←Archive 7 (September 2008) Archive of Talk:Large Hadron Collider Archive 8 (mid-Sept–Oct 2008) Please do not modify

## Purpose section cleaned up

Hi, as suggested also by BenRG I have unified the opening paragraph of the Purpose section with that of the Research subsection. In doing so, I have shifted the emphasis of the paragraph from the Grand Unified Theories to the confirmation of the Standard Model (see the thread "Purpose section needs refreshing" above). I moved the sentence about Grand Unified Theories to a new item in the list of LHC physics goals. I also reworded slightly some other items of the list and reordered it. Finally I removed the references to [1], which was used as a catch-all for too many different topics in the list. I think that we should find suitable specific references for each topic, such as the one of Lisa Randall in the extra-dimension item. I also feel that the citation of Chris Quigg somewhat duplicates the one of Hawking that we have in the text, but I have not removed it yet. Finally, I added a sentence mentioning Quark-gluon plasma to the subsection on the heavy-ion programme. Any improvement to my revision will be more than welcome. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Today's New York Times has a nice piece http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/12/opinion/12greene.htmlby Brian Greene, placed in the Opinion section, but really a good clear elementary tutorial on the fundamental questions the LHC is expected to address. He orders these as:
• Completion of the Standard Model, by observation of Higgs particles.
• Observation of Supersymmetry and super symmetric particles, good candidates for ~95% of the mass in the universe.
• Detection of spatial dimensions beyond the three we know.
• Production of microscopic black holes, allowing their laboratory study.
Greene—who is actively working in the field, and has a deep understanding of the subject—is the best communicator I have seen about these matters. I recommend his material as an excellent source for our own attempts to make them more accessible. Wwheaton (talk) 16:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The article is good and Greene is undoubtedly a great communicator (he also wrote good books on the subject). I would argue however that he is not listing the production of micro black holes as the fourth "fundamental question" the LHC is expected to address. Indeed, micro black holes are one of the manifestations of large extra dimensions (the third fundamental question in your list). Green devotes a separate section of the article to micro black holes because - in his words - it's "the possibility that generated the fuss". This said, I am fully in favor of referencing this paper in the Purpose section. Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

## Getting up to speed

Anyone know how long it will take the hadrons to get up to speed once they are injected into the main ring from the linear accellerator? 81.149.82.243 (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I imagine a few miliseconds, as they are moving at near light speed when injected. Hurricanefloyd (talk) 21:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Much longer, many seconds at least, and possibly hours. I believe the time is in the 60-page CERN Brochure 2008-001, "CERN faq: LHC the guide". The issue is not speed, but energy, or beam momentum. The bending magnet fields have to be turned up as the particles are accelerated, and this takes a very large amount of energy, as the article mentions. The test on 10 September barely began this process. Wwheaton (talk) 06:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

## "in popular culture" section

BenRG (talk · contribs) recently removed several items from the "in popular culture" section. I do understand that such sections can be magnets for trivia, but I think that the latest purge might have gone a bit too far. The hidden-text note says, "A good measure of notability would be third-party coverage or a response by CERN, for example Angels and Demons." The Torchwood radio play was covered by The Sunday Times and other British media, and James Gillies, CERN's head of communication, wrote an essay for BBC Radio 4 commenting on the radio play. That's third-party coverage and a response by CERN. There's a bit more about the public response to the play at Lost Souls (Torchwood)#Broadcast and reception; I'm sure that more will follow in the next few days when reviews come in from the national newspapers. (Doctor Who and Torchwood customarily get such reviews in the UK press.)

Given this, I'm inclined to put the Torchwood play back in. The mention needn't be long, just enough to establish its notability and point readers to Lost Souls (Torchwood). But I do think that it merits inclusion. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 19:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't object to adding this back in. Popular-culture sections do tend to grow uncontrollably, but maybe the buzzcut I gave it was a bit too much. -- BenRG (talk) 20:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

--

Canadian author Robert J. Sawyer wrote a speculative fiction novel called "Flashforward" about a fictional LHC scientist. It would be worth it to add to the popular culture list as the LHC is at the centre of the novel. In the story, activation of the LHC gives everyone on the planet a vision of their life 20 years in the future; the novel deals with the implications of the visions and the scientist's involvement. Here is a link to the outline on Sawyer's website: http://www.sfwriter.com/ouff.htm

On the point of cleaning up the popular culture section: it's called popular culture because it's popular. It's not like the page is going to run out of room if Wikipedia lists all references in pop culture. I think it's important to have a list of all refrences to popular culture, even if they don't meet BenRG's standards.

-Ashleigh 14 September 2008

## Timeline for first collisions

Hi, the October subsection of the Timeline section reads <The first high-energy collisions are planned to take place after the LHC is officially unveiled on 21 October 2008.> quotes an article in some russian online newspaper. In the article there is no information on when the first high-energy collision will actually take place (and it is my understanding that on 21 Oct there will only be a ceremonial event which is not related to the timeline of the experiment - but I might be wrong). Unless somebody can point to a reliable source for the expected date of the first collisions I would drop this subsection. Note also that we should differentiate between "first collisions" (which might also happen at low energy) and "first high-energy collisions" i.e. the collisions with 5 TeV per beam. Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

as per WP:V that's the best we have to go on at the moment, but on an unverifiable note look to the not to distant future. What ever we put to cover the interest in the first collision has to be reliably sourced. Cheers Khukri 18:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
no, the best we have is this: http://lhc-commissioning.web.cern.ch/lhc-commissioning/ stating that the first high-energy collisions are expected to
occur about 6-8 weeks after the start on September 10. Note that there is no connection with the ceremony on Oct 21 (and in my opinion there is no need to raise mass hysteria about a specific date: the collisions will happen when the accelerator is ready). I would change the timeline section (and the lead) quoting the 6-8 weeks estimate from CERN. I would also remove the "september" and "october" titles. Finally, we must specify that the first high-energy collisions will be at 10 TeV and that the energy will be upgraded to the planned 14 TeV only after the winter shutdown. Ptrslv72 (talk) 18:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Please would you expand upon "train the magnets up to full current". Kittybrewster 19:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
good question, I lifted the sentence from the CERN website. I presume it means that the dipole magnets which increase the beam energy from 450 GeV to 5 (or 7) TeV have to be fine-tuned in order to work at the full design energy. But I do agree that it sounds too technical. What about <... will be
used to fine-tune the magnets, so that...> Ptrslv72 (talk) 20:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
That also seems to me unclear. Kittybrewster 20:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
here is a layman explanation of what "magnet training" is: http://www.fnal.gov/pub/ferminews/ferminews01-06-29/p4.html However I don't think that it would be appropriate to elaborate on that in the Timeline section. If you find a satisfying alternative to "fine-tune" to better describe the process please go ahead and make the change. Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 20:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
What about reverting to "train the magnets" with a citation to the fermilab article? Ptrslv72 (talk) 20:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I like that. I am still thinking about how to phrase it better myself. My problem is that I don't understand it well enough. Maybe I will ask an engineer chum. Kittybrewster 21:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if it's notable or not for inclusion, but when the LEP was started up it took 12 hours to do the first circuit and yet LHC both directions were done in under 6 hours. Khukri 22:57, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

## Webcam view live

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

though you might want to add this --PXK T /C 00:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Seen that. Enjoyed it. But no. Kittybrewster 02:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

## n:Talk:God machine started successfully; apocalyptic theories debunked

Someone over on Wikinews has started a pretty dreadful article on the LHC switch-on. I think they've collected every boogeyman bit that the gutter press have dreamt up and sensationalised.

I would really appreciate if someone who has been involved in development of this WP article could have a go. Apart from turning the article into something you'd expect to see in the BBC's Science and Technology section and fixing or suggesting a more reasoned title, there is the issue of making it current by covering details since switch-on, eg which basic experiments/setup procedures have been run through. Possibly the trickiest thing for a Wikipedian will be the active voice, newsy style required for Wikinews; but everyone reads news and has some idea what it should look like.

Geeky Physicist help always appreciated at Wikinews. --Brian McNeil /talk 07:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Tried to help, but some don't seem to be interested in listening to other opinions. All the best. Khukri 20:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

## Safety of the LHC - again???

One editor keeps modifying the Safety section, claiming that the section is very small and needs expanding. That section in its present form is the result of intense discussions on the talk page, which the editor apparently chooses to ignore. In short, the present size of the section is proportional to the relevance of the matter. Moreover, all the arguments put forward by the editor are widely discussed in the dedicated page on the Safety of the LHC, which is linked at the beginning of the section. Duplication here is not necessary. Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:01, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I can see that it is widely discussed on another page but as it has been covered so much on the news a small paragraph on the main article seems appropriate. Failing to do this gives the impression it is being censored. Also edits backed up by citing reliable sources do not need to be discussed on the talk page! You do not have to ask permission on the talk page before making an edit. However deleting cited edits can be seen as vandalism! Harris578 (talk) 17:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Of course you don't have to ask permission but - especially in much-debated topics - it does not hurt to discuss your changes before implementing them. Normally I would have posted a message on the talk page myself before removing your edit, but that particular section has been subject of so much discussion that I thought it was not necessary (I may have overreacted, in which case I apologize). Anyway, it does not seem to me that your latest edit gives much relevant information, apart for the names of the two guys (besides, the punctuation should be corrected). I am in favor of reverting to the original sentence, but let's wait and see what other contributors think. Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Quote In short, the present size of the section is proportional to the relevance of the matter. The subject is very relevant as it has been on the news 24/7. Thus, whether it could or could not happen has nothing to do with it. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and one would expect some mention of a notable subject on the articles main page! Harris578 (talk) 17:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
The subject is indeed mentioned and the reader is immediately redirected to a page where all the information can be found. Sorry I have to go now let's wait and see what other contributors think. Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes I have to go as well. I have placed a POV on the article. Anyway talk soon. Harris578 (talk) 17:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
The safety concern has it's own article. Verbal chat 17:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
maybe the article is POV, maybe not, but you cant argue POV because of the size of any section I guess, Safety issues in the case of the LHC would be very much like a "Criticism" section (which has its own policy for this wiki WP:CRITICISM), if so this safety issues section should not be a whole treaty nor very long. Furthermore it has now its own article, thats great I think! --Andersmusician VOTE 21:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPOV states that "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." Rossler and Wagner (2 people) expouse minority views, and the fact that these views have drawn significant media coverage does not change that fact. These views are described in the safety article, where they are given due weight, i.e. they are properly contextualized and contrasted with mainstream and opposing views. In fact, if these views had not drawn any reliable media coverage, then they would not even belong in the safety article in accordance with WP:NOTABILITY. I will revert to the previous discussed and agreed upon version. --Phenylalanine (talk) 00:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not trying to represent a dispute that is held by the small minority. I am simply saying and expanding on the fact that there is a dispute! They are two different things. Were I to talk about the possibility of a doomsday scenario, fair enough! But I just think that the article has gone from one extreme to the other. I think we should elaborate on the nature of the dispute. whilst still saying the general consensus is that the experiments are safe. If you all go back and look at my edits you can see that I have not removed that or tried to say that the world will end! Harris578 (talk) 08:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't really understand why people want to expand our coverage of this topic. We have a huge section on this topic—so large, in fact, that it's been split off into its own page. Under the old subarticle naming system it would have been at Large Hadron Collider/Safety. The current policy is to give all articles top-level names, but that doesn't change the fact that it's clearly a subarticle. We shouldn't be duplicating that material here. All that should be here is a {{main|...}} link to the subarticle and perhaps a mention in the lede. That isn't insufficient coverage, it reflects just how extensive our coverage is. -- BenRG (talk) 11:29, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I see that the safety sentence has been expanded again by the editor Thomasedavis: "A primary concern, the appearance of micro black holes, has been dismissed due to the improbability of their production and, even if produced, their infinitesimal size and instantaneous decay." While the new sentence sounds correct, I'll try to explain why I think that this is a bad idea, god forbid that I touch the page and I am accused of vandalism again ;-)

