Talk:Kochari

Comment

I don't understand why this article was greatly shortened by User:Nareklm on January 31, 2007. The description of the dance, although imperfect, seems quite relevant to the article. Also, the names in other languages should certainly be included unless they are to be split off to separate articles (if they are significantly different). I have re-added the lost imformation pending an explanation. Rigadoun (talk) 16:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Armenian name (Քոչարի) added, the Armenian sript template can be removed Armatura 19:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

A subsection "See Also" was added with a single link "Assyrian dance". What the professionals do think, is Assyrian dance closely related with Kochari? Do we need a link for it on Kochari page? --Armatura 19:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The Assyrian dance is obviously not needed, if we put that than put Turkish, Armenian, Greek dance links also and we don't want to clog it up with all those. Nareklm 19:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed this part because we don't need it its not relevant to the article, make an new article than post it there please [1]. Nareklm 19:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the audiolink "Kochari - Assyriant variant" is from a CD called "Assyrian folk dances", what do you think, is it a reason to add Assyrian dance link to 'See Also' subsection? I suppose we need a referenced statement proving that Assyrians too were inhabitants of Kars, along with Pontic Greeks, Armenians and Turks. Armatura 00:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't find any source to suggest that the koçari and the Kurdish govend dance are related, other than the fact that both are line dances with music commonly in 2/4 time - and by that logic, halay, çepki, and lorke would need to be included. Anyone? Otherwise, I'll delete that line in the first section. The most writing I've found on koçari dances done today in Turkey is in Öztürk, Özhan (2005). Karadeniz: Ansiklopedik Sözlük – in the section on horon dances, which mentions the existence of a few named koçari (kotsari, etc) in Erzurum and Samsun. eliotbates (talk) 00:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Kurds

Well well, didnt anyone have in mind that the Kurds actually dance this too? Anyway, i put it in.

And also, the word "kocher" is originally kurdish which means "nomad". And when you add the "-i", like "kocheri" it becomes "nomad-ian". So "kocheri" means "nomadian" in kurdish, which refers to "nomadian dance" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdalo (talk • contribs) 12:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Kochari has no characteristic of a Turkish word.

Kochari means nomad in almost all Turkic languages. If you have academic sources about the etymology of the word, please provide them. Grandmaster 07:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence of that? Even if true (would be weird, since the word does not by sound look like a Turkic word) that would be a coincidence. Koch is an Armenian derived word related to foot, shoe... (koshkakar (showmaker), koshik (shoe)), ari is a known Armenian terminaison. Also, you keep removing any alusion to it's Armenian nature, but check google-book... all sources relate to it as an Armenian dance. It's origin was from the Pontus region. Ionidasz (talk) 14:06, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

From an ethimologic point of view, Kochari (with the 'ari') would mean on shoe, with the shoe... or the ari could be use the verbalize and make it an action. Ionidasz (talk) 14:11, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Just open any Azerbaijani or Turkish dictionary, and look for the word köçəri. Köç means to migrate. Köçəri means nomad. Grandmaster 14:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

The word being in a Turkish or Kurdish dictionary does not mean it is a Kurdish or Turkish word; you can find the word "cheque" in all English dictionaries, but it is a French word. ArmenianSniper (talk) 07:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Even if that were to be true, how does this compare with the Armenian transliteration which is a verb along the lines of using feets? Nomad just does not make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ionidasz (talk • contribs) 16:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Feet do not make sense either. It is just a fact that the word has a meaning in Turkic languages. Plus, all the things common to the people of the region have Turkic names. Grandmaster 17:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It actually does, koch is a generic term to anything related to the leg, I have a dictionnary here which also translate it as knee too. Also in Armenian the term Kochari is always following with the term bar (danse)..., the Pontic Greeks too never call it Kochari alone. You also did not answer on why every hits on google book write about Khochari in works dealing with Armenia and Armenians. I actually doubt that the Turkish Kochari is actually Turkish... ari is not a common Turkish terminaison and is not an ethimologically Turkish terminaison. Ionidasz (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I was just chating with a Turkish friend who is a linguist, he confirmed..., the 'ebe' terminaison is used for nomad, such as göçebe, he also told me that it is in Azeri that the ari terminaison is added, such as köçəri and the əri must've been a foreign influence and modern. Ionidasz (talk) 17:33, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

