Talk:Lady Shiva

R.Dragon

clarify the issue in question, but the idea of him losing one battle and almost winning the other doesn't make him the best. And if he wanted to save her soul by dying, why did he try killing her in the first battle? And if Batgirl actually defeated Shiva, and Dragon almost did, how is he the best? --DrBat 19:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

You guys really need to get over this whole deal with whether or not Nightwing should be on the list. It's getting ridiculous seeing the page edited back and forth again and again.--Halloween jack 00:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

The Question

Batman himself once said that The Question is one off the best marcial artists in DC Universe. He is also known as one of the best students of Richard Dragon and, as the mais page itself says, the standard Lady Shiva uses to measure her own skills. He deserves to be in the best fighters list, even more tham Nightwing.

It's not a list of "best fighters". It's a list of fighters that might be the best. Neither the Question, nor Black Canary, nor Nightwing has ever beaten or stalemated anyone on the list. Being someone's best student or someone's measuring stick is not enough to be considered the best. If the lists are to stay on wiki at all (and for all the arguments they cause I think they are just barely useful enough to be worth it) there needs to be some measuring stick to decide if a character can be on the list. Beating someone else on the list makes the most sense. Anything short of that is likely to make this degenerate into message-board like fighting, which has no place on wiki.D1Puck1T 07:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

To the contrary Nightwing had pinned Shiva in one of his earlist appearences. So that means Nightwing DESERVES & BELONGS on the best martial artist list Nightwing99

Okay. What I do know is that I've seen her twice kick him aside as if he was nothing more than a distraction - and when she did it during "Brotherhood of the Fist" she was chopping Connor Hawke's arrows in half with her bare hands while she did it. Furthermore, Shiva and Cassandra Cain seem evenly matched, and Cassandra treated Shrike (a character that regularly gave Dick serious problems) as if he was a joke. I'm perfectly willing to hear your arguments. But I'd be more inclinded to trust what you say if every single edit you've ever made wasn't showing a bias in favor of Nightwing. Unfortunately, well, that is the only type of edit you seem to make. It isn't personal, it just makes it difficult for me to trust that you're being objective. So I'm going to have to ask that you to please site exactly when this "pin" takes place. I'll try to track it down and check it against what you're saying. If it wasn't too long ago and it was a clear win, then maybe the debate on whether Nightwing is a current contender for the #1 slot needs to be reopened.D1Puck1T 23:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually Puck in Nightwing #55 Nightwing ended up beating Strike pretty easily nearly killing him. And in there second meeting Nightwing #91 Nightwing completely ignored him and still effortlessly kicked his ass stringing him up on a flag pole.

I think you're oversimplifying there a little, but whatever. I'm more interested in this Shiva fight. I don't remember that at all. Where did it take place?D1Puck1T 07:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

How is that oversimplifying? Did you see those issues. It was Cut and Dry, once NIghtwing got to really fighting Strike posed no serious problem as u say and definetly not in issue #91. As far as the Shiva fight Colossus34 stated that previously under skills/abilities, i was just bringing it back up. If u know him likE u knew Ipstenu maybe he/she can tell you.

HOW IS IT OVERSIMPLIFYING PUCK??Nightwing99

Wikipedia is not a message board, please do not use it as one. The point of the talk pages is to discuss why changes should be made to pages, and to try to get a consensus on what to put on a page. Yelling at other posters is not the way to convince them you are correct. To answer your question: I did not interpret the fight in "55" as being easy. Yes, he nearly killed Shrike. I believe that just showed that he had been pushed so far that he was willing to keep attacking an opponent he had already defeated. As for "91", what we saw of the fight was indeed largely in Dick's favor. However, Shrike did land two good blows. The last of his attacks that we saw even slashed through Nightwing's face. When someone's attack is inches away from being a lethal blow, that is not "no serious problem". After the face injury we do not see the rest of the fight. Yes, we know Nightwing wins, but we do not see how difficult it was, how long it took, how many blows Shrike landed, etc. Compare to Shrike's performance against Batgirl. First blow to save Tim. Second blow (using Shrike's own shuriken, caught in midair) cuts a major artery in a way that isn't lethal, but prevents Shrike from running away - she wants to interrogate him. Third blow breaks his arm and disarms him - she still just wants to interrogate him. Fourth blow knocks him out when it's clear he won't talk. Shrike's down in 4 moves, with the implication being that she could have taken him out sooner if she didn't want to interrogate him first. He didn't land one finger on her, she didn't break a sweat, and she was bored. Nightwing was almost in the exact same position, wanting information from Shrike. We do not know how many moves it took for him to defeat Shrike, but we do know that Nightwing did not walk away from the fight calm and uninjured. I like Dick, but the fights against Shrike do not make him look as good as Shiva and Cassandra.D1Puck1T 05:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Prometheus

