Talk:List of Canadian flags

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Municipal flags[edit]

I am more than a little confused by User:117Avenue's objection to the addition of the municipal flags. His edit summary indicated something about a violation of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Canadian flags; but, while I do see there some suggestions to remove all the municipal flags, they're based on the presence of non-free media. In adding the municipal flags, I was careful to check that all the images were free before I placed them here. One individual at the AfD mentioned removing all municipal flags because once the non-free images are removed the list is "incomplete"; yet, we've other groupings of flags here that are incomplete: those of the territorial commissioners, unofficial regional flags, and military flags, for instance. So, the logic behind deleting all the municipal flags seems fuzzy, at best. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Because we can't list all municipal flags, we shouldn't start adding them. It implies there is criteria for city inclusion. 117Avenue (talk) 02:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I just addressed the contradiction in that thinking; but, again: What is it about the incomplete list of municipal flags that implies a criteria for inclusion that the incomplete lists of military, commissioners', first nations, and unofficial regional flags does not? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 03:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Also not sure of the thinking here...whats the problem? Y are this additions begin reverted... besides the fact one person thinks its odd... non of them are nonfair use as noted in the revert...So could you explain Y your deleting other peoples contributions besides your POV??? I was just about to add Ottawa.Moxy (talk) 03:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I didn't know the military list is incomplete. I am not sure how many other ways I can say this, the flags listed contribute to the make-up of the Canadian monarchy, government, and militarization, there are thousands of municipalities in Canada, we can't say any are more important than others, and we can't get novice editors thinking that their flag got missed, to have them add it. 117Avenue (talk) 04:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
You're arguing for one list to go because it's incomplete but are content to let multiple others stay despite being incomplete. Given the difficulty of ever getting the full collection of military flags or historical flags, fairness and consistency would indicate that you feel they should be deleted as well. Why don't you? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 05:05, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
117Avenue...What are you saying more important ?? No one said anything of the sort,..........What you should be doing is asking that the municipalities be moved to there own article because there is so many...Instead you have deleted valid contributions by others because YOU think people will be offended. (we dont care because Wikipidia is not censored) Wikipidia is here to grow and expand ..this would be the opposite that you have done. ....So i would suggest you reinstate the deletion and perhaps ask for a split of the municipalities to there own page. Intime i would guess this new page could be filled...its not our fault your municipality copyrighted there flag and it cant be added....this does not mean the other cities have to be deleted because as a municipality they realized that public domain flags are good for recognition and tourism. Moxy (talk) 05:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, I imagine that the 'incomplete list' templates I've just added to the incomplete lists would eliminate any editors' suspicions that their city was left out because of some particular bias. And it would encourage them to add what's missing; as you say, Wikipedia has no shortage of space. That said, 117Avenue does have a point if there really are thousands of municipal flags; the 'incomplete list' template would likely be there forever. Are there really thousands of municipal flags? Or is that just an exaggeration? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 05:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
The Aussies have a page for this and it has only the Top 100 cites for us this would be List of the 100 largest municipalities in Canada by population.Moxy (talk) 05:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I have no problems listing municipal flags, but this article is long enough as it is. Please create a new page with some sort of criteria, and provide a link to it under a new section. Just be aware people will constantly add non-free flags to that article, and it will regularly need to be cleaned up to avoid violating WP:NFLISTS. If you are not interested in maintaining the new page, I would advise against creating it, as it will likely get deleted for violating WP:NFLISTS. --Svgalbertian (talk) 14:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes i think its best to make a new page as well..In Canada most municipal flags are fairuse ...just the odd conservative cites copyright there flag. But being afraid of violating WP:NFLISTS is no reason to not make the page nor is maintaining it. Moxy (talk) 14:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
  • What I frequently see happen is that non-free media gets removed from a list article, but the free media is left behind being used in the same manner the non-free media was being used. Later, unaware editors put the non-free media back in, not understanding why its not there. It creates a long, slow, drawn out edit war of sorts with many different editors. I'm not saying I'm against free media being used in lists. But, I think there needs to be some consideration of the role of media (free or not) in a list article. Sometimes, it's inclusion really does nothing to add to the article. An even more abstract question; is a list really appropriate for an encyclopedia anyways? Are there any secondary sources dealing with the list subject in general or is it a collection of information for the sake of the collection? In any case, violating WP:NFLISTS is trivially easy and happens all too often in lists like this particular one. The very nature of the list makes it impossible for the list to be complete without violating WP:NFLISTS. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, that's why I put the editnotice on. As for addition of free images, that has to be an editorial decision; it doesn't have any effect on our non-free policy, obviously. What we need to be careful of is editors saying "well, all the images in list X are free apart from these few, so it'll be OK just to add a couple of non-free images". It won't. Black Kite (t) (c) 15:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I find that editors all the time add non-free media into articles without a proper fair use rationale and it has to be deleted; I don't see how a list is any different. But, its true that, given the requirements of WP:NFLISTS, this list will likely never be complete. Does that justify its deletion? And the answer to that question could then have ramifications for all the other lists of flags out there. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
So we still have not dealt with the deletion of the material...we going to undo the delete or should we start a new page??Moxy (talk) 16:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I'd only start a new page once this one is getting near its max limit. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree i will add them back now!Moxy (talk) 16:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
As I said, adding or deleting free images is completely a content decision. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Hang on a second[edit]

