Talk:List of Tenchi Muyo! characters

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Articles[edit]

Why do we always have an idiotic "expert" who self-admittedly knows nothing of the subject come in and merge/ruin all the articles? Every damn several years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.103.142.144 (talk) 15:21, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Take your pick, merge the articles or have them deleted or redirected? Rather than deleting all the articles I chose to merge them into one character article as they were not notable enough for seperate articles, see also WP:N and WP:V. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
I don't bother asking questions anymore, at the end of the day wikipedia is being used by many people to get their opinions of this series across, ignoring the facts of the actual series. When as most articles require some form of reference, fan theories and speculation is all over the Tenchi Muyo pages, without any evidence or reference, it's just there and we're expected to accept it as is, even when the series it's self contradicts what's written on the pages. Take the part about Kiyone Makibi for example. The article states:
"Because this story is considered to be an exaggeration by Mihoshi, it is not part of the regular OVA canon; however, Kiyone proved appealing enough to become part of the TV series cast."
Suggesting that Kiyone is nothing but a fiction created by Mihoshi for the sake of this story. However, in the same paragraph it states:
"Hakua, a "protegé" of Mihoshi who finds it hard to believe that the erstwhile Kiyone was never actually dead. She is able to verify a few points in Mihoshi's story however, meaning that while details were exaggerated the "Ultra-Energy Matter" caper does have its basis in fact."
So what is it did the event happen or not? Did Kiyone exist? Of course she existed, because regardless of whether or not the story was true, albeit heavilly embellished, we see at the end of the spidoe, Mihoshi saying that she will never forget Kiyone, outside of the context of the story, and Kiyone is sitting on a piece of space debris declaring that she will get Mihoshi for leaving her there. What's goin on here, is people are accepting some things of the series, and ignoring others simply to edify their own opinion, and seeing as NOTHING is referenced concerning these opinions and speculation, why are they here in the first place?
Kiyone exists in the OVA canon, just because Mihoshi's story was embellished, doesn't change the fact that Mihoshi SAYS that she will never forget her sacrifice (even if she isn't actually dead).124.170.111.210 (talk) 03:53, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Tenchi isnt Omnipotent[edit]

Been proven many times that he isnt the god just a being higher then the 3 goddesses Beyonder (talk) 14:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The 3 Choushin goddesses are stated to be true hyperdimensional deities, shown as enormously larger than all of existence combined, beyond physics, beyond logic and comprehension, beyond all dimensional scale, and the creators of an infinite amount of universes.

If you want the more indepth explanation infinity in projective geometry states that each higher-dimensional space is infinitely greater than the preceding number. For example, Brane Cosmology states that multiverses are 5-dimensional, so 22-dimensional space, the realm of the 22 Dimensional Supervisors serving the Choushin, is infinity raised to the power of 17 times greater than multiversal scale.

The so-called "Kami Tenchi" entity has been stated outright as the highest known supreme being of the entire Tenchi Muyo continuity, having created the Choushin as just as tiny experiment as all of reality was to them, and as such transcending, and being as omnipotent compared to the hyperdimensional Choushin as they are to ordinary beings.

Considering that the Choushin, in turn, have been stated to be far beyond all logic, physics, conceptualisation, and dimensional scale, this would logically make him completely dimensionally boundless, and as such absolutely, not just relatively, infinite.

Dictionary.com defines "omnipotence" as "Adjective: 1. Almighty or infinite in power, as God. 2. Having very great or unlimited authority or power."

"Kami Tenchi", or whatever people prefer to call him, is stated outright as the supreme unequalled being/authority of his reality, transcends all other beings and existence combined by at least several degrees of infinity, and has unlimited infinite power. It definitely qualifies within the constraints of its' own setting.

Now please stop edit warring over a franchise that you know very little about. David A (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Those dont prove anything........... http://www.deviantart.com/art/Beyonder-Unique-Omnipotence-500613480 http://www.deviantart.com/art/Molecule-Man-Defeated-By-Beyonder-500612420 http://www.deviantart.com/art/Beyond-Realm-Exist-Beyond-Existence-500613767 http://beyondergod.deviantart.com/art/Beyonder-Unique-Situation-437582416