It is true that, in every reasonable extra-dimensional model, if mBH are produced at the LHC they would be small and decay instantaneously. This should be enough to dismiss the concern. However, what do you do when somebody comes and says "yeah, but in my own pet model I throw away a few well-established physical principles and as a result I find that the mBH are stable"? One way out would of course be to debunk these pet models one-by-one, but it's Sisyphus' labor (a bit like editing Wikipedia ;-) The alternative, followed in Mangano-Giddings paper and in the LSAG report, is to say: "OK, let's assume for the sake of the argument that the mBH are stable. Is there a risk that they will destroy the earth?" And the answer is no. The way I understand their line of reasoning is that, if hypothetical mBH produced at the LHC were able to destroy the earth, the same mBH would have already been produced by cosmic-ray collisions, and they would have already been captured - if not by the earth - by denser objects such as neutron stars, leading to their destruction. The fact that we still see neutron stars means that stable mBH, if they exist at all, are not dangerous for the earth (e.g. because their rate of accretion is too slow).

The present formulation of the safety sentence does not mention the fact that the LSAG report rules out even the risk from stable black holes, and leaves the door open for the next guy to come and add "yes but Roessler says that the mBH are stable! teach the controversy!". On the other hand, most editors agree that - since we have a full article devoted to the safety issue - it is not appropriate to elaborate here on the LSAG report. In summary, I would revert to the original sentence. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 12:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hiya. Looking at the edit. If you were to leave that edit as it is A primary concern, the appearance of micro black holes, has been dismissed due to the improbability of their production and, even if produced, their infinitesimal size and instantaneous decay. [21][22][23] It has cited 3 sources and it would be hard for anyone to find any sources to prove otherwise. Fair enough you don't want any silly talk of a doomsday scenario but that statment more or less stops it in its tracks. So it keeps you happy! and it slightly expands on the one little sentence that was there and would keep me happy. Anyway I know that I am on the minority side with this and will not persist in my argument. All the best. Harris578 (talk) 17:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, my point is that the present sentence is incomplete, because the LSAG report (ref.[23]) proves that there would indeed be no risk even if the mBH were stable (i.e. in the absence of "instantaneous decay"). This is what the Mangano-Giddings paper is all about. But in order to make the statement more complete we should enter a lot of detail, duplicating the discussion already given in the Safety article. This is why I proposed to revert to the old version, which basically says: "there have been safety concerns, they have been dismissed by the scientific community, read the dedicated article if you want to learn more". But I'll leave the choice to the other editors (especially Thomasedavis himself). Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 23:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest this alternative paragraph for the "safety of particle collisions" section:
--Phenylalanine (talk) 22:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Cool for me. Let's see how long it withstands the doomsayers' attacks... ;-) Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 10:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

## Hackers Targeted LHC

I heard a few computer hackers managed to hack into the LHC's computers. Is it worth a citation? Sources: http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2008/09/13/cerns-lhc-is-hackable/ http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/greek-hackers-attacked-cern-computer-system-uk-press/id_31754/catid_68 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.111.199.90 (talk) 03:39, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

maybe also telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/earth/2008/09/12/scicern212.xml and endtrial http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/12/hackers-hit-lhc-computer-system-deemed-scary-experience/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.43.61.34 (talk) 07:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
yeah i came here expecting to see a portion of the article devoted to this incident only to find out that it isn't mentioned anywhere on the article at all. it's notable enough that adult swim has been making light of it in their bumpers.99.153.29.112 (talk) 10:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

## Section on "Practical uses"

Bugnot has added a section entitled "Practical uses", in which he claims that the results of the LHC could be used for cancer treatment, nuclear waste refusal, reducing global warming and (surprise surprise) time travel. For the first three issues he cites three times a single article from the times, and for the last he cites another british newspaper. Concerning the first three issues, just read the times article beyond the (misleading) title. It says clearly that the potential advances in cancer treatment etc. will not come from the results of the LHC (how could they?), but rather from other experimental programmes at CERN. This is also the literal meaning of the quote from Paul Collier, if you just bother to read it. For what concern time travel, it is fringe physics and has already been discussed at length on the talk page. In summary, this whole section has no place in the article. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Also the new section on the history of CERN is not relevant in this context and should be removed. Ptrslv72 (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, cancer treatments can be created in a particle accelerator. The never-finished SSC in the US is now used to create radioisotopes used in cancer therapies, I'm not sure precisely how it's done but from what I read it's something that can be done in all particle colliders hypotheticlly. However, the LHC, once it goes live will not be used for that purpose, as are any "live" colliders, since the collision experiments are prone to irradiating the device making it unsafe for medical use. Ah, heres an article on it: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=what-happens-to-particle-accelerators --85.62.18.8 (talk) 10:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The article you refer to says indeed that the magnets built for the SSC are now being used to produce radioisotopes. This is very different from saying that the physics results of the LHC can help cure cancer, which is what the editor who proposed the "Practical uses" section was claiming. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 13:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the section on practical uses for the reasons stated above. I would also ask for the opinion of other contributors on the section on the history of CERN. Is it relevant in this context? And is it good Wikipedia practice to lift entire sections almost verbatim from other sources? I suspect that this section should go too. Ptrslv72 (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed it (before noticing your comment). It appeared to be a copyright violation, for one thing. -- BenRG (talk) 16:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
(By the way, it's fine to copy text wholesale into Wikipedia as long as it's not a copyright violation. The first versions of a lot of articles were copied from sources like the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica and FOLDOC. But I can't see anything on the CERN site implying that their text is available under a GFDL-compatible license.) -- BenRG (talk) 21:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The last remaining change of Bugnot's wave is in the section on the hacker attack of September 10. If I remember correctly somebody had already added something similar, but it was subsequently moved to the safety page (under "other events"). It seems to me that the present formulation gives undue relevance to what is after all a minor event. I mean, it gives to this story the same relevance as to the massive "Grid" and "LHC@Home" projects. Since the event is already mentioned elsewhere and it does not add much information about the LHC itself I would revert the paragraph to its original form. Comments anyone? Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

In the absence of questions or comments, I implemented the change above. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

## Suggestion for new article:

This is just a bare-bones suggestion, and it could be completely rubbish, but I have 10 minutes spare at work and I thought I'd throw it out there to see what others think. Strikes me that there is a lot of information that could be included somewhere regarding the media's reaction to the LHC (for example the suicide relating to the Indian media), but that this is information that general consensus suggests shouldn't be in the Large Hadron Collider article, and should only be touched upon in the Safety of the Large Hadron Collider article. What about an article named Reaction of the Media to the Large Hadron Collider? It could read something along the lines of "Although sources W, X, Y and Z make it clear there are no safety problems with the LHC, person A suggested otherwise. The media in countries B, C, D and E grabbed onto this, sensationalised it, and this all led to the suicide of a girl". This could then erradicate the information from the two current articles, whilst giving it somewhere sensible to go. Thoughts? TalkIslander 16:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking that, too. I didn't suggest it because it's not an article I would read, write or maintain. 16:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
On a personal level, though I am sickened to the core that poor science compounded by headline grabbing, and the medias need to exaggerate and play on every doomsday scenario seems to have led to this young girl taking her life, I'm not sure this can be demonstrated well within Wikipedia. To create an article like that, we would be drawing conclusions, or basically just listing news outlets that will be saying the very same thing as the article. I think you almost covered it there in one sentence, which would make a very short article. I am not for or against an article being created, just think that it couldn't be written in a neutral tone, without either casting blame on the media or scaremongerers. Khukri 17:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Personally i wonder if this girls suicide should be mentioned at all. I mean, do we have to cover every idiot person that commits suicide because of a certain event? There are cases where a mention of suicide is appropriate. For example a case where a girls bully related suicide leads to debate about criminal laws for bullying online. Or the case where a girl's suicide about a soccer match actively contributes to a war between two nations (No, im not making this up). At the same time the Grand Theft Auto articles have one line mentions about kids who killed and robbed people because they were imitating GTA. In those cases more people were involved, with their actions having an effect upon general welfare.
But in this case, whats special about this occurrence? Sure, it received news coverage, but is there any notability other then that it has been in the news? Once the fuss about this all dies down, is this really worth including into an article about the LHC? Or even about the safety of the LHC? To me, it seems completely unrelated. Just think about the line "A girl committed suicide because of the LHC". Now chance the words "The LHC" for "her fear earth might be absorbed into a black hole". Exactly the same situation, but would that be included into the black hole article? At the same rate i could jump of a building leaving a note that i did it because i'm allergic to components in the new recipe of my favorite diet coke. Heaven forbid that that may ever be included in Wikipedia on the cokes article.
As for a separate article on this: There is no way it could comply to WP:ONEVENT or WP:NPOV. But i wholehearted agree this line doesn't belong into either article. Maybe we better get rid of it entirely? Excirial (Talk,Contribs) 19:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
WP:ONEVENT wouldn't be relevant, as this article wouldn't be about the girl, but about all the media hype surrounding the LHC. WP:NPOV - yes, that'd definitely be hard to get right, but I doubt impossible... TalkIslander 19:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Obviously I don't know what part of the world all you lot are typing from but in the UK the news coverage was light hearted and Tongue-in-cheek. I cant imagine anyone here getting overly worried about the world ending. I enjoyed listening to Radio 4s "Big Bang Day" last Wednesday which was quite educational with its sections on Particle physics and quantum mechanics. Anyway, one point I think we are all missing here is that with out this black hole news coverage, 99% of the British population would have been oblivious to the turning on of the LHC as it probably would have received no news coverage at all! So wasn't it a good thing as well? How many school boys want to be scientists now compared to last week? Harris578 (talk) 20:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Probably very few, sadly. And don't school girls get to be scientists too? Regardless, this shows well why I think a separate article might work - mention how the LHC switch-on was portrayed in the UK (where, incidently, I am), and compare/contrast to other countries, including China. TalkIslander 20:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I think that one day if they work hard enough, we will get female scientists. ;) Harris578 (talk) 20:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
So the article would be about "The effects of the LHC", or possibly "Perception of the LHC in different parts of the world"? Having a look at all the guidelines around, i would say that would be a incredibly tough article to write ;). Apart from the NPOV issues, how is the article going to be sourced? I haven't seen any article discussing world wide perceptions. While the article could be sourced with newspapers from all around the world, the content of those can generally be summed up as: What is the LHC, what are the dangers and perhaps a section why they don't apply. Third, what would make the article notable? If half the world would be in mass hysteria such as we had with the Y2K bug it would be easy, but for now our dear multi billion tube shaped magnet leaves most people's interest freezing, if they know about it in the first place. Excirial (Talk,Contribs) 20:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
"Having a look at all the guidelines around, i would say that would be a incredibly tough article to write ;)." - oh I agree completely, that's why I'm not offering to write it ;P. Just throwing the idea out there - difficult, yes, but I still say it's feasible. If no one agrees with me, then no one will write it, and this idea will dig it's own grave. TalkIslander 20:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

