Talk:Kathak

Background

Hi, I am a Kathak practitioner and would like to share few facts that have recently been discovered. These are a couple of literary references from fourth century BC and third century BC that refer to Kathak dancers. The two texts were discovered in the archives

These are as follows: ‘maggasirasuddhapakkhe nakkhhate varanaseeye nayareeye uttarpuratthime diseebhage gangaye mahanadeeye tate savvokathako bhingarnatenam teese stuti kayam yehi raya adinaho bhavenam passayi’ (ancient Prakrit text, 4th century BC)

(ie In the month of magha, in the period of shukla paksha nakshatra, to the north west of Varanasi, on the banks of the Ganges, the shringar dance of the kathaks in praise of God, pleased Lord Adinatha).

(The Prakrit text in Prakrit script is available with me)

B: 3rd century BC Sanskrit shloka:

…….anahat …. nrityadharmam kathakaccha devalokam ….. (Mithila, late Mauryan period)

{ie ‘ …. sound …. and the Kathaks whose duty is dance towards devalok or heaven…..’}

C: The 2 verses from the Mahabharata also refer to Kathaks:

‘Kathakscapare rajan sravanasca vanaukasahadivyakhyanani ye ca’pi pathanti madhuram dwijaha’

                                                       (Mahabharata, verse 1.206.2-4, Adiparva)

{ie With the king on the way to the forest were the Kathakas pleasing to the eyes and ears as they sang and narrated sweetly ….} Here the emphasis on ‘pleasing to the eyes’ is indication of the performing aspect of the ‘Kathaks’. The other verse is from the Anusasnika Parva.

In post Christian era, there is reference to Kathak in the Harsha charita of Bana

This information could be included in your main text. Regards Shovana Narayan

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Hi, I think there is a lot of repetition in the article. And it is patchy. For one, the length on Muslim influences is just too long, without much detail. If others have questions, let us discuss it here. Chaipau 22:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Kathak Yoga

This section does not beong to this article, which is about the dance form. The section rightfully belongs in its own article. Chaipau 11:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I beg to disagree. As you know art is not static, it continually evolves. Kathak Yoga represents an evolution of the dance form. The different gharanas were an innovation in their time, Kathak Yoga is a recent innovation. Please tell me if there have been any other major innovations. I can edit it for content but an article by itself is not justified. As we know there are many Kathak artists and the beauty of Kathak is that it is not dominated by one artist but is like an Indian garden, each artist comes and cross-pollinates the art. This is not fusion but innovation within the tradtion. Kathak yoga includes all the elements of kathak.

--Jpamnani 17:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The extensive treatment that is given to Kathak Yoga means it deserves its own place on Wikipedia. As you see, the Lucknow and the Jaipur Gharana themselves are not treated extensively in this article. As the Kathak article becomes bigger, they too will find their own rightful place in Wikipedia. I suggest -- mention Kathak Yoga in the Kathak article, and then give it the extensive treatment in the main article. This in no way means Kathak Yoga is not part of Kathak, because Wikipedia cannot decide on this issue. Chaipau

I think it is very rude of you to remove this article, I request you put this article back (and modify) or I will. --Jpamnani 01:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, deep breath and stay cool. (See: Wikipedia:Etiquette). I don't know much about yoga, but can you and User:Chaipau work this out as reasonable people? GChriss 03:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This article is about Kathak, the dance form. Kathak Yoga and other innovations deserve mention here. Agreed. But they should not crowd out the main article. Here, the main points of departure (or innovations) with respect to the canonical form should be mentioned. For more details a separate article on Kathak Yoga is more appropriate. Chaipau 18:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Adding kathak exponents' contact information

I think it would be useful to add links to this article to the websites of kathak exponents such as Rani Khannam or Janaki Patrik. Please let me know if there are any objections to this otherwise I will continue to do so. I had difficulty finding a teacher in my area and I think it's useful in connecting students and teachers to do this.

It is great to have links. You could also try List of Kathak dancers to add and link.

Chaipau 21:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Persian influence

Did Kathak have any significant Persian influence? I might be wrong, but isn't the influence primarily Turkic instead of Persian? deeptrivia (talk) 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi deeptrivia. I think it's difficult to trace elements from Turkic culture which could have influenced Kathak because of the sheer length of time between the time of first Turkic influence in India (the Islamic Sultanates of the 13th century) and also because of the lack of any detailed records as to what kinds of dance were performed in this period. So I suppose this doesn't prove Turkic influence on Kathak, but nor does it preclude it either during this period.