I dont see pre-retcon on the beyonder page as omnipotent as Molecule Man (Pre-Retcon) was above ALL the cosmic beings even above the living tribunal himself and beyonder was beyond BOTH so he is infinely stronger then the entire marvel multiverse where what has kami techi shown to put him on that level???? nothing as 22-Dimensions?.....wow beyonder tanked a hit of 1Billion meaning beyonder is above all beings in tenchi muyo by feats so this doesnt prove he is omnipotent as Z was also a potetional being to be Supreme so thats a huge contradiction as the chousin stated this. Beyonder (talk) 15:29, 16 December 2014 (UTC)Beyonder

As I clearly explained and linked to above, each higher-dimensional spatial and/or temporal dimension means an infinite number of times higher level of power and existence. There is a massive difference between this and "dimension" meaning "parallel universe". A multiverse can contain an infinite number of parallel universes, and Brane cosmology states that this is just 5-dimensional space.
I dislike comparing characters between different franchises, because each of them have different rules and hierarchies. A character that is omnipotent/absolutely supreme in one setting, might not be in another, and vice versa. The point is that "Kami Tenchi", or whatever the entity is truly called, is many infinite number of times greater than everybody and everything within his setting combined.
The Beyonder has nothing to do with this separate topic, but the thing is that despite the claims of omnipotence for the character, he showed limitations on various occasions. So regardless whether or not he is stronger than "Kami Tenchi" or not, which is impossible to compare, I genuinely think that he was almost omnipotent but not quite within his own setting. This however, does not reflect on how he compares to other settings. But you know what, stop edit-warring about Tenchi Muyo, and I will simply correct the bad grammar of your current version of the Beyonder article. But then you have to leave it as it is. David A (talk) 15:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You haven't shown any type of proof actually putting real life terms in a fictional one doesn't proof as if the character like kami tenchi hasn't shown it then it isn't possible as tenchi muyo and his many OVAs shown that kami tenchi isn't a omnipotent as he never exist in the other future ovas so again as you mentioned LIMITATIONS?

  • Kami tenchi didn't create existence
  • kami tenchi wasn't created before existence
  • Kami tenchi only shown a feat of SIZE manipulation
  • Kami tenchi had forgot! Lacking omniscience much?
  • Kami tench needed a human host.
  • Beyonder as the scans shown he lives and been beyond existence and all the realities of existence.
  • Beyonder set limits ON HIMSELF so he can be on human levels.
  • Beyonder has been above all the beings combined.
  • Beyonder was TOAA before TOAA existed.

So unless you have some actual proof he is staying at a nigh status. Beyonder (talk) 16:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)Beyonder

1) The beings who created all of existence said that "Kami Tenchi" created THEM, so he created all of existence per extension.

2) Since he existed before the Choushin, and they existed before existence, yes he did.

3) His untrained comparatively limited lower-dimensional shadow almost automatically destroyed all of existence when manifesting. And the Choushin stated that the even more higher-dimensional creator that they were searching for transcended them as much as they were omnipotent compared to their own experiment, all of reality.

4) The word "omnipotence" is only related to raw power. So regardless whether or not he is omniscient, which makes sense, since all of existence looks simpler to a being of his stature than a 1-dimensional line on a paper looks to you, he can still be omnipotent.

5) "Kami Tenchi" does not NEED a human host, he is perfectly capable of existing without having an incomprehensibly tiny slice of himself cut of. He simply has a lower-dimensional shadow called Tenchi Masaki that he experiences everyday life through.

As I have explained and referenced previously, but has nothing to do on this page, the Beyonder was overloaded by Rachel Summers as host to the Phoenix Force, he had to exert himself against the Molecule Man, he lost part of or his entire power on various occasions, he stated that the Puma could kill him, and he had to give up a great amount of his power in order to destroy Death. These are all certain limitations, regardless of claims to the contrary. However, I have actually attempted to compromise on the issue in my recent edits. Not that you seem to show any counter-generosity. David A (talk) 16:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC) 1. No he didn't he was created after billions of years. 2. Chousin was trying to find the higher being and they created potential's so you must rewatch the OVAS. 3. Still needed A HUMAN VESSEL TO AWAKEN

No omnipotent being needs a human host to awaken.

Beyonder literally played Phoenix and Molecule Man if you actually read a series you don't know about you would know this! You must have forgot how he limited himself and like I said he reality warped the marvel multiverse twice as it stated in the marvel databook.

  • Overall you haven't proved me wrong. Beyonder (talk) 17:07, 16 December 2014 (UTC)BeyonderGod

1) No, Z was created by their experiments. Tenchi's higher self is clearly stated to have existed outside the box of their less higher-dimensional perceptions in the scans I linked to above. This includes their higher dimensions of time (and space).

