Talk:Legalism (Chinese philosophy)/Archive 7

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Basic concepts section

The peer review published in January I didn't notice has requested a basic concepts section. I should be able to put one together, and I can be begin doing so right away.

I will sort out the references in On the Qin section and attempt to simplfiy it.FourLights (talk) 12:10, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

You would have done well to actually read what was written. Where was the "request for a basic concepts section"? Where, more pertinently, was the request for an 800-word indiscriminate, unsourced, unintelligible mess? I can only assume that your goal is to make this subject completely incomprehensible to anyone who wants to know anything about it.

I will remove the entire section per WP:CHALLENGE. I beg you, go read pages like WP:MTAU and WP:BETTER, because your current understanding of what makes a good Wikipedia article is clearly far removed from what it needs to be. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I take the basic concepts idea as representative of the Britannica you linked. However, after reading these, I can put together something smaller and more basic. You could have still commented on some of the information itself however? While sources are not always easy to come by, if we have an idea of the information, I can potentially put something together.FourLights (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Or, even better, step away from this article and go edit something completely different for a few months. Since this edit in March 2023, you have edited the article over 10,000 times. It really should be FA-class by now. Instead, it is barely a C-class article. This shows, very clearly, that you have no idea how article development on Wikipedia should work and that you believe that your slow degredation of this article is somehow contributing to the project (hint: it isn't). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:47, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

While the entire article could be dumped and rework If you could step back I can tell you the actual problem. The Fajia are not a real school and they are not a Warring States school. They are category invented in the Han dynasty. It's figures are a smorgasboard of figures in the Han Feizi. Their category does not exist in the Warring States period. Shang Yang is located in the remote west in Qin state and has law but lacks administration. Central China does not even know about him. Shen Buhai in the Han state has administrative method but lacks law. Han Fei is a philospher in the Hann state who inherits Shen Buhai's administrative method and proposes Shang Yang's law. Shen Dao is a philosopher in chapter 40. There is no Legalists it's just people in the Han Feizi.

The school doesn't even exist, it's figures are actually out of the School of Names. The Qin dynasty wasn't Legalist either, it's a Han dynasty fabrication.FourLights (talk) 18:02, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

The category doesn't even really exist in academia anymore. It's a question of what to talk about it and how to talk about it. We want to talk about the figures and subject, but the actual history of the subject is that there was no Legalist school, it was invented in the Han dynasty. If there was a Legalist it was Shang Yang, the others weren't Legalists.FourLights (talk) 18:21, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, very good attempt at deflecting attention from your failures to the difficulties of the subject which you have apparently failed to resolve in 25,000 freaking edits. Again, to repeat: you have no idea how to improve a Wikipedia article and are under the delusion that you are somehow improving the project by consistently degrading this article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:34, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

There is no project, I wrote the article. There may be some good information in page, in the backlog, in the archives, and in my sandbox. But while I have failed thus far there is nothing to deflect, I am the only volunteer. While I may not be good at what I do, what I presented to you is the actual problem. If the article is dumped, it's dumped. It might be a hundred years before anyone worked on it again. If I am failing, which I am, I am only failing at my own work.FourLights (talk) 18:37, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

There is no project, I wrote the article. There may be some good information in page, in the backlog, in the archives, and in my sandbox. But while I have failed thus far there is nothing to deflect, I am the only volunteer. While I may not be good at what I do, what I presented to you is the actual problem.FourLights (talk) 18:37, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I wrote the article If there is "an actual problem", it is that.

This version dates from 20 May 2014. I have no doubt that it contains all manner of simplifications, inaccuracies, and misrepresentations. But I would support reverting to it every single day of the week, because it remembers what you are oblivious to: Wikipedia is meant to be read by other people. So, let us revert to it, and see if it takes anyone a hundred years to start improving it. Can't be worse than what we have now. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:42, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I won't object, but I would appreciate it you would be able to get anyone to try and work on the subject with me, I would a good guide even if I am not a good writer. I would point out that what you are reverting it to is a simplification of what would be contained in my "basic concepts" section, even if I didn't immediately have comprehensive sourcing.FourLights (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

FourLights, I suggest reading WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. As someone also working in the Sinosphere on Wikipedia (see Cai Lun or List of Chinese monarchs), I understand the frustration of colliding historiographical models on a very dynamic tradition. However, we both know that there is an orthodox and certainly still prevalent way to describe the fundamental tenants, history and practices of Legalism. That is what this article should fundamentally reflect: the general consensus of reliable sources. Looking at the "On the Qin" section, I'd say you do this somewhat well, but lessen the focus on specific sources. Why does a general reader need to know that these discoveries were "Based on the archaeological discoveries represented in the Cambridge History (1986,1999)"? And where is the citation for "the Qin empire's laws were primarily administrative, concerned with such items as weights and measures"? These are the kinds of things you should be addressing.