The latest Birds of Prey (93) insinuates the Prometheus defeated both Batman and Shiva, What comic was that in? Does it count since he uses technological means to be a martial artist? --Outlawpoet 05:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It refers to his helmet, which allows him to use the fighting skills of 30 of the world's best fighters. Batman is one of them, so presumably Shiva is as well. I would say it doesn't count, since he's basically using other people's skills.D1Puck1T 22:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Prometheus beat batman in JLA issue #15. In issue #94 of Birds of Prey Prometheus beats Shiva EASILY. One hitter quiter put her on her back Shiva didn't even land a punch. Nightwing99

I repeat, what we see Prometheus do is due to his helmet, which allows him to use the fighting skills of 30 of the world's best fighters. Batman is one of them, presumably Shiva is as well. For that reason I do not believe he deserves to be on a list of the world's best martial artists. It's... well, cheating.D1Puck1T 00:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Batman

In the arc that the Joker killed Jason Todd, Batman defeated Lady Shiva in a hand to hand combat. In that fight, Batman admitted that Lady Shiva is skilled than him, BUT he is stronger, and win getting close enough to he uses immobilize her using brute force. So, it's true that Lady Shiva is better with martial artist techniques, but it doesn't mean that Batman or other character can't defeat her in a hand to hand combat.

-- Carlos Eduardo da Cruz Cunha ,May 3,2006 - Brasília - Brazil

That isn't what happened at all, Carlos. Shiva and Batman fought but she was knocked out from behind by Jason Todd. Batman has admitted in the past that Shiva is a better martial artist than he is and thinks the same of her daughter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.114.17.243 (talk) 06:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

How about when they fought during the Batman/Superman "The World's Finest" also referred to as "Public Enemies" story arc? Its the same in the animated movie as it was in the comic that she struck first got more hits in but Batman ended it knocking her out thus he also won against her in one on one combat.

WE need to TALK

Alrite, i think we need to fix this best martial artist.

A) Deathstroke should not be on there because he has cloyvoiance and increased to almost metahuman senses. No way.

b) As of right now, the Legion of Superheroes dont even exist on teh same earth as the current DC universe. They might be being dreamed up by Kara as far as we know and before Infinite Crisis, they werent the same earths. Karate Boy should not be considered here.

c) Lets leave Black Canary off. Yes, she is training under the same former master as LAdy Shiva but she has yet to complete the training. ANd Shiva has also had other masters as well so lets just leave her off until they meet again.

d) Promethesus will not count because it'll be stupid if we let him, we might as well let Superman in because im sure he can use his kung foo chop and break some fool in 1/2.

-- Darkestknight

Constantine Drakon

Shiva status seems to be droping fast looseing all these fights; Cassandra cain TWICE, both fights with Batman and Prometheus ended with her on her back from one hitter quiters and her not landing a single hit. And don't care how you look at the last fight she had with Dragon, she LOST, Dragon had her primed and ready to deliver the Leopard blow when some henchman interfered. She was gone, it was dump luck that kept her alive. Think of it like this, if your get your ass kicked up & down and by chance a rock or whatever falls from above and knock the other guy in the head disorientating him and then you gain the upper hand knock him out you still got your ass whooped, you just got lucky is all. So when do we get to see were the inigmatic Constantine Drakon rates with some of the real heavy hitters on the charts. When does he get his crack at Shiva? Is he suppose to be a meta the way moves so fast u can't see him Nightwing99

The DCU considers Shiva the worlds most feared assassin and one of the top martial artists and IMO since all these things are subjective to writers (who are as susceptible to fan-wank as the rest of us) and people's abilities flip flop in differing continuities, that's as source as we're gonna get. Frankly, Nightwing99, I'm seriously starting to consider you a Troll. Remember, Wikipedia is about working together and having your work edited by many people to come to a consensus as to what is factual and what is not. -- Ipstenu 14:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Calm down nerd boy with the TROLL stuff(how corny is that, Troll?? what is that something from your Dungeons and Dragon games)everything I stated in that previous paragraph was TRUE she loss those fights. I just was wondering when Constantine Drakon was going to get his shot against the top hitters Nighgtwing99