2) They were stated to cause chaos experiments to create a link with a higher being than themselves. That is all.

3) He didn't need a human vessel to awaken. The human lower-dimensional shadow was simply an arbitrary solution for the Choushin to make a connection with the higher being, to prove an existence far outside of themselves, who had created them but was dimensionally beyond their abilities to sense.

The point about the Beyonder is not that he wasn't more powerful than Rachel and the Molecule Man during the time of the second Secret Wars. He definitely was. He simply showed certain limitations when they managed to push him, either when he collapsed on the ground or when Molecule Man slowed him down. The other instqnces that I mentioned are still relevant in this sense as well.

But if you simply want to simply define omnipotence with being the biggest kid on the playground, then yes he qualified. I just personally prefer a little higher level of supremacy to overcome all opposition without effort than that.

However, if that is your only requirement, then we can end this discussion, as Kami Tenchi is definitely stated outright to both be enormously infinite and supreme. David A (talk) 17:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect! Kami tenchi shows the actual limitations where beyonder caused his own you haven't proven anything

  • Z was going to be Infinitely/Supreme

As you said by definition? beyonder also has pasted those requirement's you set where The living tribunal is 16th dimensional meaning he is above tenchi muyoverse Mr.Mzytplk also is a 5th dimensional being meaning he is on par with the chousin

And as I said dont use wiki and which you did proving my point of how he isn't omnipotent in any shape or form as Beyonder Multiverse dwarfed the marvel multiverse and basically he WAS GOD even outside doesn't matter it still the point he was TOAA before TOAA existed nothing proves kami tenchi created the chousin and that he existed before as Kami tenchi was inside a human vessel showing limitations to his "Infinite" as many characters over hyperbole as the 3 goddesses aka the chousin was stated to be Omnipotent,omniscient and omnipresent and oh look a contradiction! Proving my statements so again please post

  • Facts from the OVA
  • Official statements from the creator

So again he is Nigh-Omnipotent. Beyonder (talk) 18:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)BeyonderGod

Z could only generate 5 lighthawk wings. 10 Lighthawk wings is the greatest number that 3-Dimensional space can support before being automatically completely destroyed. He was of at least multi-universal scale, but nowhere near even Tsunami's lowest 3-Dimensional shadow, which can generate 10 Lighthawk wings.

I have linked to screen captures showing that even the Dimensional Supervisors are 22-Dimensional, or at least D22 is, and although I despise to set different properties with different rules and settings against each other, that is technically 6 degrees of infinity above the Living Tribunal.

I have also shown screen captures showing that the Choushin are far beyond dimensional space, logic, and definition.

I have also shown screen captures with statements from the Choushin themselves that they were searching for the being to whom they were insignificant experiments, just as all of 22-Dimensional reality is to them.

The point is that omnipotence and omniscience are always relative. If the Choushin truly were supreme, and there had just been one of them with no rivals and no superiors, the entity likely would have qualified as omnipotent within the setting, thanks to qualifying for the definition of the word in terms of absolute supremacy and infinite power. However, that was not the case. There were 2 other beings of equal power, and another of an incomprehensibly infinitely higher level of power. Hence, the entity at the top gets the true title.

Also, we should stop talking about the Beyonder on the wrong page, and I have already compromised about him elsewhere to appease you. You have been going at this for 5 months straight. Just let it go. Tenchi Muyo is not important to you. You barely know about the franchise. David A (talk) 20:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Just to insert a little bit of extra information:

Masaki Kajishima, the orginal creator of Tenchi Muyo, says that the Choushin created a multiverse here.

All of existence combined is shown as a glowing mote of dust compared to the Choushin here.

Here it is also stated that the 3 Choushin goddesses were in a contest to find a being greater than themselves. That was the main running theme of the 3rd Tenchi Muyo OVA series. David A (talk) 07:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Section break[edit]