File:Flag of Cornwall, Ontario.svg - this has completely the wrong tag on it - it suggests that the uploader is the copyright holder, which is clearly wrong. What is the copyright status of this and the other municipal flags? Black Kite (t) (c) 17:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

  • What? Somebody uploaded an image and wrongfully claimed they are the copyright holder? Say it ain't so! :) --Hammersoft (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Yes, that's never happened before :) If the image is in the public domain, what would be the point in creating a self-made version of it? I'd like to see some evidence that this flag is PD, or I think it (and the others like it) probably need to be removed. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
      • I am the creator of that rendering, it was not copied from anywhere. Many copyright statements on Commons pertain to the rendering, not the design. If a flag can be recreated from the blazon, then it is fine for use on Commons as a free image. This example I would create the blazon as follows: A golden vertial triband with a black Canadian pale. A golden shield in the center of the pale contains the roundels of the coat of arms of Cornwall, UK. The roundels are outlined with two shields, decorated with fleur de lis on each corner and edge, facing inwards and outwards respectivly. That being said, if any image has copyright problems, then they should be addressed per image.--Svgalbertian (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


So, where's the discussion on User:Svgalbertian's proposed split? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:55, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

It was proposed above which is why I added the template, but I will give my proposal on how such a split would be made. There are literally thousands of municipality flags in Canada, and any article should have a criteria and be inclusive of everything in that criteria, not just the ones we have free flags for, otherwise it is a very poor list. Unfree flags should have a filler image such as File:Flag-iconcopyright3.png.The resulting article could either be: the top flags by population, e.g. List of flags of top 100 cities in Canada, or it could be grouped by province, e.g. List of flag of municipalities of Alberta. Such an article could start with the capital, then large metropolitan regions, then cities, then towns.--Svgalbertian (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Sorry; I was just being a little tongue-in-cheek with my earlier question.
I agree with the proposal to use the top 100 cities as the guideline for inclusion in the list of municipal flags, as well as with the use of "blanks" where we don't have a free image. I suspect that the addition of the aforementioned will significantly increase the size of the page, but I wouldn't split anything out until we're sure we've reached the recommended article size (though it seems to apply to readable prose and not lists). --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:51, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
While it might still be within the size limit, you will find this article being dominated by municipal flags, it would be over 50% of the article if you go with 100 cities. It will also be pretty ugly, as we only have 25 to 40 of the 100 flags suggested, with the rest being filler images. Perhaps a fair compromise would be the top 10 or 25, with an expanded article for the rest.--Svgalbertian (talk) 21:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Svgalbertian, can you address the issue of the image in the paragraph above (and the others like it) before anything else is done, please? Black Kite (t) (c) 19:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Addressed.--Svgalbertian (talk) 21:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
  • The consensus on the split is not clear, nor the rationale for it. The request appears to be based on a concern about city flags appearing in the list. I took a look at other flag lists, and city flags are sometimes included. There was discussion regarding non-free flags, but as these are not allowed in lists, it wouldn't help splitting out a section simply because it contained non-free flags or was not going to be able to display all flags, as that would be simply shifting the problem elsewhere. The discussion is over a year old, and matters may have been resolved. I have removed the split request tag. If there is still felt a need to split out the section, please start a new discussion based on the current situation, and put forward a rationale for the split. If deciding to again place a split request tag, please use the current date. SilkTork ✔Tea time 01:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

just making a note of this[edit]