I believe Ipstenu is a nerd woman, actually, and she's using the word Troll with the meaning I just linked to. Anyway, back on topic. It's true, Shiva's definitely been having a rough few years. I don't think things are as clear cut as you're making out, however, at least not to the point where I think it's time to lower her status. The exact same athletes often face each other and do not get the same result each time. The loss to Batman is not a canonical loss. Yes, many people believe it should count, and that she wasn't being mind controlled, or that mind control wouldn't affect her skill, etc. Trouble is, that's all opinion. There's no DC comic where it clearly states that it meant Batman's martial arts skills were better, and there weren't any comics that said they weren't. For a discussion like this it's just something for people to bring up every once in a while, for two sides to argue about, and something you'll never get a consensus over - making it essentially pointless to even bring it up. The Promtheus fight? He has 30 of the world's best martial artists' skills in that helmet. If that's not cheating I don't know what is. That leaves Richard and Cassandra. Richard was a clear win against Shiva. Doesn't mean he'd win every time against her, but yes, I'd say that was a pretty clear win. With Cassandra you have some weird things muddying the waters. Cassandra shocks Shiva in the first fight with that "death wish" line, then K.O.s her. You could argue Shiva was off balance. Second fight she basically wanted Cassandra to beat and kill her. This isn't a message board, there's no point in debating - by wikipedia standards none of this stuff is enough to consider changing what's said about her skill. As for fighting Constantine, that's pretty much up to the writers, and I don't think anyone here knows more than you about it.D1Puck1T 01:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Karate Kid

This really applies to all the pages with those "world's best fighters" lists, but since this is the one likely to get noticed the most, I'm posting it here.

As I see it, the only justification for keeping those lists (especially in light of all the arguments they cause) is to provide new or curious readers with a quick way of looking up the other people considered to be a contender for "world's best fighter". If I didn't know for a fact that some users have done just that, I'd be all for deleting them in a heartbeat. As it stands, I think they're (just barely) worth the trouble they case. And then there's the Karate Kid. I haven't put him on any lists, but I haven't deleted him either. I haven't been sure what to do, and I'd appreciate others thoughts. The purpose of the lists, as I see it, should be to direct readers to the characters that just might be the best. Karate Kid, however, just plain is the best. Nobody argues otherwise, the only problem is that he's in the future. While it's plainly pointless to put the character in a list with Richard Dragon and Shiva, it still seems only fair that we recognize the character's abilities, and make it possible for new/curious readers to quickly find out about this character. That's the reason why I'm putting in a reference to the character that specifically stresses that he's considered apart from the others.

Prometheus 2

Hello I have a problem with ‘Prometheus, a villain with the skills of 30 of the best martial artists on the planet programmed into his helmet, is of the opinion that Lady Shiva is the third best martial artist in the world. However, not being a true martial artist himself, Prometheus' opinion carries little weight’

One problem is that it should be referenced the second problem and major problem is However, not being a true martial artist himself, Prometheus' opinion carries little weight’ who’s opinion is this did it come from the comics or from the writer. Another problem is Prometheus is an incredible skilled martial artist without the technology batman Gotham Knights 66 should be enough of a reference (not good enough too mentioned in the top dc martial artist though) and second since his analysis and studies the best martial artist choosing who to put into his head his opinion is worth mentioning. I don’t think this quote should be taken off in fact its a very good quote to have it just should be referenced and the opinion should be taken off unless it is part of the original quote.

Thanks

PS you might want to put Thomas Jagger on the list in issue 12 I think of Checkmate he defeats Bane easily something batman hasn’t done.

Martial artist nonsense

As I'm sure everyone is aware, Wikipedia does not host original research; this includes synthesis. As such I have removed the unreferenced section concerning 'greatest martial artist'. Save it for the fan forums. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

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New 52

Did any but me read the new 52 Nightwing 00 where Batman was battling Lady Shiva forcing Dick Greyson to put on his Robin suit for the first time in the new 52 verse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.183.23 (talk) 00:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

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