Remember that this is a summary, not an overview. We don't need to hear every individual scholar's name and view. We need to here the consensus, and then notable names for notable opinions. Take a look at the Shinto article where this is done; it's much more readable and comprehensive (without being overly detailed). Aza24 (talk) 21:13, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. The "the Qin empire's laws were primarily administrative, concerned with such items as weights and measures" is a combination of the Bo Mou Routledge and the 1986 Cambridge. The Routledge is this case essentially reiterates the earlier statement of the Cambridge 1986; it is not a preferable document, but rather, important in the history of Sinology as a retrospective, and hence, to my work on the back-end. More work on the Qin is certainly needed, later sources, which in this case would also start with later work by Michael Loewe on the Qin. The main reason I ended up starting with the Cambridge 1986, in my own work, is because it was a pivotal document for the subject as a first release of the information, which makes it relevant in understanding the history of the subject in Sinology, even if I have to look into later source.

Legalism as a subject presumably goes into decline partly because it does not match the information contained in 1986, although relevant information is also contained in Creel in Hansen. The only good, and one of the few documents that takes "Legalism" as a subject, if flawed, in the following decades after, is Kairyn Lai 2008. While the Stanford Encyclopedia has an article, it doesn't combine with the Mohists for instance like earlier thinkers do. While there is a work, "Adventures in Chinese Realism", and there are works talking about the individual people, the subject goes into terminal decline, because there was no Legalist school, and thus sees a decline in work as a category. Pines isn't perfect either, contains some contradiction, although I can make perfectly good sense of him. While I need to read Adventures, a problem is a both the lack of a good modern guide and a paucity of work on the subject itself, although there is still some I need to look into. The earlier works are imperfect, and cannot serve as a perfect guide, but clarify the later work.FourLights (talk) 21:26, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I will work on rechecking and tidying up the weights and measures statement to something closer to the Cambridge.FourLights (talk) 21:30, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

If possible, I could bounce work off of you or someone else, unless AirshipJungleman29 would like to volunteer to receive writings.FourLights (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Although niche article sources are likely needed, nobody would actually need to read my sources to start. I have extraordinary knowledge of the subject. Me and someone else merely need to discuss writings to start.FourLights (talk) 22:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

You are welcome to run drafts by me; perhaps these things would be better experimented with in your sandbox, and the moved to the main space.

I'm glad to hear about your citation rationale. Moving the reference closer to the text is an improvement; another one would be giving a page number, or at least a small page range for the Cambridge source. Keep in mind that there are three general components of referencing: Reliability, Verifiability and Formatting. The Reliability of your sources is strong, the verifiability and formatting could use a lot of improvement. I would focus on verifiability for now (putting appropriate and specific citations near the text they're citing), we can do formatting later. Aza24 (talk) 02:26, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

My current reading in Cambridge 1999 doesn't appear to be going anywhere, and thus need to look at other sources for the section, but I have already tidied up the On the Qin section for the few existing sources. If it happens to be available for you, the links are to the most important pages.FourLights (talk) 02:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Although I will otherwise put in a review question for it, we need to consider what if any content currently in the Contemporary Predecessors belongs on the page, what might be moved to a later section other work or rewriting aside, or otherwise belong on the fa page. In terms of source, while there may be some question, it's only the most theoeretical component is more questionable; specific high level details aside, it's broadly accurate.FourLights (talk) 16:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC).

I'll simplify it regardless.FourLights (talk) 19:13, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Although I am not finished sorting references as requested, and I am not sure how enlightening and specific it will be, I will read the style manuals presented. That I haven't read them before is because the wikipedia back-end isn't actually well designed; I have no idea where anything is.FourLights (talk) 09:05, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines. You probably need to inspect the Manual of Style and the editing guidelines first. Also, people have been linking you to the style manuals for years, so while I guess you could blame your unfamiliarity on bad design, I think your selective reading is probably a better shout. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

xkcd 2501 is also relevant for you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I have done a quick skim of references and bibliographies; here is a suggestion of how to organise the article per WP:SS, WP:MTAU, and MOS:LAYOUT, based on Oxford bibliographies:

==Nomenclature and scope==
Discuss: "Faija" as a word, and "legalism" as a translation of it; is "legalism" a good translation? does "faija" even mean anything concrete? when did the term appear? is it useful? 
Example citations: Creel 1970, Vandermeersch 1987, Xu 1995, Fu 1996, Smith 2003, Goldin 2011,

==Historical thinkers==
===Background===
Short. The current five paragraphs is far too lengthy and vague.

