Talk:John C. Cremony
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"the most treacherous, bloodthirsty, villainous and unmitigated rascal upon earth"
I recently added some additions and corrections to the article "John C. Cremony", only to have them immediately deleted. Thinking I might have not actually posted my corrections, I rewrote them and posted them again, only to have them immediately censored and replaced by the original article. This happened a third time, also immediately. Nobody gave any reason for this. I had just finished Cremony's *Life Among the Apaches* and sought more information about the author. The short article stated that Cremony admired the Apaches, but I quoted him as asserting that they were "the most treacherous, bloodthirsty, villainous and unmitigated rascal[s] upon earth.... incapable of improvement." [This is from p 320 of the Wildside reprint; the entire book is available on Google Books.] I wonder how anybody could say that Cremony admired, or was a friend of, the Apaches. Anyone doubting the accuracy of my own post can read the last five or six pages of the book, although they only restate what Cremony had said throughout the book. I am disillusioned to learn that someone can instantly censor my additions and replace them with the original errors. LosAngeles08 (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- It is true that Cremony's book says that the Apache is "the most treacherous, bloodthirsty, villainous and unmitigated rascal upon earth". What is not good about your addition is that it adds your opinion that he was a genocidal racist white supremacist. Rather than drawing material from Cremony's book, why don't you limit yourself to WP:SECONDARY sources that analyze Cremony. Binksternet (talk) 03:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm going to work on a compromise version. I agree that LA08's edits introduced a lot of POV writing, but the current text saying he was an admirer of the Apaches is from a really low-quality source. I think that judicious use of the primary source could be appropriate. Calliopejen1 (talk) 12:14, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- LosAngeles08:>I wonder how anybody could say that Cremony admired, or was a friend of, the Apaches. < I have had the book for over twenty years and always assumed he was and admirer and a friend of the Apaches.
John C. Cremony as a Racist
As I said, I am new to posting on Wikipedia. So I do not understand how quoting from the book written by the subject of the article [John Cremony] can be unacceptable. Cannot an article about a person primarily known for a specific book, quote that book in support of comments made about its author?I said that he came close to being a genocidal racist, and although this might count as an opinion, the article I corrected claimed that Cremony was a friend and admirer of the Apaches. Is this not an opinion? Can anyone who has read the book believe this? How does this square with the lines I quoted, which appear as Cremony's summing-up at the very end of his book? Anyone can find the quotes I cited on Google Books, so *Life Among the Apaches* does not constitute "original research" as defined by Wikipedia, at least as I understand it. I am sincerely mystified and upset at this. I was not intending to start a quarrel. I do appreciate Wikipedia users who have helped me understand how Wikipedia works. I still have much to learn. I've even found out what "tildes" are. LosAngeles08 (talk) 04:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Read up on primary sources, etc. Find a book about Cremony and see what folks have to say about him. It's not rocket surgery. Don't worry about being new, everyone was new at one point.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:53, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Interesting summary of sources
I found some document on the ASU servers here that cites a bunch of potentially useful sources and has some information I can't confirm elsewhere. (Born in St. Martin? Ran off to sea?) Where Cremony was born is hard to figure out - I see low-quality sources saying Boston, Portland (Maine), and now St. Martin.... Calliopejen1 (talk) 12:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Very interesting, hae two conflicting sources on his death, too. SF and Peking, China. Unfortunately, that's the problem with researching some of these 2nd and 3rd tier historical characters, revisionist history aside.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:36, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
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