He also tells me that in some Kurdish dialects Kochari means nomad. So the Azeri word seems to be of Iranian-Turkish merging. So, that it means anything in Azeri appears to be simply a coincidence. Ionidasz (talk) 17:38, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

We do not engage in original research here. We can only refer to academic sources. The only verifiable info is that the word kochari has a meaning in Azerbaijani and Turkish. Grandmaster 20:13, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Website of Turkish Ministry for culture mentions Köçeri: [2], so the word exists in Turkish language. As for google books, only Armenian authors claim that kochari is Armenian. I really do not understand this obsession to claim everything as Armenian, including such simple things as bread, apricot, various musical instruments, dances, dishes, etc. They are shared cultural heritage of all the people who inhabit the region. Unless one has a time machine to travel back thousands years and check the ethnicity of people who invented all those things, there's no way to determine the origins. Grandmaster 20:33, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

"Plus, all the things common to the people of the region have Turkic names."

This is a ridiculous and easily disproven statement. Lavash (լաւաշ) is an Armenian word used by the region as a single example - we can also reference Greek words as well. Making such an "absolutionist" statement seems a bit irresponsible when it takes a few seconds to disprove it. ArmenianSniper (talk) 07:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The website mentions it, but nomad in Turkish is göçebe not Kochari. That the dance is called by Turks Köçeri does not mean that it means nomad, it only means it in Azeri who probably barrowed it from Kurds and it's a coincidence. The history of the way Kochari was danced in Armenia preceded the presence of the Turkish population in Armenia. See here the accurate description of the evolution of that dance (the imitation of the jumping goat).

I don't know about dishes or bread, but Duduk is an Armenian instrument (the Zurna too) and the only reason I am not sourcing that is you seem too emotional about that, but whomever is the user who added this, what he wrote is accurate and he actually sourced it. Unlike what you believe there was a culture too in Anatolia and Caucasus prior to when Turks set foot to believe otherwise is to be a racist. Ionidasz (talk) 01:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

There were people in Anatolia and Caucasus even before Armenians appeared there, and those things existed as long as humankind does. I saw flutes in the museum in Qobustan which were made 10,000 years ago by cave people. The arguments about ascribing all those things to only one ethnicity are pointless. As for Kurdish origin of the word Kochari, you need an academic source to prove that. All I know is that the Azeri word derives from köç (migrate), and köçəri is the one who moves from one place to another. Grandmaster 06:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

köç is a Turkish word, ebe is an Arabic influence ari an Iranian. As for the flute, those are not flute, music pipes and flutes are different instruments. Also that there were other people than Armenians is of no importance, since out of anyone else in the region, foreign materials (Persian, Greek etc.) only described Armenians as the flute players, the Zurna for example came from a known Phrygian instrument and the word was the same in Phrygian and Armenian. Some Turkish literature even admit that. There were people in Anatolia and Caucasus even before Armenians appeared... indeed, but it's you who is claiming that nothing is culturally Armenian. Ionidasz (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Again, personal opinions about the origin of the word kochari are original research. Rules do not allow that. As for the rest, there are plenty of sources describing all those things as Turkish, Arabic, Armenian, Bulgarian, Azeri, etc. If we are to refer to those sources to claim certain ethnic origin for the things common to the region, we will have to add multiple ethnicities in the lead as the originators. It will lead us nowhere. I find edit wars about the origins of dolma, lavash, duduk, etc to be very pointless. Grandmaster 07:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually no, liguisticallly it is not OR, ari is not a Turkish suffix, it is Indo European, used in Kurdish, Armenian and Aryo (Persian etc.) which indiquate the agent, it were for those suffixes that it was proposed that there was some relation between those liguages and Basque. If you want any suffix guide or work, I have at least two different one I can cite you. But it is a fact that Koch actually goch is of Turkish origin but not 'ari', what is more interesting is that the 'ebe' suffixes used in Arabic are actually equivalent to the IE 'ari', but this is more of an exception, because the current Azeri Turkish linguage replaced that suffix with it's Turkish equivalent. As for Kochari, you seem to have missed something, I actually used a book to show you how the dance evolved in Armenia. Your last point is intriging..., if you think the edit wars are pointless, why are you edit warring then on those same articles? Ionidasz (talk) 12:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Unless you have an academic source to support your claim of Kurdish origin of the word, further discussion about this is meaningless. You showed no reliable third party sources about the origin of the dance. The article you linked to is written by certain E. Petrosian, he is clearly not third party, plus he says nothing about the origin of the dance, from what I see. And I do not edit war. I do not push the idea that the dance is Azeri, Turkish or whatever. Grandmaster 06:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