Kahnawake flag[edit]

Would the Kahnawake flag (aka the Mohawk Warrior flag, the Unity flag) be appropriate here? Nsteinberg (talk) 08:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Page name and list order[edit]

When you see the words "Canadian flag", I'd hazard a guess that most folks think of the Canadian flag, the Maple Leaf. So a "List of Canadian flags" suggests it contains flags which are or have been used to represent the nation in some respect. Given its content, however, the title of this page interprets "Canadian flags" as meaning any flag from anywhere within the country. Perhaps it would be better to name the page "List of flags used in Canada". That would communicate that the list contains far more than national flags.

Users who land on a "List of Canadian flags" (or "List of flags used in Canada") would logically expect to see the Canadian flag (Maple Leaf) leading the list, certainly 'above the fold' (to use a newspaper term). Yet the Canadian flag does not appear here until position number 21(!). It shows up after five full page clicks down, and then only at the bottom of the fifth screen page (based on my settings). I propose moving the section "Civil and state" to the top of the list. These are the flags most often seen and most associated with the country, while representing the greatest physical areas of the nation. Yoho2001 (talk) 05:56, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

For the article title, either way would makes sense to me.
For the list order, it is listed according to precedence, and should not be changed. For the same reason that seeing a municipal flag listed above a provincial flag, or a provincial flag listed above the national flag would be counter to the rules for flying flags. trackratte (talk) 03:23, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Precedence seems askew if "Regional (unofficial)" flags come before federal military flags. It seems 'Regional (unofficial)' ones should be placed below civic (which are official), if not Native American and Francophone, flags. (What determines if a flag is 'official'? The Acadian flag was adopted in the 1800s.) Elsewhere, the Historical-National section might be better paired with the Maple Leaf, though I understand a desire to keep the top section a 'current collection'. Thoughts?
Putting royal, vice-regal and commissioners' flags above all others here is problematic. For one, doing so pushes national and provincial emblems so far down, users might think they're on the wrong page. For another, to be complete, even more flags would need to be inserted for all members of the royal family (some 20 in all). While precedence puts them ahead of other flags, it does so only when such individuals are present. Exceedingly rare to see, their infrequency of use, coupled with being banners of individual people, augurs for a place below most of the flags on this list. Consider, too, the flags of governors general and lieutenant-governors take precedence above all royal flags except the sovereign's. Following precedence would mean inserting them immediately after the flag of Elizabeth II, ahead of the other royal flags. Perhaps that could be done, but in a separate section, above Historical.
The Historical-National section could be expanded to include several variations, equally unofficial as those used from 1868-1965, since the flag changed with every province admitted to the union. Yoho2001 (talk) 07:02, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Over at List of British flags, the order seems to be more in keeping with what I'm suggesting for this page: national and civic flags are first, then military, government, church, et al. Flags of overseas territories are followed by those of their governors, then regions, cities, towns. Historical flags are at bottom, following all current flags, which seems to make sense. Yoho2001 (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Municipal flags redux[edit]

Some very sound points have been made here regarding the municipal flags section. Inclusiveness is a worthwhile principle, yet an unconstrained list does hold the potential to overtake the entire article. It is already growing somewhat unwieldy.

Creating a new page with a more complete list of municipal flags seems advisable. The section here could be limited to flags of Canadian urban centres with 100,000 or more inhabitants; fifty cities fit this criteria. Alternatively, if other editors deem a list of fifty to be excessive, Svgalbertian’s suggestion to include the top 10–25 cities is very sound. Stephanie Lahey (talk) 12:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Provincial flags[edit]

From reading the various articles on the provincial flags, I am struck by the fact that, in most cases, the flag introduced in the 1960s did not replace an earlier flag but rather replaced no flag at all. It seems unusual for a large unit like a Canadian province to go for decades without any flag, especially in a federal system. Did local government buildings just display the Canadian flag, or no flag at all? jnestorius(talk) 10:40, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Canadian Armed Forces Flags[edit]