This is useless trivia that does not belong on this or any article. Stop arguing over it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:50, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I would love to, but I really need somebody fair-minded, reasonable, and independent administrator or similar to step in and find a permanent solution to this problem (maybe an independent rewrite), as I don't want to have to consistently deal with this problem month in and month out. David A (talk) 09:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
To find an acceptable compromise solution, since it seems to be the key objection, would it be acceptable to simply both remove the terms "omnipotent" and "nigh omnipotent" from the article, making it neutral on the issue, and othervise let it remain as is? David A (talk) 10:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Use only descriptions found in reliable sources or what has been explicitly stated on the media itself. Any interpretation is a violation of WP:OR.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
First off, this argument is infinitely silly for all the wrong reasons. Using a fictional character from another totally unrelated fictional universe as evidence is infinite stupidity. But sticking to the "known facts", nowhere in the Tenchi canon would the word 'nigh' ever be appropriately used in regard to Tenchi. According to Omnipotence, Tenchi exceeds being omnipotent because he can violate his own nature/laws (e.g. do the intrinsically impossible). In other words, Tenchi is absolutely omnipotent. He is not essentially omnipotent because he has the power to make himself non-omnipotent. (See Omnipotence paradox). My point being that "omnipotent" (not "nigh omnipotent") is proper usage per the canon. It's not WP:OR to state obvious canon facts. Rewriting to state the obvious in a less obvious way would not be an improvement.VMS Mosaic (talk) 10:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your comments and insights. I do have decent grammar and grasp of the English language, but am not very good at sentence structure, as I tend to think in a somewhat jumbled manner. Might I ask if you would be interested in adjusting the passages in question in a more appropriate manner, or do you know somebody else that might be interested in doing so? Thank you for your time and input. David A (talk) 13:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Should a certain fictional character be classified as omnipotent, or near omnipotent?[edit]

The problem with turning Wikipedia into a fan page for anime characters, rassling moves, and K-pop announcements is the lack of reliable secondary sources, and that is the problem here as well. Participants are reminded that this discussion appears, to the ignorant outsider, to be absolutely ridiculous; User:Xenomorph erotica is thanked for bringing common sense and policy into play. Just to be clear: what qualifier needs to be added to the (typically unqualifiable) word "omnipotent" cannot be decided based on this discussion. Drmies (talk) 02:27, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As I stated above, the correct technical classification would be absolutely omnipotent (i.e., transcendently omnipotent), so in layman's terms, he is 'omnipotent' for every and all known, unknown and unknowable intents, purposes and circumstances. VMS Mosaic (talk) 10:10, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
  • What specifically does the text/dialog say about "Kami Tenchi's" omnipotence? Is it directly stated in any manga, novel, or the production notes? I know that it was not mentioned in the OVA. Just skimming over the discussion above seems that there is a lot of interpretation is being done—which is a violation of WP:NOR—by both sides. —Farix (t | c) 21:28, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, the debate has degenerated into (or started out) about the meaning of omnipotence. No one (including Beyonder: "So again he is Nigh-Omnipotent") is disputing that canon material makes it clear that Tenchi is some type of omnipotent, which should be enough to simply state in the article that he is omnipotent. It's incredibly WP:LAME that we have to debate this, but it seems we are forced to, or else the edit warring will continue. I have tried to apply Wikipedia's definition of the various types of omnipotence to the usage of the word here. Given that there are no statements (or even implications) in the canon that Tenchi could accidentally lose his power/omnipotence, he is therefore not accidentally omnipotent, the only type where 'nigh' would apply. I do not believe the permitted non-interpretive use of WP:PRIMARY sources (i.e., the third OVA series) is WP:OR (i.e., Tenchi's omnipotence "can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge"). In any case, there are secondary sources available. See http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/114-omnipotent where Tenchi is listed as one of only four "true omnipotents" in all popular fictional universes (e.g. Star Trek, Middle Earth, Marvel, DC, Mario Brothers, Narnia, ...). VMS Mosaic (talk) 00:49, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
  • The key policies are WP:V and WP:NOR. To claim that a character is "omnipotent" or "nigh-omnipotent" when the source material does not state such is analyzing the source material. WP:NOR directly states "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." WP:V states, "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." To support the claim that Tenchi is omnipotent, you must have a reliable sources stating such. However, the wiki you pointed to is not a reliable source because it fails the criteria for a self-published source because it appears to be an open wiki and the article does not appear to be written by an established expert on the subject matter. —Farix (t | c) 02:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Direct quote from the three beings which are less in power than Tenchi: "However, we are cognizant of the fact that we are omnipotent." If you want to argue that it isn't prima facie from the source that 'omnipotent' also therefore applies to Tenchi, fine. Not a problem; the article can be changed to say that Tenchi is infinitely more powerful than the three omnipotent beings who found him. Actually, that might be the answer here. Say he is truly omnipotent without actually saying it. The first two uses of 'omnipotent' in the article already come close to saying that; only some minor rewording would be needed. VMS Mosaic (talk) 04:09, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Kami tenchi has not been stated even by the author to be omnipotent as transcending into omnipotence is a contradiction in itself