(Semi-related) Outdent As for effect of the media on this subject, have a look at the pages traffic analysis. In june this page got an average of 12k pageviews a day with a top of 32k. A month later we have about the same figures, but the average number of pageviews is actually lower. I expect that the first media releases came in august, as there is a sudden spike to 70k views, about 6x more then average. As for the real power at the media, have a look at September. This does say something about the influence media coverage can have on peoples awareness of a subject. I wonder what the effect on the LHC would have been if the media would have been fully biased towards the danger camp. I wonder if it could have shifted public opinion so far into negatives that it could have delayed or canceled the project. A well, enough speculations about this from me. Excirial (Talk,Contribs) 21:02, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

## 900 GeV energy collisions

Perhaps it should be noted that the first 900 GeV particle collisions at the LHC will still be below the Tevatron's 2 TeV collisions. --Phenylalanine (talk) 01:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

## Photos

Photos a'plenty at google .gov. {{PD-USGov}} may apply to .gov images, so get to up loadin', ya'all! -- Suntag (talk) 00:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Start with the Extra large Images since they usually are of the best quality. -- Suntag (talk) 01:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

## Proposed New Name section

While the information in this section is true, and I've added a reference to a newspaper article detailing it, I've added the Content template to the section since I'm unconvinced that a competition run by a group unrelated to the LHC is really relevant in this article. Chronitis (talk) 00:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Then it should be deleted. (Or put in popular culture section...) At least they don't call it Black Mesa :pThe name Halo is equally badass. SYSS Mouse (talk) 04:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

### Nickname

Large Hadron Collider Renamed a) Is this relevant, at least superficially? b) Does anyone have a secondary source for this? I question Gamernode as a valid primary source. -EarthRise33 (talk) 03:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Royal Society of Chemistry in London (not LHC-affiliated scientists) held a contest to come up with a new name, and picked "Halo" as the winner. The LHC wasn't actually renamed. It was in the article but I deleted it because it seemed like random trivia more than anything else. I won't object if a regular editor thinks it's worth putting back in (presumably in the "popular culture" section). -- BenRG (talk) 10:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Agree, pending some "official" status for the name. It does not seem to me to be particularly apt in any case. Wwheaton (talk)

14:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

## LHC Shut down?

Been noticing in recent news that the accelerator has been shut down because of a problem with the super cooled magnets becoming less cool, perhaps it should be mentioned in the introduction that the LHC is currently non-operational.

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/7813380) (http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=9681340) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.23.172 (talk) 22:45, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

It's currently mentioned at the end of the second paragraph of the intro. -- BenRG (talk) 23:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's an AP story about it. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

We need to be careful with this - the media appear to be hyping this up quite a bit: although it's definitely a setback to the project, and should probably be mentioned in the article, it's hardly unexpected. With such a massively complex machine, it's to be expected that things will go wrong. TalkIslander 19:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Expected, yes. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi everybody. About the length of the shutdown, the only reliable source is currently the CERN press release stating that it will take at least two months before the LHC is up again. It is true however that this would bring us to the end of November, when the winter shutdown is planned anyway. BTW, the present formulation in the lead, Owing to the season... sounds a bit weird to me, as if the LHC could not work because of bad weather ;-) If we really want to mention this possibility, it would be better to replace the sentence with Owing to the planned winter shutdown... Ptrslv72 (talk) 21:27, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I hardly think readers would take a seasonal shutdown to mean "the LHC could not work because of bad weather." Please keep in mind, the AP source is clear that the LHC may not be operational again until spring, owing to the seasonal shutdown. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, your original sentence was Owing to the season, the collider may not be..., no shutdown mentioned. I just thought that it sounded funny. I still think that my proposal planned winter shutdown conveys more information than the present version, but it's not something worth arguing for. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 00:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
CERN shuts down every year for two weeks over Christmas, only minimum operations staff with very little physics being carried out. Khukri 21:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The cited AP source says ...the equipment may not be running again before the planned shutdown of the equipment for the winter to reduce electricity costs. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
While it is true that CERN itself only shuts down two weeks around Christmas, the LHC operations were planned to be halted from end of November to spring 2009 (see e.g. here). Note btw that the shutdown is commonly referred to as winter shutdown not seasonal shutdown. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 00:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Only to let editors know, I wrote the word seasonal to pull the reader quickly towards thinking of the shutdown as planned, unremarkable, cyclical (which indeed it is). Gwen Gale (talk) 06:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
After having had a moment to read and ponder this thread, I've called it the already planned winter shutdown. Cheers, Gwen Gale (talk) 08:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Temperature ambiguity? The reference I gave (BBC) from the BBC said by 100 degrees, not to 100 degrees. Now I have been forwarded a blog report claiming the temerature rose "to 100 C", which is obviously quite different. I assumed the degrees could not be Fahrenheit for a European scientific context, and put "100 kelvins" into the article (since K & C degrees are the same size), but this now appears to be in doubt. I do not have time to check this further at the moment; can someone else look into it? The CERN press release (CERN PR) does not give the 100 degree figure at all, so it must have come from some other source. It seems to me 100 C could have the potential to damage materials in the cryogenic system, so it might be important. Thanks --- Wwheaton (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The BBC report is unequivocal that the temperature increase was "as much as" 100 degrees; they certainly mean Celsius/Kelvin. They're more reliable than any blog report, I should think. -- SCZenz (talk) 22:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/Cooldown_status.htm Bottom left graph, Sector 3-4. Looks like 100 Kelvin to me. CyberDragon (talk) 05:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, nice link; that settles it, 100 K it is. Wwheaton (talk) 08:16, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this is relevant towards the openness and trustworthiness of CERN people.

The world's largest particle collider malfunctioned within hours of its launch to great fanfare, but its operator didn't report the problem for a week.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jb-KYaSJaMqYK4MtY2C2FmcmOl2QD939CCSG0 What else would they hide? I think that this incident should be mentioned in the main article under "accidents and delays", together with the other incident which caused the LHC to be closed down for two months.--LF1975 (talk) 12:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

This is mistaken. I invite you to review the history of the article edits, which shows that our initial report here (later removed due to lack of a source) went in at 14:08 on 19 September. That original post reported the fault occurred at 11:06 on the same day, barely 2 hours earlier. My post with the (BBC reference) went in at 04:09 the following day. There was a (much less serious) transformer fault a day or so earlier, which had been reported earlier, but maybe some confusion in the media between the two. But also, note the fascinating and detailed (CERN Hardware Commissioning pages) which give the story practically in real time. These are obviously intended for internal use, but there they are, unprotected for public viewing, hardly the mark of a super-secret outfit trying to cover its nefarious doings. (I sincerely hope it stays that way, despite the problems such openness brings upon any controversial organization.) I hope also that we here will be careful not to cast aspersions on other people's good faith (not just wiki editors, but also CERN, and LHC critics) without very good cause. We are all paranoid enough without such crazy-making charges flying around. Cheers Wwheaton (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I did mention the tranformer failure in an edit summary last week and it was common knowledge then, see here Khukri 22:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
To use that for a section on "openness and trustworthiness" would violate Wikipedia's policy on original research. -- SCZenz (talk) 13:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Also to state an operator managed to hide from his bosses that a transformer had blown and that a 27km particle accelerator didn't happen to be running is laughable. People tend to notice when something as innocuous as the world largest particle accelerator has broken down! It was in the news last week, and it didn't break down within hours of the startup. There are going to be lots of stops to the LHC over the next couple of years due to breakdowns, and problems, this is normal. The two month shutdown is a minor problem that on a normal accelerator would take a day or so to repair, the reason it is so long is to heat up and cool the system back down again. Watch this space there's going to be lots of brakdowns, and just because CERN doesn't post you an e-mail about it doesn't mean they are hiding. Khukri 13:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I think "its operator" in the AP report meant "CERN." Apparently the Director General is supposed to hold a press conference every time there's a routine equipment failure. -- SCZenz (talk) 17:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

## Section on Construction Accidents and delays

Hi, various editors keep adding information on the magnet quench in the section on Construction Accidents and Delays, apparently without realizing that the same information is already provided in the Test Timeline section. We should reorder and perhaps rename those two sections to avoid confusion. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 09:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

This is not mentioned in the article and it should.--LF1975 (talk) 12:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Why? it is a minor problem with very little relevance (especially when compared with the magnet accident). We don't have to report every time the LHC operations are halted for a couple of days. Besides, it is old news - you can find it in the times article, ref.[17].