I've been trying to find an example of a tricolour version of the Candian Forces Flag. I remeber seeing one flying above the head quarters of a naval base along with a few other military bases. It could be described as a Horizontal Tricolour of black (maybe dark blue), red, and airforce blue with the emblem of the Forces in the centre. Does anyone have a copy of the flag or confirm its existence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps it was the command flag of Canadian Joint Operations Command. File:CJOC.png Your description sounds a lot like that formation's badge, but I don't know if it has a flag as well. Or maybe the Commander-in-Chief Unit Commendation pennant?
Canada Commander in Chief Unit Banner.svg
Indefatigable (talk) 04:01, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

"Pantone" Canadian flag[edit]

Regarding the recent addition of a car flag of the Prime Minister of Canada, what does pantone mean in the phrase "pantone Canadian flag". I know about the Pantone colour-matching system, but I don't understand the significance of using the word in this context. By the way Pantone should have a capital since it is a trademark. Indefatigable (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Canadian Pride Flag[edit]

I'm not sure why it keeps being removed, but I don't see any reason why the Canadian variant of the Rainbow Flag can't be added to Others/Non-Official flags. It is just as much a symbol of Canadian Pride as the Duality Flag or the Flag of the Order of the Orange Lodge. Zachgriff11

Image files are typically removed from articles such as this because of their copyright licensing. There are basically two types of licenses when it comes to images used on Wikipedia: (1) a free license (i.e., free license or public domain) and (2) a non-free license. Some of the files you've recently adding to articles such as File:Flag-Ca-On-Windsor.svg (to this article) and File:Coat of arms of Canada.svg (to National symbols of Canada) are licensed as non-free content, which means that each use of the file needs to satisfy all ten non-free content criteria listed in WP:NFCCP. Using non-free images in tables/galleries/lists like in these articles is typically not allowed per WP:NFG and WP:NFLISTS. In fact, there is a template advising editors not to edit such files to this particular article at the very top of the editing window (go to the article, click edit and scroll all the way to the top and you will see it). So, before you add anymore files to any more articles, please go to the file's page and check it's licensing first. If the file is licensed under a free or PD license, then you probably can add the file without a problem. On the other hand, if the file is licensed as non-free content, you need to make sure that the partcular use satisfies Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. If you're not sure, ask for help at WP:MCQ or WT:NFCC.
As for the pride flag you're referring to in your post, I am guessing that File:Canada Pride flag.png is what you're referring to. If it's not, please provide a link to the file's page. Anyway, "File:Canada Pride flag.png" is licensed as public domain so it's use is not subject to Wikipedia's non-free content use policy; however, the file may be being removed for some other reason as explained in WP:IUP#Adding images to articles. Licensing matters aside, you may have to establish a consensus on this talk page to include it in the article if it keeps getting removed.
Finally, please do not use title case capitalization for section headings; Wikipedia uses sentence case per MOS:SECTIONCAPS. Also, please try and remember to sign your talk page posts. There are a coouple of ways to do this, but the easiest and most common is explained in WP:TILDE. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:53, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
@Zachgriff11: When you first added this to Rainbow flag (LGBT movement), you wrote that these flags "have become a popular sight during pride celebrations in Canada". However, the only source you cited has nothing to do with this flag design, and does not support this claim; the other submissions cite no sources. Wikipedia disallows original research. Even though neither List of Canadian flags nor Rainbow flag (LGBT movement) has exhaustive selection criteria for flags, the notability of new additions must be verifiable in reliable sources that are independent of the subject (see also WP:SOURCELIST). When describing historical events, please be specific about when and where something happened, and avoid "weasel" phrases. If you find reliable sources, just report the facts that therein without extrapolation or embellishment. —Ringbang (talk) 01:34, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Understandable, but then why does the flag of Windsor appear on the page about the Flag of Windsor? As far as I know those images a part from the Pride Flag are under Crown Copyrights which in Canada are public domain and can be used to educate the public about Canada. The Coat of Arms is under Fair use, and arguably are a more accurate representation of Canada's Royal Arms. There is another file Coat_of_arms_of_Canada_rendition.svg which would also be a more accurate representation, is under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license, is that fair game? Anyways I would very much like to add these to the articles could you possibly send me some material as to how to go about this, could I possibly add some text regarding the pride flag instead of adding the image if it cannot be used? I don't see why that information can't be put on there. It is a common flag used in Canada and I think it deserves a mention. A lot like other unofficial or commonly used flags it's origins might be difficult to find, that doesn't seem like a reason to withhold it. -- Zachgriff11 (talk)