What Grandmaster doesn't seem to realize or want to admit is that Urartu is the Armenians and Armenians have been in the region for at least the 13th century BC, so the flutes he saw were either of Armenian or Persian origin - definitely not Azerbaijani in the sense of the Republic of Azerbaijan - the Azeris of the republic and the Azeris of northern Iran are two different peoples. In addition, he speaks of a 3rd party source, but then references a museum in Azerbaijan as his reasoning - a nation which constantly claims the culture of others as their own and desecrates the historic monuments of others to eliminate historic claims. ArmenianSniper (talk) 07:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

How racistic, because his name ends with a ian he should not be credible. I am searching for such a rule on Wikipedia to not avail. Fact is that ari is an Indo-European suffix and not Turkish. Ionidasz (talk) 22:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Check WP:V: Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Armenian sources are not third party in this context. I can site Azerbaijani sources saying something quite different. And I'm not going to discuss etymology unless you provide reliable sources to support your claims. See WP:OR. Grandmaster 07:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Third party sources are on the publisher of the book, not the writer, it is plain racist to reject a writer based on his ethnicity. Ionidasz (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Publisher is irrelevant here, the source must have no bias, and be independent. There's nothing racist in asking for a third party source in accordance with the rules. The Wikipedia rules are not racist. I can provide Azerbaijani sources saying that the dance has an Azerbaijani origin, and Turkish ones saying that it is Turkish by origin. But it is not gonna get us anywhere. There's a reason why the rules require third party sources. Grandmaster 19:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Köçəri perfectly fits the framework of Turkic morphology. Köç is a Turkic word meaning 'migration' which was borrowed into many other Eurasian languages. In Anatolia, voiceless stops occuring before front vowels have undergone voicing, which is why in standard Turkish the word sounds as göç (cf. Azeri keçid vs. Turkish geçit for 'passage'; Azeri könül vs. Turkish gönül for 'heart'). -ar/ər (in Turkish, -ar/er) is a suffix that forms participles which can also function independently as agent nouns, e.g. Turkish yaz ('write') → yazar ('writing', as in 'writing pen', or when used by itself, 'writer'); Azeri gül ('smile') → Gülər ('smiling one', roughly 'smiler', personal name). Thus we have the word köçər (in Azeri) or göçer (in Turkish), both meaning 'nomad' (lit. 'migrant'). Finally we have the suffix -i which is actually of Indo-European origin, but has naturalised in Oghuz languages and became subject to full vowel harmony, having four variants (-ı/i/u/ü). It is often used to form adjective-like names from nouns to denote colours or traditional tunes or dances, and there are dozens of examples in Azeri, e.g. innab → innabı, Qazax → qazaxı, Qarabağ → asta qarabağı, Qaytağ → qaytağı, lacıvərd → lacıvərdi, bənövşə → bənövşəyi, qəhvə → qəhvəyi, gümüş → gümüşü, kürd → kürdü şahnaz, and, finally, köçər → köçəri. Parishan (talk) 04:19, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

That's original research... the first voyel Turkishness is not questionned..., it is your claim that ar and i are independent..., but that's not what we have when we consider that ebe in the Turkish is replaced by ari in Azeri. Ionidasz (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