Although the Mughal rulers claimed descent from Mongols, their courts drew in many artists from Persia as well (whence came the santoor and other musical instruments), some musical modes like Raga Yaman, and so on; and of course the Sufis were influential in Kathak without necessarily being of one locality or another. Unfortunately, although for example it seems very likely that the fast spins were a result of Sufi influence (because other Indian Classical dances don't show such fast turns), it's quite difficult to prove that it wasn't an innovation by Kathak independent of outside influence. But distinguishing which movements or styles were particularly Persian, Turkic or Indian is certainly not easy.

I think the main influence was the shift to the Mughal courts, which made artists tailor their entertainment to their new audience, which necessitated incorporating ghazals and other more Islamic elements into the presentation.

H1es- 15:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Do i need to quote you how dancers from rajasthan ended up in sassanian persian courts and how these dancers ended up being gypsies in europe. Do i show you indian statuary artistic influences in sassanian arts and the elephants which were imported to support persian cavalry and how panchatantra ended up in arabian rights or hazar dastan. The influence goes mutual ways not one sided, there were indian musicians in Qajar courts just as much, santoor has been traced to ancient indian times and not related to persian instruments just as sitar is not related to persian setar in any way, i dont think that ragas were ever persian there is one raga word equivalent in persian but persians dont recognise playing any raga, ragas can be traced to ancient vedic times. There were indian classical musicians in afghanistan royal courts as well, there were indian type apsara dancers in central asia as well, rest you can take guide from my post below, so what makes you think that influence was one one way and not mutual, can you trace any indian influence on persian dance moves, not to state the obvious that persians were muslims, hindus were not and only in india the rules and morals were a bit liberal when it came to dancing, singing, painting etc. 202.188.53.210 (talk) 23:34, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Kathak bhol question

In this interview, Nitin Sawhney makes reference to a Kathak bhol - "Well I don't use dances on stage but on the visuals. I'm very into visual statements. And also tracks like The Conference even incorporate Kathak bhols from people like Birju Maharaj. The first part of The Conference actually uses one of the classic Khatak bhols from Birju Maharaj who's the greatfather at the moment of Kathak.". What would a bhol be? thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Tagishsimon, bhol in this context seems to be a mis-transliteration of bol; there's more information at that article. H1es- (talk) 12:29, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I think due credit was not given to the Bindadin maharaj, son of Durga prasad ji, it was he who carried forward the torch of gharana in lucknow. even as a child he displayed talent. Many thumris (i heard) have been credited to him. this article lacks many names, who can be also added even the UDAY Shankar has also played the role to popularise DANCE as such (instead of using kathak), RAM GOPAL is another name which was missing. while talking benaras gharana- the credit to Sukhdev maharaj was not given- He was outcasted, since in those times he taught kathak to his Daughters- great Sitara devi, great names like ALAKNANDA, Tara etc were left out- the foremost hero of kathak style GOPI KRISHNA is also to be given credit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamlesm (talk • contribs) 07:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Blogs/Non-RS

@65.93.204.249: You are edit warring with content based on websites/blogs and such sources. Please see WP:RS and WP:WWIN, then explain why your sources/edits meet these guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:12, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

non-RS sources and insertion of unsourced content

@RahulRamchandani: welcome to wikipedia. Please review wikipedia's content policies and guidelines particularly about reliable sources, WP:LEAD and inappropriate content. What are your concerns with this article? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Kathak is a South Asian dance form in general, not only Indian. Everyone knows this. But why the removal of Muslim connections? Everyone in India knows that kathak is a Muslim dance form (In the sense that Muslims have traditionally never done any other dance form). All my sources were reliable. RahulRamchandani (talk) 02:51, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

That "everyone in India knows..." and "Everyone knows this" is a pretentious claim to know what everyone knows! That omniscience is your personal flawed opinion / prejudice / wisdom, which is inappropriate for wikipedia. Please do not edit war over it, or attempt WP:LEADFIX. What you added was inappropriate summary. I did check, re-summarize source you added and moved it into the main article, few days ago. It is not appropriate for the lead per WP:LEAD. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for including it, but it is not a pretentious claim. It is a known fact. RahulRamchandani (talk) 03:57, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

serious reservations on central asian/Persian analogy

Over time, the Kathak repertoire added Persian and Central Asian themes, such as the whirling of Sufi dance, the costumes replaced Saris with items that bared midriff and included a transparent veil of the type common with medieval Harem dancers.[35][36] When the colonial European officials began arriving in India, the Kathak court entertainment they witnessed was a synthesis of the ancient Indian tradition and Central Asian-Persian dance form, and the Kathak dance performers were called the "nautch girls" (or natch, a derivative of the more difficult to pronounce Sanskrit natya).