Non-free use on Wikipedia can be tricky. Wikipedia's non-free content use policy is based on the concept of fair use, but it's purposely designed to be more restrictive for the reasons given in WP:NFC#Background. Flag of Windsor, Ontario is a stand-alone article about the flag itself, so using an image of the flag in the main infobox as the primary means of identification is typically allowed because it is assumed that there will be sourced commentary discussing the flag (e.g., its origin, meaning, imagery, etc.) somwhere within in such an article or such content can be fairly easily added without disrupting the flow, etc. of the article. In lists articles such as this, the focus in not really on one particular entry, but rather the list itself. There may be a brief description provided for each individual entry, but the detail typically required to justify non-free use is not provided. So, that is why non-free content is almost never allowed in such articles. The rationale typically applied to all types of list articles such as band discographies, author bibliographies, actor filmographies, list of notable alumni, list of TV show/movie characters, etc., etc. There has to be a pretty strong justification for non-free use that simply goes beyond simply wanting to "complete the list" or "show an image" for such usage to typically considered to be OK. In such cases, the non-free use policy usually requires that alternatives to actually displaying the non-free image be used instead. So, text or other free equivalent (WP:NFCC#1) or a link (item 6 of WP:NFC#UUI) is often used instead.
After reading all of that, if you feel that seeing this flag in this article actually improves the reader's understanding of what is written about the flag to such a degree that not seeing it is detrimental to said understanding, you're going to have to provide a non-free use rationale clearly explaining why. Every use of a non-free file is required to have a non-free use rationale per WP:NFCC#10c and those that do not can either be deleted (WP:F6) or removed (WP:NFCCE). The rationale should be specific to this particular use and clearly show how all ten non-free content criteria are met. The hardest thing is going to be providing the context required by WP:NFCC#8. Another editor may feel any non-free use you provide rationale is lacking in someway and challenge it via WP:FFD of by tagging the file with Template:di-disputed fair use rationale, but providing the non-free use rationale is the first step and needs to be done before re-adding the file.
As I posted above, Wikipedia's non-free content use policy only applies to files which are licensed as non-free; it does not apply to public domain or CC licensed files. If those files are being removed, then it may be for a reason other than licensing and may require that you esablish a consensus for inclusion on the relevant article's talk page per WP:BRD. This seems to be the stage you are at with respect to the Pride flag. What you can do is find the editor(s) who removed the flag and ping him/her/them to ask for clarification. It could've been removed in error, but there might be an actual reason for doing so. Maybe a consensus has already been established not to include the flag, so check this talk page and its archives to see if it has been previously discussed. Personally, I have to opinion either way and my primary concern only has to do with licensing of image files used on this page. It appears that Ringbang as already posted something more detailed about this, so maybe a ping is not necessary after all.
File:Coat_of_arms_of_Canada_rendition.svg is a file that was uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, and Wikimedia Commons has its own policies and guidlines. Wikimedia Commons does not accept any fair use content, so Commons' files are easier to use in articles than non-free content. This does not mean that the licensing of a Commons file is always correct because files are often uploaded with incorrect licenses (sometimes by mistake, sometimes intentionally) and eventually deleted, but in genreal it can be assumed that files from Commons are OK to use anywhere on Wikipedia. You still need to make sure of WP:IUP, but you won't have to worry about WP:NFCCP. At the same time, if you come across a non-free file uploaded lcoally to Wikipedia that you should be PD or otherwise freely licensed, it is possible to change the license accordingly. Unless you are absolutely sure that such a change will be non-controversial, it's probably a good idea to ask for opinions at WP:MCQ first. I hoped I answered your questions. If I just confused things more, you can try asking at WT:NFCC or WP:MCQ to see if someone else can help you better. --Marchjuly (talk) 03:05, 22 September 2017 (UTC)