My problem with this section is that we report here delays and accidents that happened in the past during the construction of the LHC, while we report in the Test Timeline section major events related to the operation of the LHC (such as the magnet quench). I find it understandable that even some good-faith editors get confused by the naming and want to mention the magnet quench among the "construction accidents". Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I did so, too. It definitely belongs in the Delays section - that's where I first looked, and was surprised not to find it. Slight duplication of info is of lesser concern than getting the info quickly from the logical place... --Janke | Talk 19:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

## CERN Press Release: Restart in 2009

Now it's official, there will be no beam before the winter shutdown. It's time to reorganize/rationalize the "Test Timeline" and "Construction Accidents and Delay" sections... Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

## How are the protons accelerated?

I think an article about a particle accelerator should explain how the particles are actually accelerated, but ours doesn't. The article on particle accelerators is very vague on the topic, and the best I could find is a red link to microvave cavity in the synchotron article. It appears that Klystrons are also somehow involved. AxelBoldt (talk) 02:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Our job on this article is not to describe how a particle accelerator works - that's for the particle accelerator article. It's kinda like how you wouldn't expect an article on fairy lights to explain how light bulbs work. TalkIslander 16:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Different accelerators work differently, so it's our job in this particular article to explain how this particular accelerator works. If this accelerator belongs to a class of machines that all work alike, then the article needs to point the reader to the general information about that class and then give the information that is specific to this one machine. AxelBoldt (talk) 20:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
FYI, I think basically the accelerator sections are bits of linear accelerator, sandwiched in between the bending and focusing magnets. These large separated-function accelerators simplify their problems by having disjoint sections that are specialized to bending, focusing, "cooling", accelerating, beam monitoring, experimental instrument etc, parts, strung together like beads on a wire. The radio-frequency (RF) power to the accelerating sections has to be carefully synchronized with the passes of the particle bunches through the accelerating sections, so the particles gain energy instead of losing it. It might not be a bad idea to have a one or two sentence description of the distinct kinds of function and the hardware that accomplishes it (especially the layout, structure, and details unique to the LHC), but we need to maintain balance, and should use wikilinks to the particle accelerator and other articles to avoid a mess of redundant (& hard to maintain consistently) information. Wwheaton (talk) 20:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, it would not cost an arm just to mention in one short sentence which type of RF cavities are used for this accelerator. Alain Michaud (talk) 22:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

## Adding a popular culture reference

Could an established registered user please add the novel Flashforward by Robert J. Sawyer as a reference in popular culture? The link to the Wikipedia page of this novel is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashforward_(novel) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.138.216 (talk) 18:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It was in there but I deleted it because the novel doesn't seem to involve the LHC in anything but name. It appears Sawyer just took terms like "LHC" and "Higgs boson" that had been in the news and used them as technobabble in his completely unrelated story. But, as always, I won't object if a regular editor thinks it's worth putting back in. -- BenRG (talk) 11:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

## Bending two opposite beams

Since two beams are circling in opposite directions, how do the bending magnets work? I would assume that a magnet that bends one beam in the proper direction will bend the other beam in the wrong direction, based on the right-hand-rule of the Lorentz force. Or does each beam get its own bending magnets that operate in opposite polarity? AxelBoldt (talk) 20:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

There are two separate beam pipes, with opposite magnetic fields around them, to bend each beam in the appropriate direction. Both directions share the same cooling system, though, which is why you only see one line of magnets in pictures of the tunnels. -- SCZenz (talk) 21:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks SCZenz —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinJohn (talkcontribs) 15:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

## History

Doesn't the "Design" paragraph miss some historical notes? When was it decided to build the LHC? How long did it take to design it, and then to built its components? I will look for some references. Kromsson (talk) 08:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

## LHC needs semi-protection

Attacks have started instantly, its very popular, see the stats [1]Orion11M87 (talk) 22:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The vandalism isn't too bad so far. You can make a report on WP:RFPP if it gets worse. J.delanoygabsadds 22:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The current levels of vandalism don't warrent protection of any sort. If it gets worse and I notice, I'll protect it. If I don't notice, make a request at WP:RFPP, or give me a shout on my talk page. TalkIslander 22:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for relaying my message, thats exactly what I meant to say. Just to be sure we are ready in any case if the tsunami hits back... Cheers! :) — Orion11M87 (talk) 23:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

## The LHC was built by Seymore Butts European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN),

Looks like we have a vandal at 216.188.192.218

"Seymore Butts"??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.64.16.58 (talk) 18:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

"Why are there apparent violations of the symmetry between matter and antimatter? because yo mama said so. See also CP-violation." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.64.16.58 (talk) 18:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks like this vandalism was removed one minute before your message was saved here [2]. --Kralizec! (talk) 18:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Both instances have been reverted. Thanks for reporting it. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 13:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

## Technical language in the lead

Hi, I am having a discussion with another editor on whether due to the arc-magnet quench incident is too technical for the lead or not. In my understanding the lead is supposed to be accessible to every reader and the details should be given in the main body of the article. Nobody knows what a magnet quench is unless he/she is a physicist or has already read some technical description of the topic. Besides, the present formulation (THE incident) sounds as if it was well known to everybody that there has been an incident. I also don't think it is necessary to specify that the incident involved the arc-magnets as opposed to other kinds of magnets (btw, in the CERN press release it is not mentioned which magnets had the faulty wiring: perhaps someone can provide a reference for that?). In summary, I would change to a more generic sentence, like due to an incident involving the superconducting magnets or something to that effect. Does any of the other usual contributors have an opinion about this? Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that both "arc-magnet" and "quench" are too technical for the lead; the former is LHC jargon really. I would wikilink "quench" to Magnet_quench (as is already done) in the section of the article where the incident is described, and even in the body of the article replace "arc-magnet" with "bending-magnet", which has a slight hope of being intelligible to anyone who has any knowledge at all of particle accelerators.
Firstly, Ptrslv72, I agree with you on "of the sparticles predicted by supersymmetry." I had different thoughts on that so I added a comma, but however, yours makes a much better sense.
Secondly. The "arc-magnet quench incident" is simply implied as the name of the event(incident) rather than an explanation, instead of the previously written "a failure". While the arc-magnet is a LHC specific, it simply uses the meaning of arc. So "arc-magnets" is a LHC name implied from arc, while "bending-magnets" is a general descriptive name. For now, I am adding the link to Large Hadron Collider#Construction accidents and delays. So it is up to everyone to make a decision on whether to have the name of the event or a description.
Thirdly, the explanation in Construction accidents and delays should be a little more(or better) detailed. Not to be used but as a summery, due to the sector 3-4 dipole arc-magnet quench, the Bus bar heated and leaked 1 ton of cryo-helium(that is liquid He) in the LHC tunnel. (Note: since the investigation is not done yet, the Bus bar or the location-within is not confirmed, and the whole problem is suspected to be from a problematic weld.)Orion11M87 (talk) 06:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Kudos to Orion for looking for a compromise, even if he did not accept any of my suggestions on the sentence due to THE ARC-magnet QUENCH incident ;-) I would still prefer due to AN incident involving the bending magnets, for the three reasons that were stated above, but it's not something worth starting an editing war about. I am however still slightly puzzled by the use of arc-magnet: can you provide references where the LHC magnets are called that way? (possibly in some outreach page, not some over-technical internal document). Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 09:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Ptrslv72! As the to the technicality, as I said before: "So it is up to everyone to make a decision on whether to have the name of the event or a description." So if you think a description should be used instead of the problem name, you can change it. I really don't have a perspective on how should it be, all I wrote was the name of problem, not a description which explains. As to arc-magnets, it can be seen with the yellow key at http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/Cooldown_status.htm. — Orion11M87 (talk) 22:06, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Heh heh your link seems to prove my (and Wwheaton's) point that arc-magnet is LHC jargon. That's why I asked for some outreach reference as opposed to super-technical internal document... BTW, do you know for sure that the accident involved the arc magnets and not the inner triplets or the LSS magnets (whatever they are)? Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 23:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
It did involve the bending magnets, as can be seen from Cooldown status page - sector 3-4. (The inner triplets are marked as green squares, but there are none in sector 3-4. The fault seemed to have occurred roughly in the middle of the long blue line at the left, at least as the plot stands tonight.) I think I am going to change the lead to suppress the jargon, there's no real need for it. Incidentally one of the other LHC pages I saw last night says they cannot resume normal operation until 1 May. Are these internal pages suitable for use as sources? They are not stable, of course, and the LHC project might prefer not to attract casual public viewing. Yet I am glad they are open for those interested in the guts of the machine. Wwheaton (talk) 04:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

## "signs of new physics"

In the "Detectors" section it says, "Atlas will be used to look for signs of new physics..." That sounds to me like it will be trying to detect physicists scratching their heads. Erikmartin (talk) 01:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

"new physics" is commonly used in particle physics with the meaning of "physics beyond the Standard Model". But if you find that jargon too cryptic you can propose an alternative. Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I think you just proposed a reasonable alternative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.36.41 (talkcontribs)

## Mass of He lost in quench

I see User:Fanman904 has reverted User:Ptrslv72's change of the He mass lost into the tunnel from 1 ton (in the original BBC report) to 6 tons. I do not at once see the figure 6 tons in the CERN press release on the subject of 16 October. Ptrslv72, could you point out where that 6 ton number comes from? It does sound more plausible to me, as something like half the 3-4 sector seems to have come up to 100K, way above the critical point (~ 5 K) of He, so about 1/16 of the ring seems to have been affected, with the total mass of LHe is nearly 100 tons. Thus it is not clear which figure is correct. Thanks -- Wwheaton (talk) 03:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Check this link, it's the in depth technical report that is linked from the page you list.

[3] About halfway down page 3.

About 2 t of helium, corresponding to the volume contained in the magnet cold mass of subsectors 19-21, 23-25 and 27-29, were rapidly discharged and eventually released to the tunnel, producing a cloud which triggered the oxygen deficiency hazard detectors installed on the tunnel vault and tripped an emergency stop, thus switching off all electrical power and services from sector 3-4. In the subsequent leakage from the open circuits, and before restoration of electrical power enabled to actuate cryogenic valves, another 4 t of helium were lost, though at much lower flow rates. The total loss of inventory thus amounts to about 6 t, out of 15 t initially in the sector.

87.113.24.188 (talk) 08:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I changed the article to cite this report instead of the BBC. I wish Wikipedia didn't treat the BBC as a reliable source for science news, they never seem to get anything right. -- BenRG (talk) 10:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Yeah sorry I did not follow this discussion over the weekend. I thought I had read the 6 tons figure in the CERN press release but it was hidden in the technical report instead. Thanks BenRG for taking care of the issue, all is well that ends well. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 09:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi everybody, it seems to me that the description of the Oct 21 ceremony in the lead is far too detailed (and not so relevant). It should definitely be condensed. I might do it myself after collecting some feedback. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 13:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. We should have a subsection on CERN's September 10 and October 21 publicity efforts, and most of the details should go there. -- SCZenz (talk) 15:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I condensed the lead. If somebody (not me) wants to write the subsection on the publicity efforts, be our guest. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 23:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