My site is all about fact and actual given information nowhere in the actual OVAs have stated kami tenchi to be omnipotent where the Chousin stated they was omnipotent,omnipresent, and omniscient now right there is a contradiction.....as they looked for a higher being right? Where a nigh-omnipotent punk'ed them making the claimed statements False as I can even say The chousin mentioned to "Z is also a potential supreme being." Meaning the entire show has no real being as in alternate OVAs where are the chousin? Or kami tenchi? So it basically a entire show of given hyperbole. Beyonder (talk) 02:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)BeyonderGod

Your own personal opinions from your own personal wiki are irrelevant to Wikipedia. Z was no threat whatsoever to the Choushin, just a result of Tokimi's experiments. He could generate 5 lighthawk wings, that is all, whereas Tenchi and the Choushin have no upper limit, but 10 wings is the greatest amount that all of 4-dimensional spacetime can support before collapsing. The Choushin created all of existence, and completely transcend all dimensional boundaries. They clearly qualify for being omnipotent as Wikipedia defines the term, whereas Tenchi, who is stated to be as omnipotent compared to them as they would be compared to you or any other human mortal, clearly qualifies as absolutely omnipotent. The Counter-Actor could only inconvenience their lower-dimensional shadows. Also, to quote the Talk page of the user VMS Mosaic (if he objects, he should feel free to please remove the following quotes):
"What proof from the canon do you have that he is not "omnipotent" as opposed to "nign-omnipotent"? There is absolutely nothing at all in the canon that indicates he has any limitations of any nature what-so-ever. You are the one who must prove "near" or "nigh-". Please quote exact passages showing limitations. I have already read all of your comments, none of which show any limitations other than your own personal opinion that he has limitations. Canon clearly states he is infinitely more powerful than the omnipotent beings who created all of existence, and that he has the power to end all existence. It's not possible to be more omnipotent than that. Please don't say anything about Beyonder because he does not exist in regard to this discussion. Also, would both of you please learn to use ':' to indent comments." VMS Mosaic (talk) 05:42, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
"I am trying to be reasonable, but you keep stating unrelated nonsense which makes it hard. What little I can make out from the above is pure WP:OR which has no meaning in this discussion or the article. The facts from the 'Tenchi canon' (i.e., not Wikipedia facts) state the three goddesses are omnipotent (as stated by them) and that Kami Tenchi is infinitely more powerful than the three goddesses. THOSE ARE THE FACTS which have already been scanned into the various discussions here. How many more times do you want them scanned in? Please quit talking about "marvelverses" and "Beyonder" because they are completely meaningless/irrelevant in this discussion. What you consider to be omnipotent has absolutely no meaning here. The only thing that has meaning is what is actually stated in the Tenchi OVA, PERIOD. Please stop talking about your own personal opinions. They mean nothing here." VMS Mosaic (talk) 03:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
I strongly agree with all of his above statements. David A (talk) 07:26, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Yet you JUST posted a wannabe wiki like mine into this discussion so don't say my own personal ANYTHING it is relevant as you posted the link also David A I strongly disagree I haven't seen author statements or any proof to the claims given dont POST Wikipedia content actually post the Scans from the OVAs as I countered all the given statements already and also PERIOD the claims you made like Farix is against the Wikipedia until YOU can actual show prove and acutal primary source this discussion has proven me in the clear right until I get

  • Author statements
  • OVa proof

I clearly won to put him near or nigh omnipotent because like you guys say different levels of infinity? And plus the fact he had a human vessel clearly shows he has limitations to his claimed power by fans and as I can tell nither Mosaic/David provided any evidence and as Farix stated the claims mentioned by the 2 people are irrelevant,speculation, and assumptions based by fans not actual proof so PERIOD Kami Tenchi is NIGH/NEAR Omnipotent. Beyonder (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2015 (UTC)BeyonderGod