This is not original research. These are existing suffixes in Turkish and Azeri, and any dictionary would demonstrate the existence of these words in either language. The fact that Turkish has an additional suffix -ebe does not undo the fact that göçeri is a Turkish word formed from göçer which in term is formed from göç. Turkish and Azeri are agglutinative languages; for them, suffixation is the only method of word-formation. Parishan (talk) 21:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

It is orignal research, what is not is that 'ebe' is the suffix used in Turkish... and this is replaced by 'ari' in Azeri Turkish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ionidasz (talk • contribs) 17:55, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not understand how a thorough analysis of Turkic suffixation that can be checked in any dictionary is original research, yet completely baseless and nonsensical statements of yours such as the one above is "not original research." Are you trying to buy yourself time? There is no -ari suffix in Azeri. If yes, I would like to see some other examples. In the meantime, here is a list of Turkish suffixes here, on which you can find both -ar/er as a suffix which forms participles and -ı/i/u/ü, possessive suffixes. Parishan (talk) 03:09, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about..., since that's what I have been saying..., ari is an indo-European suffix... it is your claim that the suffix is ar and there is only an i added to it. Ionidasz (talk) 13:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

My claim is supported by sources. What is your claim ("this is replaced by 'ari' in Azeri Turkish") supported by? Parishan (talk) 20:14, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Etymologies doubtful

As a linguist, I notice that the various etymologies in each language are most probably folk etymologies, i.e. not actual scientific ones. Here's why:

1. We have an almost identical word in each language for a similar dance, hence the word must originate from one language (not necessarily one of the mentioned). (@Azeris&Turks: sit down, please, we haven't established the origin yet, so don't shout "Turkish!", hehe)

2. kotsi-, kotso- might be Greek terms, but what exactly does the precise form "kotsari" mean and what is the morphological explanation for this term? The Armenian etymology here is doubtful (can anyone refer me to a dictionary with "koch" for "knee"? I thought it's "tzunk", and ari is imperative of gal (to come), so "come!"). I don't think any of these explanations are true etymologies, but rather folk etymologies (i.e. when a usually foreign word is reanalysed to match similar sounding terms in one's native language). I am not sure about the origin of this word, but STRONGLY suggest against a Greek origin, for if it was Greek, it would have been borrowed in Armenian as "Kotsari" (Armenian has "ts"), so it is reasonable to assume koCH- as the original form. And as soon as I am back in my office and have my dictionaries with me, I will write about possible Iranian derivations. But for the moment, that's it so far.

Just my two cents ;)

Hi. Maybe this is a recent update and you haven't had the chance to see it, but the word in Armenian is not composed of "քոչ" (k'oč') + "արի" (ari), but rather "գուճ" (guč) + "արի" (ari). The word "գուճ" (guč) is from Classical Armenian (some like to call it Old Armenian) just like "ծունկ" (cunk), and is a synonym for it. It is not used much anymore, except in poetry.

The form "քոչարի" (k'oč'ari) is most likely a result of contact with Azerbaijani "köçəri", and the pronounciation is most likely affected by it. The original form, therefore, would be "գուճարի" (gučari) and not "քոչարի" (k'oč'ari).

Here are a few dictionaries that register the aforementioned root, all reputable Armenian sources:

Institute of Language named after Hrač'eay Ačarean:, "Explanatory Dictionary of the Modern Armenian Language" (in Armenian), Yerevan, Publishing House of the Academy of Sciences of the Armenian SSR, 1969. http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=29&dt=HY_HY&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3

Ēduard Bagrati Aġayan, "Explanatory dictionary of modern Armenian" (in Armenian), Yerevan, "Hayastan", 1976. http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=24&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3

Nayiri Online Dictionary (Armenian to English) http://www.nayiri.com/search?dt=HY_EN&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3&l=en

Nayiri Online Dictionary (in Armenian) http://www.nayiri.com/search?dt=HY_HY&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3&l=en Աշոտ (talk) 05:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