===Shen Dao===
Discuss: "Positional power", interest in "fa".
Example citations: Xu 1976, Thompson 1979, Chen 2001, Harris 2016

===Shen Buhai===
Discuss: administrative techniques, state bureaucracy
Example citations: Creel 1974, Chen 1997, Lau, et al. 2000

===Shang Yang===
Discuss: Importance of a legal system with punishment and rewards
Example citations: Li 1977, Zheng 1987, Yoshinami 1992, Zhang 2012, Tong 2013, Pines 2017

===Han Feizi===
Discuss: "analysis of political and social organization from a social scientific perspective"; incorporates some of above thinkers' ideals along with others'
Example citations: Wang and Chang 1986, Lundahl 1992, Zhu 1992, Lau, et al. 2000, Watson 2003, Goldin 2013, Sato 2013

Discuss (minor): are the Han Feizi commentaries on Laozi authentic?
Example citations: Lau 1989, Sarkissian 2001, Kim 2010, Queen 2013,

===[Insert other major Legalist thinker]===
etc.

==Concepts==
===Morality and "Fa"===
Discuss: amoral political theory, yes or no? discussions of morality; also what is the purpose of "fa" in the political theory?
Example citations: Wang 1977, Schwartz 1985, Graham 1989, Winston 2005, Bárcenas 2013, Harris 2013, Yang 2013

===Xingming===
Discuss: what? performance and title? statutes and penal codes? development of Confucian zhengming?
Example citations: Creel 1970, Wang and Chang 1986, Makeham 1990, Levi 1993, Yang 2010

===Rulership===
Discuss: support for totalitarian rulers (?) and resulting paradoxes
Example citations: Rubin 1976, Mou 1983, Song 2010, Galvany 2013, Pines 2013

===Rhetoric===
Discuss: role in broader political thought
Example citations: Zhang 1997, Lu 1998, Lyon 2008, Pines 2012, Hunter 2013

==Philosophical relationships==
===With Confucianism===
Discuss: was Han Fei a student of Xunzi at all? were they linked? where did the agreements/disagreements lie?
Example citations: Kaizuka 1982, Hutton 2008, Flanagan and Hu 2011, Bárcenas 2012, Sato 2013, Van Norden 2013

===With other thinkers===
Discuss: Huang-Lao (Jan 1991, Wang 2007/2012), Zuangzi (Vervoorn 1981), Mozi (Zhou 2008), Laozi (Wang and Chang 1986), Mozi and Laozi (Ivanhoe 2011)

I'm not an expert, but that seems much better organised than the current jumbled mess. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Noting here that FourLights has chosen not to reply here for reasons known only to themselves; instead, they have chosen to engage at my talk page. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I did not see this. The notifications only informed me of the lede change.FourLights (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

You are requesting something closer to what I had originally, with the individual figures, but condensed. I could simply revert back to that version of the page, and work on condensing and improving the information. I was under the impression that people did not want it that way, but I have no objection to it. Perhaps it only needs to be more succinct in that regard. But I admit even the figuree themselves still need some work, and it is correct that some of it could be split off into a concepts section. Overall I think it's a good idea, if thats what people want.FourLights (talk) 21:16, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Just FYI Shen Dao is only a minor figure.FourLights (talk) 21:17, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I will look for the older version of the page without objection, and storage the material here for later work. Keeping in mind that it's not complete, it can probably conform, at least as a draft, to the idea you have here.FourLights (talk) 21:23, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't have sufficient material to condense Han Fei. If you revert to the original page, I can combine commentaries on the concepts, which will also include the figures. The figures only exist as concepts, some of which are shared. Not all of the concepts are shared.FourLights (talk) 21:38, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I will revert the page and work on digging up and putting together a section on Fa. Shu is a kind of fa, so I'd just talk about the distinctions. I can talk about shi, which is only a minority concept. Then we can talk about other concepts.FourLights (talk) 21:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll put together a clarifying introduction.22:17, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence of the article is "While Shang Yang was a major figure for the Qin, the major administrative concepts found in Shen Buhai and his successor Han Fei also have an least probable influence in Qin dynasty administration." This is immediately incomprehensible to an uninformed reader. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I've incorporated it more briefly into the introduction.FourLights (talk) 21:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

You could request that I provide more information on the figures than is present in the introduction, but it would essentially go through the individual figure's pages before it makes it here. You could tell me what kind of information you would like, but I would have to locate quality sources of information first.FourLights (talk) 22:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

It is better now. Please try to familiarise yourself with the footnote system I have begun to implement (see Help:Shortened footnotes); stubbornly trying to reintroduce your old, half-baked style is helpful for no-one, and the article least of all. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:27, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I can try to pick it up, but could you provide a link for instructions on the use of your footnote system? Also, could you provide feed back on "Han Fei's system allowed ministers to 'bid' for office on the basis of their own proposals." I can look into expanding explanation, but this is a component of Han Fei's system demanding performance in accordance with the office (as opposed to ministers just doing whatever they like.)FourLights (talk) 00:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