I have posted scans/proof above, whereas you have consistently only posted biased opinions. You haven't "won" anything (as if this was a competition rather than a discussion). It is up to you to prove that Kami Tenchi has any limitations whatsoever. Also, I did not post any links to personal opinion wikis, but to Wikipedia itself. Nowhere is it stated that the entity in question needs a human host to survive, and it doesn't make any sense. Why would a boundlessly higher-dimensional entity be affected by what happens to a comparatively far less than infinitely tiny 4-dimensional shadow? David A (talk) 08:33, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Not being biased being accurate/factual also YOU POSTED PEOPLE MADE WORK not actual proof to anything like I said that isn't proof to anything unless you have

  • Author statements
  • OVA Proof

All the scans you proved was dimensional level scans....and Etc nothing placing him above a few cosmic entities in the general fictional genre and also you say I ignore anything you ignore the statements I posted out

  • He needed a HUMAN vessel to awaken

If he was so all powerful Antvasima then why didn't he exist before existence? Where is it stated HE created the chousin? Where is is stated HE was omnipotent? Nowhere until you actually post scans I wont say anything as Ferix even agreed this is fan speculations/assumptions. Beyonder (talk) 08:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)BeyonderGod

Again, nowhere in the OVA is it stated that "Kami Tenchi" needed Tenchi Masaki for anything.
And as was clearly stated by the Choushin themselves in one of the scans that I provided above, they were part of this entity's experiment, just as all of existence was part of their experiment.
I have already explained to you how higher dimensions work with infinity in projective geometry over and over. You saying "it is just dimensional" over and over doesn't make any logical sense.
Also, all of your opinions have no validations whatsoever to back them up, whereas mine do. Your opinions are objectively far more "fan speculation/assumptions". The entity has clearly been stated as the absolute supreme being of the entire Tenchi Muyo continuity. The burden of proof lies on yourself, not on me. As far as I understand,
As far as I understand, Farix simply suggested that we should avoid any statements whatsoever regarding whether the character is omnipotent or "near" omnipotent. He is not on your "side", and he was given the sensible reply that canon does support stating that the entity is more than infinitely superior to beings that have been stated as omnipotent by canon. It would be NPOV to state thus within the article. David A (talk) 09:10, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The feats kami tenchi shown isn't on levels of other true omnipotent beings also it was stated in the OVA where he was about to awaken that Masaki needed enough strength so he can full awaken also OMNIPOTENT BY CANON?? What does that mean it means nothing without primary source the creator of the series hasn't claimed such fan speculations/assumption's and Farix is right we should avoid statement's toward a character with such little feats as omnipotent I mean what was his biggest feat that about.....40 characters have done even the narrator from space dandy did thinks able to erase the "Omniverse" and recreate and tell the story of dandy is he omnipotent?.....no but yet his feats are more impressive then kami tenchi by far I am sorry until I get official sources he is nigh-omnipotent also Antvasima you said you explained how higher dimensions work?// sorry different verse different meanings right? So anything you tried to explain is irrelevant like Masoic stated and if kami tenchi was a mere experiments then kami tenchi being omnipotent is a HUGE Contradiction in itself YOU CANT CREATE A OMNIPOTENT that's a contradiction in your own words that's like say God created God and tested for who is higher see how that sounds? In general this discussion proves the entire continuity is a retcon.Beyonder (talk) 09:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC)BeyonderGod

No, if higher-dimensional geometry is used, then the mathematical foundation is definitely extremely valid. Kami Tenchi hasn't appeared much, and is of such an extreme scale that even his untrained lower-dimensional shadow almost automatically destroyed an infinite amount of universes and far more impressively all the higher dimensions, and even the hyperdimension itself. He is also stated to be absolutely supreme within his continuity. As far as the Wikipedia definition of omnipotence is concerned (which is the only one relevant to this topic), he definitely qualifies as omnipotent, especially as you have utterly failed to prove that he has any limitations whatsoever. Characters from other continuities are irrelevant to this discussion.
In any case, I have let you have your way on the Beyonder page. Can't you really just let this go, so we never have to deal with each other again? Or have you just been doing this on every forum and wiki that you frequent for half a year to deliberately relentlessly try to piss me and other people off, and evoke hurt feelings, as you have stated elsewhere? David A (talk) 09:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

If you feel butthurt/trolling that's you I want fact but whatever many people told you the same things and you fail to realize the truth you ask me for prove right? I posted them right? Why cant I get the sources I request? But whatever don't cause a debate with me then antvasima many people can tell you I am a person who wants facts then given statements then if we go by that then The living tribunal is omnipotent? Majin buu is omnipotent? And Odin is omnipotent? Right but you can keep this as I proved Beyonders status no problem but ima allow you to assume kami tenchi is omnipotent so don't say I am trying to do anything if I wanted to piss you off antvasima ill get my friends to do it I dont like pissing people off all I want is a legitimate source so last words: Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you can assume its one person you know. Beyonder (talk) 09:49, 1 January 2015 (UTC)BeyonderGod