how come the introduction states that the LHC speeds up protons to 99.99% the speed of light when the real velocity is about 99.999999% c —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.36.2 (talk) 10:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Good point. ${\displaystyle {\frac {7\;TeV}{m_{p}}}=\gamma =1/{\sqrt {1-{\frac {v^{2}}{c^{2}}}}}}$ so the actual value for v/c is sqrt(1 - (1 / (((7 TeV) / (938 MeV))^2))) = 0.999999991 = 99.9999991%. In other words, exactly what you said. The trouble is, it will seem pedantic to our readers to put in that many nines, so normally we'd like to round -- but rounding gives you the speed of light, which is physically wrong. Any ideas, anyone? -- SCZenz (talk) 11:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I would give the correct number, in physics is better to be pedantic than wrong. Ptrslv72 (talk) 13:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
ok, done. it occurs to me that if people change it back, we should add an html comment explaining the situation -- SCZenz (talk) 13:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed the speed before, but somehow never got the chance to change it.
Yea, it would be the wrong representation of the LHC. At 99.99% the speed of light, it is almost comparable to the speed reached by the Proton Synchrotron. — Orion11M87 (talk) 14:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Meh, get rid of percentages, which are out of their depth here. Convert both speeds (hadrons and photons) to SI units and just list them for comparison. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd much favor either percent or fraction-of-c here, as the important thing is the comparison (to c), and absolute SI units seem much less meaningful in this context. NB 0.999999991 of c corresponds to 2.6981321 m/s less than c--which latter makes me yawn. IHMO. Wwheaton (talk) 07:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
In this case the point is how closely the speed approaches C, therefore IMHO a precise percentage is a good way to do it, with sufficient decimal places to reach a non 9. ϢereSpielChequers 12:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
It is not the phrase that appears in the introduction. The statement "beams of protons or lead ions, each moving at about 99.9999991%" is incorrect. Shall we leave it as in the source? Alexander Mayorov (talk) 00:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
There is indeed at least one place on the CERN web site that says 99.99%c, but that is a slip up and not really correct, except that 99.99% is not so very different from 99.9999991%, in a certain sense. However, if you compute it correctly based on 7 TeV proton energy, you find that 99.9999991% is right, and this same number appears elsewhere in the CERN documentation. Wwheaton (talk) 09:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I think Mayorov's point is that, whereas protons will be moving that fast, lead ions won't. (I'm not sure about the energy they will have, but if they are so fast they'll have over 200 times the energy of protons, i.e. about 1400 TeV.) -- 10:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, the article says they'll have 1150 TeV, so they won't be moving much slower than that. -- 10:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Somewhat slower, though. The LHC will collide lead-208, which has a mass of 207.9766521 atomic mass units, whereas a proton has a mass of 1.00727638 amu. Thus we have v/c = sqrt(1 - (1 / (((1150 TeV) / ((207.9766521 / 1.00727638) * 938 MeV))^2))) = 0.999999986 = 99.9999986%. Interestingly, both the proton and lead velocities round to 99.999999%. Perhaps that's the number we should have -- epsecially because by far the dominant uncertainty here is the energy the LHC achieves! -- SCZenz (talk) 10:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we should quote that figure in the lead (where it applies to both protons and Pb ions), but use at least one non-nine digit in the section which specifically refers to protons. That is, the reverse of what is now in the article. Also, (7.0 ± 0.5) TeV for protons corresponds to 0.999 999 9910(13) c, and I doubt that the uncertainty on the energy is much larger than that. -- 13:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

## A topic on the Higgs bozon, Higgs field, Delta-E field, Ether and the Vacuum.

I would like to open up a topic on discussing energy travel faster than light. I think that light being a fundamental principal about the limit of speed of energy traveling in open space.

Prof Dr. Lijun Wang Chair of Experimental Physics at the Division II of the Max-Planck Research Group at the University of Erlangen with NEC corporation carried out the following research experiment reported on July 20 2000: http://www.lastek.com.au/light.htm

The question i am wondering about is if energy can travel speeds several factors faster then light, then how does it actually do it, what is the intermediary layer in which energy travels ? Such speeds of traveling energy pulses were also observed using scalar longitudinal electromagnetic waves also used in RFID technology.

Observation of scalar longitudinal electrodynamic waves, C. Monstein and J. P. Wesley, Europhysics Letters 59 (4), pp. 514-520, 2002. http://helene.ethz.ch/papers/monstein/7210.pdf

Prof. Konstantin Meyl, 1st Annual RFID Eurasia Conference & Exhibitions 2007, Istanbul, IEEE http://www.konor.org/Proc_RFID_Eurasia.pdf

My observation is, that the key point is in the interaction of the traveling waves with not just matter if you like, but pure energy itself. The less the traveling wave have interaction/interference with objective energies, the faster and further it can travel. I think that this is the key point of the Higgs field too according to a lecture i saw at the University of California, USA. If there were no Higgs field, then one could move its hand without any limit or any objects could move in the ether without any objection. The point i am trying to make is that without an underlying structure of the ether, order would not be possible in 3d space. Matter can not just "pass by" each other, so there must be a field that >relates< all matter and energy and this supposed to be the Higgs field if i am right. An underlying structure of the 3d field upon which all energy lies, the "floor" if you like. If one understands this then you will see that if the Higgs field exists, then our possibilities with energy unfold significantly. One such researcher on the field was also Dr. Nikola Tesla whom experiment with wireless energy transfer.

Apparatus for transmitting electrical energy (large capacity through the ether), Dr. Nikola Tesla , US Patent# 1,119,732, January 18, 1902 http://www.konor.org/ELECTRICAL_ENERGY.pdf

Another interesting publication is by Dr. Ervin Racz from the Central Physics Laboratory of the National Science Institute of Hungary

ECLIM 2002: 27th European Conference on Laser Interaction with Matter, Editor(s): Oleg N. Krokhin, SergeyY.Gus'kov, Yury A. Merkul'ev http://www.rmki.kfki.hu/~racz/public.htm

Zoltan Papp (28/10/2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Konor org (talkcontribs) 18:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

What you have written seems somewhat opaque, but I have not read it carefully. Anyway, it seems somewhat out of our scope here. Propagation of light at faster than the speed of light in vacuum is covered at Faster-than-light. Note, though, that Wikipedia is not a medium for original research. We cover only material that has been published in reliable sources external to the encyclopedia. Wikipedia's talk pages are not for general discussion of subjects, but rather are to be focused on discussion related to improving the articles. We are building an encyclopedia here. We are not a physics chat room.--Srleffler (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Another place you might take this would be to Talk:Special relativity, where a discussion has been on-going about a related issue for three weeks. This is a matter of fundamental physics and thus does not really fit here in an article about a particular research facility, but I believe the consensus among physicists is that the speed limit has little to do with light itself, but rather something to do with the structure of spacetime, the nature of time, and the meaning of causality. Note that the limit appears to be not only the speed of light, but of gravity (gravitons) and massless particles in general. For a long time we thought it applied to neutrinos also, but now we know they have mass. Wwheaton (talk) 21:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

## Keeping [everyone] calm

HEY PEOPLE: how 'bout let's please not express the beam energy in terms of explosives. The stupid people are already all whipped up about this being dangerous. It's why in the early days, NASA specifically requested reporters not to refer to explosive or destructive energy when describing the Mercury/Redstone booster rocket. In the small summary I added to the intro, I talked about the momentum of a freight train. That is something they can visualize. The explosive force of a ton of TNT is not.

And for a similar reason, and at risk of my sounding pedantic, can we not refer to the Higgs Boson as the "God Particle" or the LHC as the "God Machine"? That's a trigger word among the idiocracy, and , uh, God only knows what it will make some of them think. TechnoFaye Kane 23:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

TNT vs a freight train seems like a wash to me. They're both dangerous in an industrial-accident kind of way, not in the dies-irae kind of way that people seem to be worrying about. I think it would be a huge step forward if we could convince people that the LHC was merely as dangerous as an oil refinery.
I agree that we shouldn't use the phrases "God Particle" or "God Machine" in the article, and currently we don't. -- BenRG (talk) 00:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
And I would be pleased to see a similar avoidance of "Big Bang", as the connection is peripheral. Wwheaton (talk) 06:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Freight or not freight, since we are writing about science, shouldn't we use metric units? What are miles doing there??? ;-) Ptrslv72 (talk) 00:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Metric units are required! Big Bang should be mentioned, because LHC is going to create conditions billionth of a second after the Big Bang. Happy editing. — Orion11M87 (talk) 05:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I think that's the kind of dubious comparison that Wwheaton was suggesting we not make. For any given temperature there was a time when the average temperature of the universe was that temperature. Heck, even a sunny day "recreates the conditions" of a few million years after the big bang—that's 99.9% of the way back. These comparisons are mostly just hype and ignore the fact that similar conditions exist in the universe today, just not everywhere as they did back then. And I think the big bang comparisons really do scare people by misleading them into thinking that what's happening at the LHC is new in the course of human history. -- BenRG (talk) 13:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree on the scare of creating a micro Big Bang. But the LHC was built to study the Big Bang; As we learn new physics, we will be able to tell how the super force behaved, and how the quantum inflation happened. — Orion11M87 (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Certainly it is relevant to Big Bang physics, but important as that is, we are really after the most fundamental laws of nature here, how the things work at the deepest level. That will have consequences everywhere, of course. It's not about the Big Bang, is it? I think our article is reasonably balanced, I just want to continue fending off the tabloid attempts to turn the LHC into a circus.  :) Wwheaton (talk) 13:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree Wwheaton. The LHC does have strong connections to the Big Bang, but it can be certainly avoided. So the article is balanced. Cheers. — Orion11M87 (talk) 14:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Stunning display of arrogance there Faye! That kind of talk is not going to help the LHC's case. The main stupid thing you have been promoting is that you are expecting to produce black holes. And the first I knew of it was watching some official CERN video footage: one of your scientists saying 'but we think they will probably evaporate' and then no further explanation, so if anybody deserves the term 'idiocracy' it is you lot.202.154.104.194 (talk) 02:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree that "herd" and "idiocracy" are not the best language to use, though here on the talk pages we need some freedom to express our instincts freely and quickly. So I have re-reverted the removal of the previous comment. We do need to remember that not everyone has the advantage of knowledge and education, and those that do not often do not realize their lack, and it is not their fault in any case. On the other hand we are enjoined to be courteous here to each other, and there is less excuse for violations among ourselves. I think I will suppress "herd" in the subject line, though. Best, Wwheaton (talk) 03:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to BenRG (talk) for fixing the temporal sequence above. I am still a bit confused about how to answer an earlier comment when there have been intervening remarks. If we observe a strict temporal, lower-is-later rule, then the time sequence is unambiguous, but it may be difficult to determine which earlier comment is being addressed. And reading the original remark, one could easily miss a much later answer to it. Any suggestions? Probably Wikipedia has a solution to this one, but I haven't learned it yet. I've tried to use indentation, but that is an imperfect solution. I suppose we could echo the date and editor of the post we are responding to, but that could get pretty cumbersome and probably confusingly tangled too. Wwheaton (talk) 18:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I just restored the "Stunning display of arrogance" post above by 202.154.104.194 (talk), (of which I was a bit critical) because I think we should not mess with people's comments on the talk pages except in extreme cases. I guess (looking at my 15 Oct comment) I had restored it previously. This is a borderline case, just want to preserve the sense of the discussion. Wwheaton (talk) 04:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

It's over a month old Will, I would suggest putting it in the archive now as is, to stop any more modification of it. Cheers Khukri 08:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
That's fine with me -- Bill Wwheaton (talk) 20:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this discussion misses an important point. It's Wikipedia's goal to write a good article that is in line with Wikipedia policies rather than to further our own personal aims, such as

• convince people that the LHC was merely as dangerous as an oil refinery
• not refer to the Higgs Boson as the "God Particle"
• make sure that we don't scare people by misleading them into thinking that what's happening at the LHC is new in the course of human history
• fend off the tabloid attempts to turn the LHC into a circus

As instructed (talk) 18:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

## What is the name of the argument?

Some people thought that the LHC would destroy the world. Now what is the argument called that is basically "Always say that anything that means the end of the world is false, because if you are wrong then it won't matter and if you are right then you don't look like a fool". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.243.53 (talk) 00:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