You seem to have modified Goldin's page numbers; is your document using different page numbers? The document is available freely online, it was using the page numbers I had for it. https://ealc.sas.upenn.edu/sites/default/files/bio/%5Buser-raw%5D/papers/Persistent%20Misconceptions%20about%20Chinese%20Legalism%202016.pdfFourLights (talk) 01:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

If you had read my comment, you would have seen the link. Goldin's page numbers have indeed been adjusted, to match the version that was actually published in the Journal of Chinese Philosophy. The problem with the "Han Fei's system..." is that one has no idea what the previous sentence means. What performance? What ministers? What office? What is "bidding" for office? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Incidentally, as long as the article's title is "Legalism", you will need to be using that word in the body, instead of "Fajia". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I could propose to change the name but what you're talking about would be far be less practicable even if we discard accuracy; Legalism is a translation of fajia, and Legalism and Fajia are discussed as different things in academia where Legalism isn't used as a convention. Creel divides Shang Yang and and Shen Buhai as Legalist and administrative branches, which is itself a clarification; while Creel is old, he has a great deal of accuracy, and is essentially a prominent figure in almost every modern western work on the subject, and even works written by asians. His model has itself been commonly used, including in old works like A.C. Graham and the Cambridge history. I didn't choose him randomly.FourLights (talk) 03:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll have to review the works on xing-ming or Han Fei more broadly before I can propose a better mini-introduction; as an introductory statement, it was intending to avoid too much technicality.FourLights (talk) 03:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I suppose it was originally published in the Journal. Where are you reading it?FourLights (talk) 04:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

If you believe that "Faija" is a better name for what the article talks about, start a WP:Requested move discussion to change it. Until then, the article has to address its title, not what its title isn't. I agree that Creel is a prominent academic who should be extensively used; you just aren't explaining what he says very well. Remember, Wikipedia:Make Technical Articles Understandable. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 04:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The current section is more based around Sima Qian and a discussion of Fajia and it's history without getting too nitty gitty, which is kind of what i figured you might like for that. I could try to think of a way to incorporate Creel more, and I do have his Shen-Pu Hai, but apart from being centered on Shen Buhai he is also very historical, and I figured we were trying to cover some basic historical highlights while including philosophical elements for it's Han dynasty introduction. There are some other relevant historical points, like the establishment of the Academy. Later I was going to discuss them in other categorical ways, like Shang Yang and Han Fei's emphasis on a rich state and army, with it's history. Creel discusses things like, Shen Bugai was early recieved only in terms of bureaucracy, and Shang Yang ultimately only in terms of penal law.FourLights (talk) 04:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

You yourself suggest that we talk about Fajia, and at the moment I've only covered one portion of it. Although it would take some work, I do think it could be expanded on, in a practical, philosophical way, and not just a categorical historical dissection. Given that it's name is Fajia, while the Stanford is Fa tradition, they already include some of the same topics, and Goldin talks about Fajia philosophically also. Legalism could potentially be discussed as a category seperately too, but you have to keep in mind, it's a deprecated category, might requiring finding some more nitty gritty articles - I always considered Winston high quality as a philosophy about Legalism, but I don't know that anyone has referenced him besides Tao Jiang.FourLights (talk) 05:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you requested an at least slightly technical/historical discussion more in depth than I have now. It might also be productive to speak with wikipedia China, but you have to keep in mind that we receive limited attention, it may take some time to get a response.FourLights (talk) 05:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I've submitted a request to the wikipedia china to discuss introductions.FourLights (talk) 07:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

We don't have to discuss the term itself right now, and I don't need to use it either; generally I wouldn't anyway apart from discussion of the term itself. I can move mention of it back up to the lede and still discuss the history.FourLights (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Reward and punishment

Apart from resurrecting older material, I'll be able to put together a section on reward and punishment using the encyclopedia of Chinese philosophy, which includes commentary on the Guanzi. Including an expanded comment on the Qin, this effectively creates more of a timeline for the idea. Airship considered it an important discussion, though he may not like the first draft.FourLights (talk) 07:44, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for being absent from work on this article, and I am glad to see you still making progress on it. By the way, I've created the redirect Xingming to this article, pointing to a #Xingming section that does not yet exist—it's fine for the moment, but someone might be confused in the future. Remsense诉 08:06, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello. I understand the confusion since I earlier did not have knowledge of xingming. But while Xingming comes to fruition in the Shen Buhai-Han Fei, you should know that Xingming has a broader earlier mileu in the school of names, which is literally called Xingmingjia. Xun Kuang etc also has a Xingming method, in line with the Confucian rectification of names. Some day a page will have to be created for it, if sufficient connective material exists.FourLights (talk) 08:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I would recommend focusing on writing coherent sections first. The first two paragraphs of the "Han Fei's lineage" section are near incomprehensible to an uninformed reader. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)