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Etymology of the word is explained completely wrong

"Kochari" isn't (directly) linked to the armenian/kurdish/turkish word for "to migrate" or "nomad" although it sounds very similar. That's a folk etymology without any sense or connection to what the dance expresses. The original form in Armenian is "ghoch" meaning "ram" or "brave", this form is also linked to the armenian word "qaj" or "qajari" also meaning "brave". Kochari is generally regarded as a war dance, hence traditionally only danced by men. It is possible that in iranian languages (as kurdish) the same word root with the same meaning is in use, I don't know. By the way, regarding the turkish/azeri explanation of the word as "nomad" I have to mention that the turkish word "köc" itself isn't originally turkish but derived from indo-european languages (either iranian or armenian). In Armenian we say "qochel" for "to migrate", "qochvor" for "nomad", both derived from "korchel" meaning "to disappear or to go away". Even in slavic languanges this indo-european word root exists, as "kochevnik" in Russian or "koczownik" in polish. It is always helpful to look where the dance was common. It is obvious that under Armenians Kochari is regarded as "main folk dance" and while the dance is danced by nearly all Armenians from all former armenian-inhabitated regions, the dance is only common under those azeris, turks, kurds, assyrians and greeks who lived for long time next to an armenian majority. The dance itself has many similarities with the line dances of the other mentioned people, but "Kochari" is the armenian version of that common dance tradition. I am far away from nationalist idiotism. Armenians share many dances with the neighbouring people, some of them have armenian names, some have non-armenian names, some names cannot be fully explained by any language. But everytime we try to explain a word we must look at all possible explanations and follow the most logic one. And it makes no sense to translate this word with the plural form of "nomad". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vahram1990 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Interfase edits

Could you explain your edits [3] if there are clear links provided? Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Do these sources claim that the all versions of Kochari including Azerbaijani Kochari have Armenian origin? --Interfase (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

We have reliable sources claiming Kochari an Armenian folk dance. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 18:34, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

So? We also have reliable sources claiming Kochari an Azerbaijani folk dance, one version of Azerbaijani yalli. But you removed this information claiming "nothing about the Azerbaijani origin of the dance". Remember? --Interfase (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Could you share with me a WP:RS stating that Kochari is an Azerbaijani folk dance. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 08:15, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

There are a enough:

1. Dr. Gülnaz Abdullazade. Nakhchivan Yally as a Trace of Modern Ethnomusicology // Müzik'te stratejik yaklaşımlar uluslararası sempozyumu bildiriler kitabı. Istanbul. 2018:

Yally dance occupy a special place among Azerbaijani dances... Agida Alakbarova, a music expert who has long been examining Nakhchivan yally has revealed 11 versions of "Tanzara " and 10 versions of "Kochari" yallı... The research was published on the basis of the notation of 90 different kind of Azerbaijani yally, collected by Rauf Bahmanli from Nakhchivan region. 20 of them consist of one part, 66 of them 2 part and 4 of them consist of 3 part. There are many yally types such as : “Urfani”, “Gopu”, “Dona”, “Qazi-qazi”, “Kochari”, “Tanzara”, “Qanimo”, “Xalafi”, “Tello”, “Nare”, “Chop-chopu”, “Hoynare”, and “Havarı”, “Darvish baba”, “Oravan”, “Dizdan qirma”, “Pasha kochdu”, “Gulu basma”, “Ala gulbangi”, “Aghbulaq”, “Ului yurd”, “Aghbaba”, “Mazra”, “Goycha”, “Haji Nazar”, “Papili”, “Qalacha”, Yellija”, Istibulaq” in the collection.

2. Bayram Huseynli. Azerbaijani folk dance melodies. I book. Baku, 1965. Kochari described by Soviet musicologist Bayram Huseynli among Azerbaijani yally dances (page 8) and its sheet notes provided at the page 25.

3. Agida Alakbarova. "Yally" cirlce dances of the Nakhichevan zone. Baku, 1994. Art critic Agida Alakbarova, whose work was mentione in article above, described Kochari as a type of Azerbaijani yally.