## What happened to the pic?

Hi, what happened to the pic accompanying this article? Simoncpu (talk) 07:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

## Delayed again

New restart date is late spring 2010. The He tank rupture was bad enough the tunnel level room personnel avoided getting suffocated by just pure luck. The He tanks will need redesign too have 3x as much rupture disks and dump valves to be able to cope with massive faults and electrical wiring will need to be made twice redundant. Tunnel will have to be returned to man-rated conditions for all those work. Restart in late 2009 is not possible, because late autumn and winter period electricity prices are not affordable, the LHC will only run spring to September. It will be 2012 at the earliest when new, solid, valuable science gets produced at LHC. 82.131.210.162 (talk) 14:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

--Closedmouth (talk) 16:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Utter rubbish, there was no helium tank rupture, the helium came from the magnet which was ruptured, read this may help you get some of your information right. It will cost around 45 million swiss (Beeb has 14 millions pounds) to repair, and latest estimates is it will be up n trucking around April/May time. There has been access to the tunnels since very shortly afterwards on the 19th september, no idea what "man rated" is, it's certainly not one of the access states to the LHC. Don't know where you get your ideas about electricity prices from this is patently false, LHC was and is planned to run through up to Christmas shutdowns, as was the LEP before it. And your idea of valuable science is also wrong as data is being gathered all the time from the detectors, just not from collisions. Khukri 22:16, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
--Closedmouth (talk) 04:29, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Our latest reliable sources say late May or early June. -- SCZenz (talk) 15:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually the latest reliable source is this presentation by CERN's Joerg Wenninger (see also this blog), declaring that the beam will not restart before late summer 2009. There might even be no beam at all in 2009 if they decide to upgrade the pressure relief valves in all the magnets. According to the talk (see slide 46) the final decision on the schedule might be taken in February. The slides also contain a lot of (technical) information on what exactly happened on September 19. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:22, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm familiar with that talk. Whatever my personal opinion -- and believe me I have one -- I do not think that an internal talk that is a first-choice reliable source for Wikipedia. However, the talk is now getting wider coverage. I'll leave it to others to decide when it ought to be included. -- SCZenz (talk) 06:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I was not proposing to quote Wenninger's talk in the article, because it is far too technical. On the other hand, I don't see any reason to question the reliability of the information, as it comes directly from somebody in the accelerator group. But the cnet article that you found, with the late summer statement made by Gillis, is definitely Wikipedia material and I think should be included. Ptrslv72 (talk) 09:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Yep, the "late" in "late summer" is relevant since it limits the amount of work that could be done with the beam (running on reduced power) before a possible winter shutdown in late 2009. If the two options are (a) late summer with reduced power, or (b) a more complete overhaul with a new pressure relief system on all sections, taking us to 2010, then they'll obviously prefer to be up and running ASAP ... but if they go for option (a), and things overrun, and we get to the winter shutdown period (taking us to 2010 anyway), then folks might wish they'd gone for the more thorough option (b). I guess the decision depends on the degree of confidence that people want to place on the "late summer" estimate for (a). ErkDemon (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

One editor has changed the expected starting date in the lead from "summer" to "July", quoting an interview of an ATLAS physicist to a swedish newspaper (he/she also updated a section that was still referring to "spring"). In view of the information that I quoted above, which comes directly from a member of the CERN accelerator group, July seems a bit too specific to me (and not really late summer). I would rather revert to "summer". What do the other editors think about it? Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I think "summer," or perhaps "late summer" will do for now. -- SCZenz (talk) 06:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Well, first of all, I'm sorry but I didn't notice the discussion here on the talkpage. The section I first edited said spring 2009 so I figured it was pretty straightforward to update to July. I got July from a radio interview with Kerstin Jon-And (who apparently is the CB Chairperson on the executive board of the ATLAS project [4], hopefully she's not making things up). So it's word for word what she said in the interview. Anyway, late July (as she says (which I probably should have written instead of simply 'July')) is late summerish I think, and that then agrees perfectly with ptrslv72s source that says "Plan A: (...) late summer. Most likely!"
So, while I don't doubt the truthiness of either source I think my source is probably a little more informal and might reflect the actual dates that have been discussed on meetings or something, and the presentation is the more formal and safe "late summer".
Anyway, I don't feel strongly about either version (they are both correct in my opinion), as long as the article doesn't say "spring" I'm happy. (But I also think my source is a perfect high quality one and shouldn't be dismissed simply because it's in Swedish). So, the question is whether we should go with safer "late summer" or more specific (but less safe "late july". :)
Apis (talk) 06:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
(This is my translation of the relevant part of what she said if anyone is curious: "The latest estimate that I have heard is that the machine is going to be cooled down in the beginning of July, and we can hope to get collisions sometime in the end of July.")
Apis (talk) 06:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally I would just say summer, at the moment it's a game of pin the tail on the donkey and there will be lots of speculation, but there won't be a clear idea until february I think at the earliest. Khukri 07:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't really think they are just guessing here, they have come up with a schedule and if things goes as planed they should be up and running at the end of july. They might be done before that or after that of course, but the "pin the tail on the donkey" analogy is flawed.
Apis (talk) 09:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
"...and if things goes as planed..." - very amusing. Hence the fairly accurate pin the tail on the donkey analogy. TalkIslander 09:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if you misunderstood, I didn't mean to imply guessing, but at the moment there are too many variables to take into account, where decisions won't be taken until February at the earliest for us to put specific months in the article. This included, possible xray/testing of all the other connectors, replacement of the broken magnets beam lines, possible dump valve modifications, etc. So far we have the official CERN position, a presentation, which is in itself states a lot of possibles and probables, and reliable 3rd party sources like BBC etc who are relying on the CERN information. I myself have a number of works that rely on these modifications and startup etc, and at the moment everyone here is just waiting to see what the updates are. So I think pin the tail on the donkey is quite correct, trying to pin the start up down to a specific month would be wrong with the evidence and the sources we have at hand. Khukri 10:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I just mean that whenever you make an estimate you could call it "pin the tail on the donkey". But I guess you have more inside knowledge here than I do.
Apis (talk) 23:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I replaced both occurrences of "July" (and even one stray "June") with "summer". I also replaced the reference to the swedish article with the article from CNET that reports on the CERN internal presentation, but I am not against including the swedish article if Apis O-tang insists. In addition, I removed a sentence on the winter shutdown (leftover from the time when the LHC was expected to restart in spring) as well as the sentence on the magnet training to 7 TeV (it is not clear now if the 2009 run will be at 7 TeV/beam). Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

## Funding priorities

Should "David King, the former Chief Scientific Officer for the United Kingdom, has criticised the LHC for taking a higher priority for funds than solving the Earth's major challenges; principally climate change, but also population growth and poverty in Africa.[32]" be in the "Cost" section? Brian Gunderson (talk) 01:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I would say Definitely not, as the question of funding priorities for basic research takes us far afield from the LHC, but requires consideration of the costs and benefits of all funding candidates. Just balancing funding for applied versus basic research is a huge and difficult subject. The cost of the LHC is an important input into such priority decisions (along with the possible benefits, and the likelihoods of their being realized). Since the LHC is largely complete, the calculation should be based on the benefits versus the marginal costs to finish and operate. I think our article here needs to summarize the costs, and describe the expected benefits—which I personally believe are essentially cultural, applications being far beyond our ability to foresee. (As Faraday reportedly said, "Of what use is a baby?" But we all still consider it worthwhile to feed them.) Wwheaton (talk) 03:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I also think that the LHC article is not the right place to discuss the views of one guy on the funding priorities for fundamental research. I removed the sentence on David King, feel free to argue if you want to bring it back. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 10:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
He's not the only one to think so, but there are surprisingly few who agree with that view, especially in the scientific community. I think the subject is interesting enough but a single persons opinion clearly isn't notable enough to warrant inclusion and it only reflect one persons POV. A more nuanced discussion might be in order if there where good sources available.
Apis (talk) 23:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify: the sentence has been there for a while, Brian Gunderson was just expressing his doubts about it. It looks like we all agree that it had to be removed. If anybody wants to propose a nuanced (and sourced) discussion on the costs debate please come forward. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 00:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
It would be very interesting to seriously address funding priorities in general in an article dedicated to that subject, reaching across wider boundaries of the kinds of benefits, not just applied/basic, but utilitarian/cultural/humanistic, etc, etc. The trouble is nobody knows how to do that, to compare apples and oranges, to reduce such disparate values to some common currency. We all have instincts, gut feelings, about such matters, but until we really have deeper insight, I cannot see how such an article could be written that was not just a collection of people's feelings and pronouncements, memorable one liners, like Faraday's. As was recently said, this is "above my pay grade". Wwheaton (talk) 05:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

## 19 September 2008 Anomally discussed in Science this week

The latest issue of Science[6] has an extensive and fairly troubling discussion of the 19 September magnet fault. It is of course much less detailed than the Joerg Wenninger talk referred to above, but it is no longer an internal document, but should qualify as a reliable source, now being in the permanent archival literature. (The web link needs a subscription to access, but the paper version should arrive in libraries within a few days.) Anyhow, it seems to me it gives enough that we should really consider a separate section in the main article about it, as it is truly a major incident due to a design flaw in the machine that cannot be completely fixed--meaning there is some danger of a recurrence, even though some partial fixes (which should reduce the damage to a single magnet) are being implemented:

The pressure built up in the magnet casings because only every fourth one had an emergency relief valve and those were too small to release the errant helium into the LHC tunnel quickly enough. To correct that shortcoming, workers will install a larger valve on every casing, the report says.

It was this pressure surge that did most of the physical damage. In total 53 of the large bending magnets are being removed from the tunnel, 39 to be repaired and the remainder to be cleaned so that high vacuum can be restored in the beam pipes.

"It absolutely must not be allowed to happen again," says CERN's Lyn Evans, who leads the LHC project. "It's a machine on the edge, and all effort must go into learning the warning signs" of trouble.