Plaque depicting Dance and Music group, Gupta Empire, 320 CE–550 CE. New Delhi Museum

This image already shows that a courtly dance existed even during Gupta era when women already dressed in churidar dress and long tunics very identical to kathak dancers today which would be able to produce whirling moves which are being declared Persian or central asian, why is there a waist band shon in the figure why she needs to wear this waist band just like modern kathak dancers, obviously she is doing so in order to make whirling moves which may otherwise result in not very pleasant moves. Here is a figurine of mauryan court dancer not wearing sari but tight blouse and long skirt and trousers (this dress is also used by kathak dancers today) which would be perfectly able to produce whirling dance moves which is declared persian. The long tunic dresses in south asia can be traced to indus valley civilization times at least in the terracotta models of lady of the spiked throne. To expect that mauryan or gupta court dances were devoted to religion or there was no concept of even folk dancing like Kalbeliya which already uses whirling moves and was also changed by the central asian cultural influence would be very erroneous and there were no Mujra dancers in the red light districts in ancient india and every dance was devoted to shiva or vishnu, these are very european centred assumptions just because we only have religious texts surviving and not many courtly texts from the secular lives of the indians. We also dont have any record of persian courtly dance before islamic invasion just like we dont have records of imperial courts of the guptas or the mauryas so how do we automatically assume that kathak was persinised?, in islamic tradition it became taboo to dance and perform erotic manuvers so how do we know that these erotic dance moves were from the persians. the mindset of european scholars is premeditated in declaring many indian traditions which may minutely resemble other cutures as derivitives of foreign elements without any proper research. 202.188.53.210 (talk) 20:20, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

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• Shinjini kulkarni actor and kathak dancer 07.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:42, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

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Dubious additions

@SpinnerLaserzthe2nd: Navtemps are navigational aids what is the point of adding them if they don't link here. Further, Kathak in post-independent Pakistan is virtually absent (the few performers that do exist trained in India/elsewhere) and I don't see why it needs insertion as such and the article has been stable without since its creation. Even the source, a PR piece (non-RS) about a talk on Kathak dancers in India (Saswati Sen, Roshan Kumari), you added a while back also notes the same:

‘Kathak — India’s only secular classical dance form’
Kathak, a classical Indian dance form
ASG President Parveen Malik said the talk is part of the organization’s efforts to revive Pakistan’s lost cultural heritage.
Today, Mr Adnan lamented, Kathak is a dying art form in Pakistan with its most well-known exponents fading away into obscurity.

Your additions have been reverted by different editors, multiple times. Please don't re-insert them without gaining consensus. Gotitbro (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The latter also goes unmentioned in 3rd-party sources: Britannica, Bigenc, Lexdk. Gotitbro (talk) 13:41, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Again nav temps which do not even link to this page serve no purpose, i.e., in this case {{Islam}}; I removed all other irrelevant templates as such as well. Obscurity is not of much note to be mentioned in the lead (even if we accept the cats) as shown by the 3rd-part encyclopedia articles above. If you want to delve into this aspect you can expand the post-independent era section (through scholarly sources) but WP:LEADFIXation is not the way to go. Gotitbro (talk) 15:43, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@SpinnerLaserzthe2nd: You do understand the purpose of WP:Navigation templates? They are navigation aids, meant to help readers reach other relevant articles where the current one is usually linked within the template, the {{Islam}} does not link here at all and neither have you put an effort to add a link thereto. We also have {{Islamic culture}} and {{Islamic art}} templates which might be the more relevant place to place the link to here but do not add any templates to this article unless a link pertains to here. You have not chosen to enagage in any discussion and yet continue to edit war; this is not how WP operates, if you continue as such I am afraid a WP:ANI might be needed. Gotitbro (talk) 19:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

You telling me this because you are from India or have interests in India? I tried to find a sources that this dance form might be practiced in Pakistan too. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 21:56, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

What is with the aspersive personal attack? Never attack editors based on your presumption of their nationalities (which should not be be presumed in the first place), please do not repeat this. Discuss the content not editors.

Kathak in Pakistan is not in dispute (never was actually, only its placement in the lead per WP:DUE was). The question that remains now is why do you keep inserting a template that does not link to this in the first place, "edit the template first" with a link a pointing to here if you ever want to insert a nav template to articles. Your edits might be an attempt at parity but they are a poor attempt of that, irrelevant additions do not help Wikipedia at all. Gotitbro (talk) 14:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)