4. UNESCO included Kochari (type of Azerbaijani yally from Nakhchivan) as a Azerbaijani cultural heritage to its list

5. Gottlieb, Robert (26 July 1998). "Astaire to Zopy-Zopy". New York Times.:

I find it difficult to imagine someone without a predisposition to read about such matters as Azerbaijani folk dance (One type of yally has various forms known as kochari, uchayag, tello, and galadangalaya; another type is a dance mixed with games called gazy-gazy, zopy-zopy, and chopu-chopu) browsing profitably through Oxford's many hundreds of pages of such information.

As you can see, there are a enough reliable sources claimig that Kochari is a type of Azerbaijani yally danced in Nakhchivan region. Interfase (talk) 16:37, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

From these sources, only 4 and 5 points considered reliable per wiki-policies. However, if we read the full article [4], we see it is based on WP:OPINION and the author talks about marginalization in culture, not about "Azerbaijani folk dance." About UNESCO article, it doesn't say anything about Kochari being an Azerbaijani folk dance. About Yalli is already written in this section. I agree, that the sentence Kochari is an Armenian folk dance, danced today by "Kurds, Assyrians, Azerbaijanis.." somehow gives wrong impression as we have no sources for that. I suggest this way: Kochari is an Armenian folk dance, danced today by different people from the Caucasus, Anatolia and Middle East. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Disagree. It is not only Armenian folk dance. Source are provided. 1, 2 and 3 sources are reliable profile sources per wiki-policies about the musicology and clearly state that there is type of Azerbaijani Yalli known as Kochari. The authors are specialists and musicologists and we can rely on them to confirm that there is such Azerbaijani dance Kochari, type of Yalli. UNESCO web-site also mentioned Kochari as a type of Azerbaijani Yalli danced in Nakhchivan. New York Times also mentioned Kochari within Azerbaijani folk dances. That is why your version is against WP:NPV. Interfase (talk) 16:26, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous claim by @Interfase - it only states the Azeris will dance the Kochari, not that it IS their dance. It's akin to stating Armenians dancing salsa in Yerevan means salsa is an Armenian dance. Additionally, the Kochari dance is recognized by the UNESCO as Armenian on the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity (https://ich.unesco.org/en/RL/kochari-traditional-group-dance-01295). Just because Azeris include in "Yalli" doesn't mean anything. Azeris and Turks eat lavash bread, but it's Armenian, not Turkic. ArmenianSniper (talk) 07:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Sources

The sources placed in the article to justify claims are in and of themselves evidence of the false claims of turkic origin. As an example, one of the previously posted sources (removed by me) which was in Turkish (https://turkcenedemek.com/kelime/ko%C3%A7er/) states the following (translated into English):

"The first time the word Koçer was known in history was kivre/kirva Hamit Zübeyr & İshak Refet, Compilations from the Mother Tongue (1932) kirve [ c (1974): President Celal Bayar became kirve for the second time in Adana. ] was included in his work."

The original:

Koçer kelimesi tarihte bilinen ilk kez kivre/kirva Hamit Zübeyr & İshak Refet, Anadilden Derlemeler (1932)kirve [ c (1974) : Cumhurbaşkanı Celal Bayar Adana'da ikinci defa kirve olmuştur. ] eserinde yer almıştır.

Now that this section has been removed, a different sources is being submitted which is merely a dictionary providing no references to the root of the word outside of claiming a possible Farsi root. When the new source was placed along with the deletion being reverted, the section still lacks a source for the claim of the word being a of a turkish root.

There is an upcoming editing war and I propose this page be locked. ArmenianSniper (talk) 06:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@ArmenianSniper That source is non-WP:RS and mirrors Sevan Nişanyan's Turkish etymological dictionary. It erroneously includes the first written instance for the term kirve under the entry for koçer, whereas the original source doesn't even have that. That is clearly a mistake and is one of the manifestations why that website is not reliable.

If you were to take a slightly closer look, you would see that I have replaced that site with the original source, which is widely cited throughout Wikipedia. You should bring that to WP:RSN if you believe it should not be used at all.