1. ^ Boyle, Alan (2 September 2008). "Courts weigh doomsday claims". Cosmic Log. msnbc.com.
2. ^ Blaizot JP, Iliopoulos J, Madsen J, Ross G, Sonderegger P, Specht H (2003). Study of Potentially Dangerous Events During Heavy-Ion Collisions at the LHC. CERN. Geneva. CERN-2003-001.
3. ^ Ellis J, Giudice G, Mangano ML, Tkachev I, Wiedemann U (LHC Safety Assessment Group) (5 September 2008). "Review of the Safety of LHC Collisions". ''Journal of Physics G: Nuclear and Particle Physics. 35, 115004 (18pp). doi:10.1088/0954-3899/35/11/115004. CERN record. arXiv:0806.3414.
4. ^ "The safety of the LHC". CERN 2008 (CERN website).
5. ^
6. ^ Adrian Cho, "Sotto Voce, LHC Repair Plan Points to Weaknesses in Original Design", Science, 12 December 2008: Vol. 322. no. 5908, pp. 1620 - 1621

Wwheaton (talk) 07:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

## First Reference

Hi, do we really have to quote some blogger as ref.[1] to explain that the protons in the LHC travel at 99.99999% of the speed of light? Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 14:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

## Accomplishments

I believe an accomplishment section on the LHC article is justified. To my understanding, wasn't it successful in creating quark gluon plasma already, among other materials (unless I have this confused with another device)? Wikicali00 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.206.33 (talk) 19:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

It hasn't started colliding particles yet, how could it have created QGP? You are confusing it with the RHIC. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:34, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

## Videogames

Perhaps it's just me (I'm not into videogames) but I think that the paragraph on Half Life is way too long. In an article on the LHC (even in the "popular culture" section) we should not spend three lines explaining what the "Black Mesa Research Facility" is, surely there is already a Wikipedia entry devoted to that. And to the author of a sentence such as The LHC's so-called ability to produce miniature black holes or cause other doomsday scenarios I would recommend at least a thorough reading of the Safety of particle collisions at the Large Hadron Collider article. How do the other editors feel about that? Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to get rid of it entirely. The gaming community is not that large (though overrepresented on Wikipedia) and I don't think anything confined to that community, as this is, is notable enough to mention in an article about the LHC. In the Half-Life article, sure. "What links here" is the right way to learn about references in the less notable → more notable direction. I'd like to get rid of the other items too for the same reason. Every one of them is mentioned in another article that links to LHC, or easily could be. -- BenRG (talk) 20:29, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I also would like to suppress this kind of material, though I confess I am somewhat prejudiced against video games, and worry that this is just my problem. And I hate to seem unfriendly to folks with other interests. Can we suggest the reader look at WhatLinksHere by a link in the main article? I would not have thought to try that in my naive experience with Wiki, but that seems good enough if an inexperienced reader could be helped to find it and use it. Wwheaton (talk) 22:56, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
and it's gone. To be honest I think most of it can be removed, passing liaisons between one subject and another doesn't mean they should be automatically listed in either article, only if the trivia or liaison is in itself notable or of encyclopedic value. Khukri 09:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

## Summer of '09

Hi, what is the Wikipedia policy on this matter? Can we keep writing that the LHC will restart in summer 2009 (as in the CERN press releases) or should we show more respect to people of different latitudes? ;-) Happy new year Ptrslv72 (talk) 19:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The relevant policy is WP:SEASON, CERN may think of itself as a Northern hemisphere organisation, but Wikipedia tries to work globally. ϢereSpielChequers 02:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, if that is the policy I won't stand in the way. However, if you read a few threads above in the discussion page, you will see that Summer 2009 was a hard-reached (and deliberately vague) compromise, due to the uncertainty on when the LHC will actually restart. I am not sure that mid 2009 carries the same "Septemberish" connotation... And if I remember correctly the argument "it will be summer in Geneva" has already been used by at least another regular editor. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 12:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
How about "end of July" then, or perhaps "around end of July" or possibly "expected to be operational around the end of July"? (as supported by the reference mentioned before). That would make it more international.
Apis (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm happy with that. ϢereSpielChequers 16:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
just put maybe 2009 ;) Khukri 17:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
If we're looking for ambiguousness then "Q3'09" (or words to that effect) surely gives the same connotation globally as summer '09 does for CERN's point of reference? - -NotHugo- - (talk) 23:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Not to sound negative, but "not before July 2009", or something similar, might be more realistic. Wwheaton (talk) 01:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

## Automatic archiving needs fixing

January 2009

I noticed that recent conversations are being automatically archived to archive 4, instead of archive 8. Not sure how to fix this. Cheers, Phenylalanine (talk) 11:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Chamal has fixed it for us, and I've moved the relevant archives from 4 to 8. WereSpielChequers 12:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

## Why is there a picture from Fermilab?

There is a picture of fermilabs quatropole magnets. Wouldnt it be better with something from LHC?

84.216.43.225 (talk) 17:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC).

That picture is from Pt5, and Fermilab provided the inner triplet quadrupoles, part of the infamous breakdown in 2007. Khukri 18:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

## "In popular culture" again

The "in popular culture" section has once again grown to half a dozen paragraphs from a low of one, and I'd like to once again raise the question of what should be included and why.

We all know how these sections grow: a random reader comes along, notices there's a popular culture section, notices their favorite science-fiction novel/show/movie isn't mentioned, and helpfully adds it. There are three solutions: 1. delete the section, thus removing the temptation; 2. have a policy clear enough that we can revert these edits without seeming arbitrary; 3. don't do anything and let the section grow without bound, figuring that experienced WP readers are used to this and will just skip over it.

I'd like to delete the section. The only information in the whole section that strikes me as potentially useful to readers is the link to CERN's "Spotlight: " page, which has an informative (if low-level) Q&A. That could be moved to the external links section. The Large Hadron Rap isn't very useful but is a quasi-official CERN publication, and could go in external links also. The rest is essentially a list of fiction writers who know zilch about the LHC but have chosen to use it in their stories as a generic bugaboo or science thing. Maybe some of these stories are a good read/watch, but it's certainly not for reasons pertaining to the LHC. They might belong on a list of good fiction, but not here.

I don't like option 3, but I'll bow to superior numbers if enough other people favor it. I can't think of a good criterion for option 2. I don't think the current criterion (included in an HTML comment in the section itself) is good enough. -- BenRG (talk) 02:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Any attempt to define what is relevant and what is not in the "popular culture" section is going to be arbitrary and subjective. So far there is no useful information on the LHC in that section, if it disappears altogether I won't cry about it. Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 12:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree with BenRG. Let's limit this article to the technical facts, and if there is a really notable aura of cultural material, let someone make a notable article out it in its own right, as we did for the safety issue last year. I hate to be so ruthless, but it is a constant embarrassment as it stands, IMHO. Wwheaton (talk) 15:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Remove. Interesting and relevant stuff should be integrated into the body. Verbal chat
If we completely remove it it will keep coming back - not just with every SF reference we don't currently cover but all the ones now in there. But if we trim the section back to one paragraph with no specific fiction named and an editors warning that consensus is for fiction to link to the LHC but not vice versa, then we have a better article and there will be fewer attempts to add popular culture references to it. WereSpielChequers 15:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I think it's unnecessary to remove it. It's interesting to see how it's being portrayed in "popular culture". The sheer number of mentions goes to show that there is great general interest in the LHC (even if they get it totally wrong). And the fact that CERN themselves mention some of it (like the Angels and Demons FAQ) indicates it's notable. It may have no technical value, but it is interesting to see how much interest there is around the LHC from others than the scientific community, and how that interest is being expressed etc. This isn't supposed to be merely a technical article about the LCH, it should aspire to cover a more holistic view of the project.
I think WereSpielChequers suggestion is reasonable. Rewrite the section so that it doesn't take up any undue weight compared to the rest and add a little inline warning asking editors to seek consensus on the talk page before adding a reference to their favorite sf work (or whatever). :)
Apis (talk) 17:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Delete that section. 1)It is an eye sore and, 2) Fiction is beyond the scope of such thoughtfull scientific article. BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I would say delete it, or do something similar to what I and others did to tachyon. Aka have the header, but with a {{Main}} pointing to a LHC in fiction or LHC in popular culture article and send everything there but an overall discussiong of the LHC's use in fiction/popular culture. Sure it's a sort of "crap fork", but I find it very effective in these high-profile topics. Everyone wins. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβςWP Physics} 06:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The liaison in itself needs to be notable, Angels and Demons is a notable liaison it has gained press on the accuracies and how CERN was portrayed etc. Because it might appear in a passage in a book, on a website or someone thinks that their computer game has similarities to what they believe CERN is like is not inherently notable. I've said before if the link in itself is notable then it's worth inclusion if it's two subject matters, like ships that pass in the night, share a small link that isn't notable then it's not worth inclusion. Khukri 09:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I tried to clean it up a bit and add a short summary/lead. I left the stuff with references, but I don't mind if anyone wants to remove more of it. As for the section in itself I don't quite see why it would be hard to revert any "non notable" addition with an edit summary like "not notable — see talk" or similar.
I also noticed that there's an essay about "In popular culture" sections / articles.
Apis (talk) 06:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

## Faulty loaned parts

I have been unable to Google up a source for the following statement:

There were also engineering difficulties encountered while building the underground cavern for the Compact Muon Solenoid, in part due to faulty parts loaned to CERN by fellow laboratories Argonne National Laboratory, Fermilab, and KEK.

Rather, I find repetitions of the statement. The referenced article makes no mention of faulty loaned parts.

The statement after the comma seems unlikely. The CMS cavern did encounter difficulties during excavation, due to abundant groundwater in a permeable layer. I can't imagine why CERN would need to borrow any "parts" from other physics laboratories for the excavation, which is a straightforward construction task not involving high-energy physics.

I am marking the statement in question, and will delete everything after the comma unlesss someone can justify it. Cstaffa (talk) 02:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this comment is about the inner triplets from Fermilab, though not in the civil engineering sense of construction, was still in the construction phase of the LHC. When they found the underground river that was solved by a European company (Air Liquide I think) who froze the ground to allow excavation and installation of the caissons. Though you are right should be completely reworded as it is ambiguous at best. The repetitions are most probably just clones of this site. Khukri 07:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Your edit is better, but I doubt that the word loaned applies to the inner triplet magnets, and the alleged involvement of Argonne and KEK is still not supported. Cstaffa (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

## SI units

an anonymous editor has added the conversion in Joules to all the energies expressed in electron-volts. I find that this modification makes the text a lot heavier without much benefit (SI units for energies are not practical in particle physics and indeed they are hardly ever used in the scientific literature). I propose to link the definition of electron-volt in the lead and get rid of all the conversions. Of course this is open to debate. Ptrslv72 (talk) 09:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Whoops electron-volt was already linked, thus I just reverted the last change. Cheers Ptrslv72 (talk) 09:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