Okay. So if I understand the above correct you have agreed to leave this page alone, and we both do our best to avoid each other in the future? That is a very acceptable solution to me. Thank you. David A (talk) 10:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

It's whatever man other people will say the same evidence I have so have fun while it latest. Beyonder (talk) 10:09, 1 January 2015 (UTC)BeyonderGod

Well, as long as you don't tell them to come here, disagreements are perfectly acceptable to me. Goodbye then. David A (talk) 10:11, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

What does a verifiable 3rd source call Tenchi in this case? Because if this is just speculation on your part then it doesn't really matter which term you use since it's Original Research on your part and needs to be removed. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 16:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that there are no 3rd party sources about this available in English. There is an interview book in Japanese called "Tenchi Muyo: 101 Questions & Answers" (I believe), and several Tenchi Muyo novels and doujinshi by the original creator Masaki Kajishima, but for English-speaking fans the main thing that we have to go on for anything whatsoever are the statements within the anime episodes themselves. As I linked to in screencaptures above, it is stated outright that the entity in question is as omnipotent compared to the Choushin, who in turn are stated as beyond all dimensional scale and to have created all of 22-dimensional existence, as they are compared to ordinary mortals. It is by no means taken from thin air, and no different from any other valid summarised information from the anime series on the page. I suppose that we could start inserting references to all the various episodes that the statements are taken from, but it would be quite a massive task. David A (talk) 18:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
But the whole point of being an editor is presenting 3rd party sources, otherwise what you are presenting is OR. While I appreciate the frustration of having to follow these rules, it's also true that anyone can start their own wiki and put in it whatever they want. However for Wikipedia you have to cite your sources or it gets removed. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 19:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
For serious articles I would agree with you, and I have read, summarised, and referenced research papers in some Wikipedia pages, but this entertainment character page is a result of compressing several character articles for that very reason. As I understand the regulations are less strict for brief fictional character listings. Also, even most, for western viewers, far more easily cited American comicbook pages almost exclusively use 1st level direct references to the comics wherein something happened in question. Basically, I don't see why this page in particular should be singled out for deletion according to your viewpoint, as it is nothing out of the ordinary. I was planning to do a bit of a rewrite, as I had previously worded some things poorly or in a repetitive manner however. David A (talk) 19:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
I appreciate the work that you have done and certainly do not want to see anything deleted. Unfortunately since I don't have access to any 3rd party sources myself I can't help, and yet my concern for this page remains, that because it doesn't have any citations it could be deleted. Perhaps, as you point out, because regulations are less strict for fictional characters, I'm worrying for nothing. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
No problem. It is always nice to talk with reasonable individuals. David A (talk) 20:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removing Fan References[edit]

While I understand that a basic summary of a series' character(s) doesn't need to be cited, per se, this article seems to be abusing the good will of its readers. All of the information in this article is uncited; of the three references two lead to dead-links and the third is a personal blog that does not meet Wiki's Citing sources guidelines. A large portion of this information appears to be either OR or fan speculation. Indeed, references to "fan" opinions appear 7 times:

The fans have dubbed ...
Sasami has a huge fanbase ...
most non-Japanese fans ...
as what fans describe as a ...
after gaining a fan-base ...
In spite of gaining a small measure of popularity in Tenchi fandom ...
he is also called Kagato Jurai by fans ...

All these character details would fit perfectly in with someone's personal Tenchi wiki, but none of this belongs here without citation from a verifiable 3rd party source. I would like to think that whoever put this much work into this article would also work to make it conform to Wiki's policies and not get subject to deletion. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 15:48, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Different fans than myself have contributed the above quotes, but I take your meaning. It might be best to rewrite those segments, or to try to find where the statements originate. David A (talk) 18:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Regardless of whether the term "fan" gets used or not the issue at hand is that nothing in this article is cited. If you have access to Japanese publications that talk about how viewers reacted to different characters in the series we could work on trying to back up some of these claims presented here, but as it stands right now this is still OR.Xenomorph erotica (talk) 19:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
I do not. As I mentioned earlier, I did not write those passages, so I don't know where the quoted statements originate from. David A (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)