Moreover, it is clear that there is a language barrier in your case, because the soruce doesn't say it is a loanword from Farsi, but instead the Farsi and Kurdish terms were borrowed from Turkish. Aintabli (talk) 06:49, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aintabli

As previously stated, this source does not provide evidence of the word's root. Having a word in a dictionary merely provides a definition, regardless of who's work the dictionary is. As stated in my initial entry, I see you have replaced the source but, again, the replacement does not provide information on the word's root. ArmenianSniper (talk) 06:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@ArmenianSniper The source does provide a root for the term, and it is an etymological dictionary. Any other issues? Aintabli (talk) 06:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

This shouldn't be so difficult. It states Azeris/Turks have taken the word from Kurdish, but it does not prove the word itself is Kurdish at its root. ArmenianSniper (talk) 07:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Per WP:GF, I was assuming that the translation software you're using is malfunctioning, but here is the English translation from Google Translate:

It is a loanword from the Kurdish (Kurmanji) word kocer "nomadic, nomadic". This word is a loanword from the Azerbaijani word köçer or the Turkey Turkish word göçer, which has the same meaning. Kurdish (Kurmanji) and Persian koc "migration, migration" should be a Turkish loanword.

But it doesn't matter. You shouldn't have removed a source without a valid reason. If it really did say it was ultimately taken from Kurdish, I would expect you to add that, but instead you have been removing sources and content, which is WP:DISRUPTIVE. Aintabli (talk) 07:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I did not remove the source without a valid reason - the reason was provided. You disliking a reason does not make it invalid. ArmenianSniper (talk) 07:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, we rarely argue against a source by claiming that it does not provide evidence, unless you really have a specific, concrete reason (elaborate). If you have doubts about whether it is WP:RS, point that out in WP:RSN. And it is well visible that your removal of the New York Times article is unexplained. If I were you, I would really take some time to click and read the guidelines (links starting with "WP:"). Aintabli (talk) 08:11, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Third opinion

I am creating this sub-thread to allow a clean start for any WP:3O. There are mainly two sources to be discussed:

1. A source ArmenianSniper has removed (website turkcenedemek) was erroneously mirroring Nişanyan's etymological dictionary (similar to websites that "mirror" Wikipedia). Although I have replaced it with the original source, they are still disputing it, because it doesn't provide evidence. Nişanyan is widely cited throughout Wikipedia, and I've told them they could bring it up at WP:RSN twice, but they simply continued to WP:REHASH.
2. I would also like to highlight the New York Times article that ArmenianSniper removed, which we haven't discussed above. First, ArmenianSniper removed it because it was inaccessible. (I thought it was an issue of dead url, but no, it simply requires a subscription, which is not enough of a reason to remove an RS. But still, then, I readded it with an archived url. ArmenianSniper removed it again, claiming it was still inaccessible. News flash: Thanks to the archived url, it is fully accessible now, they just had to click: [5]

These are not all the removals they have made, many of which could also be disputed. But let's first go through these two. Aintabli (talk) 18:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aintabli CC @ArmenianSniper 3O Response: RSN is a more appropriate forum than 3O to discuss your first question, and I recommend bringing it there where editors who know how to evaluate sources on etymology can weigh in. Since you haven't discussed the second issue with ArmenianSniper, I won't opine. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Voorts, actually, I did bring up the second point multiple times in my edit summaries (and once here which they did not respond), but instead, ArmenianSniper continued reverting. I can now say that apart from the whole behavioral issue, the second point is also behavioral, and there is nothing to discuss content wise. The New York Times article is accessible, contrary to what they claimed, and them removing it is simply-put a violation of our policies. Aintabli (talk) 03:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

3O is a way to get a neutral person to weigh in on a content or source dispute, not a means for adjudicating behavioral conduct. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Voorts, you are correct. It is indeed not. I assumed too much GF at first by framing a behavioral issue as a content dispute. Thank you and sorry for taking your time. Aintabli (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)