## Energy used to keep the protons on the circular trajectory

Among the information presented on the article, I would like to see how much energy and what centripetal force is required to keep the proton beams (and for a proton too) on the circular trajectory when their speed is 7Tev. If anyone could make the calculations and put them on the article, that would be appreciated. --LF1975 (talk) 12:22, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I've done myself a calculation and for a proton and I get 2,84192E-08J, while the total centripetal energy is 18354 J. Is it correct?--LF1975 (talk) 12:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't think it requires energy to keep the protons on their circular path. An object sliding on a frictionless track does not require energy to keep it on the track, any more than a planet requires energy to stay in orbit. The magnets have huge stored energy, but the protons do not dissipate that. There is a little energy loss due to synchrotron radiation; is that what you are trying to get at? Should the energy you are referring to be power, energy dissipated per unit time? Or is it some kind of stored energy? Sorry I don't get it, you may be correct. Maybe you could say more about your calculation, or just describe the concepts that went into it. Wwheaton (talk) 07:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, I just exchanged the last two edits. The tradition on talk pages is to put new sections last, at the end, and then carry on the discussion chronologically within the section (or sometimes out-of-time order, if someone wants to speak to a previous remark, by indenting under it). It ain't perfect, but it helps to keep things from getting too tangled. Wwheaton (talk) 07:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
My idea started from the fact that at that speed the protons have 7500 times their mass at rest. Due to inertia they tend to go in a straight line (like a planet without its sun:). Oh wait, in fact a planed goes in a "straight" line around its sun, but since the space is curved, it appears as going around, but I guess that's not the case with LHC), therefore the magnets must provide the centripetal force proportional with their mass to keep them in the circular trajectory. I was wondering if this will lead to a deviation of the proton beams towards the exterior, from the centre of the magnetic field. Well, I used a formula found on internet U = 7500 x m x omega2 x R2 for the energy. If there is a small difference between the trajectory of the colliding beams,(few °A) the protons might miss each other, or? I suppose The LHC is a very very precise instrument so the protons will be aligned extremely tight by the magnetic field. BTW, has this been done before (colliding two particle beams) in similar conditions?--LF1975 (talk) 13:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The magnets do indeed provide the force, the Lorentz force that a magnetic field exerts on a charged particle moving across it. The force is in a direction perpendicular both to the magnetic field (B) vector and to the velocity v of the particle. The accelerator is designed so that B & v are essentially perpendicular, so the particle is accelerated by the force towards the center of the orbit, say to the left. Thus it moves, roughly, in a circle. The magnets that do this basically just have a uniform vertical B field that pushes the particles to the side; they are called "bending magnets", because they bend the beam from a straight line into a curve. There are about 2800 of them I think, with an 8 T (80,000 gauss) field, around 10 m long each, and weighing many tons.
A further consideration is that if the proton gets a little bit "off the track", either horizontally or vertically, the B field needs to change there (off the track), in such a way that it is nudged back on course. It turns out that this can be done in one direction, either horizontal (H) or vertical (V), but not in both at once. To solve this problem there are additional "focusing magnets", called "quadrupoles", that have a very non-uniform field. They are arranged in pairs: for one, the B field gets stronger if the proton is off-track to the right, and bends it back towards the desired beam center line, to the left. And B gets weaker on the left, so if the proton is off that way (too close to the center of the big 9 km dia circle) it is not curved so sharply, and moves back towards the beamline's center on the right. This is called "horizontal focusing". Unfortunately the laws governing the B field decree that such a magnet must tend to defocus the beam vertically. So the second magnet of the pair is similar to the first, but rotated around the beam axis by 90° so that it focuses vertically while (necessarily) defocusing horizontally. It turns out that the two quadrupoles together can be made to focus in both directions, H and V. The combination is sometimes called a "lens" in the jargon of beam optics, because it acts rather like a simple convex lens in optics. This is a very much over-simplified description of a complex problem; the complex solution, barely outlined above, is called "strong focusing", and it works.
I think, for the LHC, the beamline is around the diameter of a human hair (though the beam vacuum pipe is much bigger, to provide clearance). At the points where the two beams are made to cross and collide, the focus is tighter still, about ~16μm dia I believe it is. Even so the protons are usually fairly far apart along the beam direction. But passing about 16μm apart (ten billion times the size of a proton) they mostly do miss each other. Going around and making many thousand passes through the collision regions each second, it could take many hours before a particular proton gets hit. Then in a day or so the beam must be replenished.
Notice that according to the Lorentz force law, the B field exerts no force parallel to v. Therefor there is no friction, and the protons just slide on their way. (They actually do need a little nudge now and then to make up for the synchrotron radiation I referred to above, that charged particles emit when accelerated.) The formula you found for the particle energy is only accurate for particles moving much slower than light. The protons at the LHC are moving almost exactly at the speed of light; see the Wiki article on Special relativity for the corrected formula that works for all v, fast or slow. Cheers, Wwheaton (talk) 02:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi Gang, I just came to my senses and noticed I have gone way overboard here in my tutorial to LF1975 about accelerator physics. Please forgive me. I have posted a suggestion on LF1975's talk page that we continue any further discussions along this line there. Maybe somebody will find it interesting (or correct any errors). It should not be trusted for ecyclopedic accuracy, of course. Cheers, Bill Wwheaton (talk) 14:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

## LHC Lawsuit

Should this page include a section about the lawsuit brought against CERN and its operation of the LHC by Walter Wagner and Luis Sancho? The suits were thrown out and did not go very far, but are interesting in terms of how LHC is perceived by many people. Clearly, the suits resulted from an inability to understand the science behind the LHC on the part of the plaintiffs. But, I think this page should cover what happened with those suits and any notable commentary by scientists or public figures on the events. Dpetley (talk) 16:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

## hackers broke in?

At first read, this sentence "There was no access [by whom?] to the control network of the collider.[42][43]" describes a denial of service attack. An improvement might be "The control network... was not affected" or "Hackers had no access to...". Walkingstick3 (talk) 04:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

## What next?!

Congratulations, all! So what do we need to do to get this up to A-class now? Seems like a worthy goal, given the importance of the project, and I hope within reach. I don't have a lot of time to devote to it, but I will at least cheer the real heroes on, and contribute as I am able. Best, Bill Wwheaton (talk) 17:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

## "In popular culture" AGAIN!!!

I see that two old favourites of the "popular culture" section, Flashforward and Torchwood, have popped out again despite the zilion discussions in the talk page about the issue. Unless somebody brings up new arguments in their defense I am going to revert the changes as "not notable". However, we should take a chance to reconsider the option of dispensing with the "popular culture" section altogether. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 12:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we should, at the very least, wait a little until after that movie has finished airing, I promise that otherwise the section will magically reappear anyway.
Apis (talk) 01:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

You're 100% right. Thanks for taking care of the modifications and Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed that the Torchwood radio play had been removed. I'm not sure whether Ptrslv72's comment above is in favor of its removal or not ("popped out again" is a bit unclear), but some of the prior discussion had indicated that the Torchwood episode was worth noting, since it had some involvement by actual CERN personnel and coverage in major British media. The Flashforward connection appears more tangential, but the Torchwood radio play was actually commissioned as part of the BBC's coverage of the LHC switch-on, so it has more direct relevance to the project.

Here's the three-sentence bit about the Torchwood play that was in the article until recently:

BBC Radio 4 commemorated the switch-on of the LHC on 10 September 2008 with "Big Bang Day".[1] Included in this event was a radio episode of the TV series Torchwood, with a plot involving the LHC, entitled Lost Souls.[2] CERN's director of communications, James Gillies, commented, "The CERN of reality bears little resemblance to that of Joseph Lidster's Torchwood script."[3]

1. ^ "BBC - Radio 4 - Big Bang Day". BBC. 2008-09-10. Retrieved 2008-09-11.
2. ^ "Programming for Big Bang Day on BBC Radio 4". BBC Press Office. Retrieved 2008-08-11.
"Radio 4 - Big Bang Day". BBC. Retrieved 2008-09-10.
Donovan, Paul (2008-09-07). "The BBC has Big Bang to rights". The Sunday Times. Retrieved 2008-09-11.
3. ^ Gillies, James. "CERN in Science-Fiction". BBC Radio 4 website. BBC. Retrieved 2008-09-11.

I'm open to any rewording that condenses this further, but I do still feel that it's worth a brief mention in the article. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 04:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Do as you wish, in my opinion it's the whole section that should go and the article should stick to the science, but I agree that there is no compelling criterion to retain "Angels and Demons" and discard "Torchwood" (that is indeed the intrinsic problem of the "popular culture" section). However, I have two comments
1) "popped out" was indeed confusing - to put it mercifully - and I can only say in my defense that English is not my native language. However, what I meant should have been obvious from the rest of my comment (what part of "not notable" was unclear to you?)
2) the "prior discussion" you are referring to is mostly something that you wrote on the talk page. It does not seem to me that a consensus on Torchwood had been reached back then, and there was a lot of further discussion afterwards.
Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Fair enough. Re-reading the discussion from January (which I missed at the time), it does seem that the regular editors of this page aren't very keen on the section's existence. Of the options discussed then, I think that creating a spin-out article for Large Hadron Collider in popular culture is the best; that way, sourced and notable content isn't lost, but the focus of the main article can remain on the science, as seems to be the wish of the regular editors here. The section in this article could be reduced to the first paragraph, with a {{Main}} or {{Details}} link to the new article; that way, the main article doesn't ignore the cultural impact of the LHC, but also doesn't get bogged down in details. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 18:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
This is indeed a constructive approach, I support it but I won't be the one who maintains the new article... ;-) Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 20:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed that Large Hadron Collider in popular culture used to be its own article, but its content was moved to Large Hadron Collider by Phenylalanine (talk · contribs). Phenylalanine hasn't been around for a few weeks, but I've dropped him a line to give him an opportunity to join the discussion before I reverse his action. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 17:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
When was this? I have been following the LHC article since September 2008 and if I am not mistaken during those nine months "In popular culture" has always been a subsection of the main article. Ptrslv72 (talk) 21:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
It was only for about a week in July 2008. See here. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 22:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
A popular culture section could be great, although it shouldn't be a trivia list. Personally I think the section shouldn't be about individual works at all, but rather give an understanding about how LHC has had an impact on works of fiction and how it's being portrayed and so on.

I'm guessing Angels & Deamons are more famous outside Britain than torchwood though, but what do I know.

I'm not sure I like the separate page idea, I suspect it might become a "crap fork". But it might be worth a try...
Apis (talk) 20:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I am afraid that it would be difficult to avoid individual works and give a general understanding of the impact of the LHC on fiction without falling in the original research trap. Ptrslv72 (talk) 21:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes that would likely be difficult.
Apis (talk) 20:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I've stayed out of these types of arguments about the content of the section, as it often ends up being an argument about who's fancruft is more important etc. But what I would like to repeat is my thoughts on the criteria for these types of links as I have previously stated when this subject comes up. I believe the link itself needs to be inherently notable, just because two different articles have a common subject matter does not make it worthy of inclusion, or worth discussion. Ludicrous example: adding to the St Peter article that Jon the third actor on the left in X film has a dog called Peter is not notable. These are two different subjects that have a common theme, but no direct interaction and isn't noteworthy. However Guy Gibson having a dog called 'Nigger' is worthy of inclusion in any number of articles as a commentary on the social ideals and what was acceptable at the time. Now I know this is rambling, but this can be applied to this section, does X film/game/book just use the LHC as a MacGuffin, or is there actually some notability in it's usage or were there some consequences of it's usage? Now Torchwood, Flash Forward and the computer game that sometimes gets added fall (in my humble opinion) into the MacGuffin category. Angels & Demons however, in the same vein as The Da Vinci Code, made certain statements that have been taken on by the general public as plausible or as facts, and that CERN has had to issue information and a FAQ of sorts to correct some of these misconceptions is borderline becoming notable. These are just my thoughts though if they are included it should be kept in the context of the article and not a focal point, and kept in perspective. Cheers Khukri 08:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)