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Given that Karima has taken a completely different approach to her public persona, particularly in aligning her work with the Amazigh movement, of which she has been a vocal advocate, it makes sense to include her ethnicity and what she is known for in the introduction. After all, her songs over the past year, as well as her social media and television appearances, have focused on her Amazigh heritage. Therefore, it would be appropriate to revise her introduction to reflect this context.
However, it remains challenging because much of the existing writing about her is unsubstantiated. It would be helpful if reliable sources were included. As I try to navigate this process, I would appreciate your definition of WP:OR
, especially since you consider a credible interview with her—whether video or written—not to be a reliable source, while a link from a talent show website is acceptable. I acknowledge that I made the mistake of not including information about her current activities to justify the addition of her ethnicity in the introduction.
This message refers to SkitashTahaKahi (talk) 12:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have read that, however, as stated in the rule 'unless relevant to the subject's notability,' Karima Gouit is notable for her Amazigh songs and her work in promoting Amazigh heritage, afterall, this is the persona she is trying to sell, being an "amazigh" star. Therefore, I still don’t see where the issue lies, aside from the need to rework the introduction to better reflect her current fame. TahaKahi (talk) 06:40, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not relevant to her notability unless RS say so. The source you provided is WP:UNDUE. Furthermore, your own source says she is yet to make a Berber song (she hasn't made one yet), so why did you add Berber music to the infobox and remove Arab music (when that's what she's known for)? Skitash (talk) 10:17, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me clarify what I mentioned to another person who asked me to cite the same interview you suggested removing, the source i added was for her "heritage" part, but for your own question about her not making any "berber" song, All of her songs since 2023 have been sung in Tamazight, with the exception of a collaboration she did two years ago. You can verify this by checking her YouTube channel, social media, or attending one of her concerts—or any concerts she's participated in. That said, I plan to include a few more interviews once I find them before updating her wiki page next time, especially since her work was deemed "uncitable" by the other person. I will keep the Arabic music as part of her portfolio, even though she has focused primarily on Tamazight music since rising to fame in recent years. few things that took one google search to find: https://www.lesiteinfo.com/maroc/543568-karima-gouit-lance-une-chanson-amazigh-video.html , https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1028260958669071&id=100044555284275&set=a.245275766967598 , https://article19.ma/accueil/archives/161244TahaKahi (talk) 12:32, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have you responded to my previous reply, or should I assume you understand my point of view on the matter and are okay with further editing the wiki page as stated above? TahaKahi (talk) 09:12, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment, you are the only editor. The other editor and I have come to an understanding after we conversed, and you can see this reflected in the conversation. My first edit with him didn't use any citations to support the cause of the edit, which makes you the only person contesting it at the moment. Again, referring to MOS
, I have made it clear, through some of the citations I've included in my previous reply, that it falls under the guideline 'unless relevant to the subject's notability.' Karima is a major Amazigh activist, which is evident through her songs and interviews and her own words. Please, read my reply and approach this with genuine consideration, and thank you!" TahaKahi (talk) 12:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I only expressed a desire for you to find sources rather than simply insisting what you were saying was true. I have not reviewed the exact sources you found, so it cannot be said I agree (or disagree) with the use of these specific sources.
However, I think Skitash's objection is quite strong; there's a difference between a citation that says she is of Berber origin and one that demonstrates that she's notable largely because she's of Berber origin. Where is the supporting source for that claim? And again, this is a repeat of the problem I was objecting too earlier; you're simply saying that it is evident. Where are the articles that primarily talk about her ethnicity? CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 13:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ⴽⴰⵔⵉⵎⴰ , That's her name in Tamazight, but regardless, if anyone takes a look at her latest songs, which are mostly in Tamazight, checks her Facebook page, which has many posts about her promoting Amazigh heritage and waving the Amazigh flag, or reviews all the articles I've cited so far, they'll see that she is actively promoting this same heritage ad making it part of her fame "brand.
I don't think you're fully grasping what the objection is here. Her heritage being part of her fame and her heritage being a large part of why she is notable in the first place are not identical things. Dwayne Johnson/The Rock's Samoan heritage has been a big part of his career, personal life, and public image. But the fact that he is of Samoan heritage and acknowledges it frequently is not why he's notable. So in the lede, he's an American actor/wrestler, not a "African-Samoan" actor/wrestler. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the difference is that Dwayne Johnson doesn’t wrestle under his heritage name, and J. Cole doesn’t rap in his native language to be labeled a "German" rapper. However, in Karima’s case, she sings in Tamazight in nearly all of her 'major' songs. It’s central to her fame, as her most popular songs are either entirely in or include Tamazight.
I can understand, to some extent, the argument that it may not be necessary to highlight this in the introduction. However, it’s clear that the page needs updating, especially since many people don’t even know she was once part of a musical talent show in Turkey, but its placed in the introduction as if its how she rose to fame, but its her television appearances in shows. Instead, she’s primarily known as a major television actress and a Tamazight singer. Her music genres should reflect what she actually does: Berber/Amazigh music. This, along with her accomplishments, should be detailed in the body of the Wikipedia page and hopefully isnt reverted if properly cited?
Additionally, her name’s translation in the intro should include the Tamazight version. It would be strange to consider it a "foreign" language for someone who primarily sings in it and resides in a predominantly Amazigh city no? im not simply arguing over the ancestry part, im okay with it not being included regardless if its her main advertisement, but i know Skitash would revert adding the tamazight translation of her name and consider it WP:FORLANG, as he and a few others has done to a few other pages that are amazigh related or of singers that utilize tamazight in their songs. TahaKahi (talk) 16:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
