have a siezure! :) Nfitz (talk) 19:08, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I question BilledMammal why we are having the discussion here and not at WP:Footy. Ultimate NZ Soccer has been in use and a trusted source for a number of years. It's more than a blog and the person who runs it is a NZ football historian. It is used across a number of articles both season/club ones but many BLP as well. The debate shouldn't be had on one talk page and needs to go much further than one deletion discussion if you don't like it's use as a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NZFC (talk • contribs) 19:17, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
NZFC is correct - this is not the place for this discussion - which is surely moot during the AFD debate - it's not like the existence of those two references for appearances among the 30 (!) references makes any difference on the notability, any more than the rec.sports.soccer reference. Nfitz (talk) 00:34, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's a BLP issue, not a notability issue, and since it appears that the AFD will be closed as keep we need to resolve it - if the source is being used in other BLP's then that also needs to be resolved. NZFC has opened a discussion here, and I will open a discussion at WP:RSN soon. BilledMammal (talk) 00:38, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Let the first discussion play out before starting a second one somewhere else. There is WP:NORUSH; bios have been sourced to that website for years. Nfitz (talk) 05:34, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
BLP issue I think BilledMammel is a correct on the use of Ultimate NZ Soccer as it clearly falls under WP:BLPSPS, however, even without those references the article still meets WP:GNG, plus the information from Ultimate NZ Soccer should be readily available and verifiable from other sources. It is just a matter of locating them.NealeWellington (talk) 01:34, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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