Talk:List of prime ministers of Charles III

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Section notation beneath each country's prime minister in comparison to Elizabeth's

Something that I should point out now is that the page in regards to Elizabeth's prime ministers list the PMs that served when Elizabeth came to power (e.g. "Louis St. Laurent was the incumbent prime minister when Elizabeth became queen.") Question though is if this should be repeated on this article as well. I feel like it might be messy since all the PMs serving Charles are currently in office. -- PanchamBro (talk • contributions) 16:54, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, would be messy. I've added a catch-all note to the header which covers this for now. --LukeSurl^t c 13:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

- That didn't last very long, now did it? I guess we've got until Friday to figure out what to do. Boris Johnson just got the hundred votes to get on the ballot. I suggest we start with by saying Liz Truss was pm at his acession, then do the same whenever a second PM takes over for the other countries. Notwisconsin (talk) 01:24, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Appointed by who?

I checked the pages Prime Minister of Australia & Prime Minister of New Zealand, just for two examples. Both pages say the governor general is the appointer, while on 'this' page (and related 'list of prime ministers of monarch' pages), we say the monarch is the appointer. So, which is it? GoodDay (talk) 04:19, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GoodDay: The monarch appoints the prime minister. I think the reason there is a difference between these articles is because in the UK, the incoming prime minister actually meets the king at Buckingham Palace whereas in Australia and New Zealand they only meet his representative. But technically it is still the monarch who appoints the prime minister in Australia, New Zealand, etc because the governor-general acts on behalf of the monarch and carries out his duties in the various Commonwealth realms. DDMS123 (talk) 18:42, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cook Islands Prime Minister

I would like to start a discussion whether the Cook Islands' Prime Minister should be added to this list.

It is the official title of the Cook Islands' head of government. While some will say that it should not be included because it is not a separate Commonwealth Realm, the Cook Islands are widely recognised as a sovereign state, albeit within the Realm of New Zealand. The Cook Islands Prime Minister is not subordinate to the NZ Prime Minister or any other PM. Rohivanion (talk) 23:24, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ineresting. For List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II we had a line in the lead defining the scope of the list. I've copied this over, with a little adaption, for this list. If the Cook Islands and Nieu were added they should also be added for Elizabeth. In List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II there is an "anomalous cases" section, which may be appropriate as this is a bit of a grey area. --LukeSurl^t c 22:19, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Legally, the monarch is styled King of New Zealand (as opposed to King of Cook Islands) and Cook Islands/Niue are constituent parts of the Realm of New Zealand. This is a similar status to that held by the Crown Dependencies vis-a-vis the United Kingdom, in that their respective heads of government are not subordinate to the prime minister of the UK but are component parts of a single realm. For this reason, I don't think the inclusion of the Cook Islands' head of government is appropriate.2A00:23C8:4383:9301:1C5F:5C5D:8E57:8307 (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@2A00:23C8:4383:9301:1C5F:5C5D:8E57:8307 I was thinking about this when I made the original point. The distinction I would draw between the Cook Islands and that of the Crown Dependencies is that the Cook Islands are generally recognised as sovereign. While the Crown Dependencies have near complete autonomy, they do not have an international personality as a sovereign state. The Cook Islands (and Niue) on the other hand, send and receive diplomatic missions, sign treaties in their own name, and are generally recognised as sovereign states by the international community. Rohivanion (talk) 23:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve undone the recent addition of these two as per the discussion above. Keeping this list to the Commonwealth Realms seems appropriate. LukeSurl^t c 11:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@LukeSurl, I couldn't see the discussion on Talk:List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II that you referred to in your edit.

I don't see how restricting the list to prime ministers of Commonwealth Realms excludes the Prime Minister of the Cook Islands. They are a prime minister within a Commonwealth Realm: the Realm of New Zealand. The Realm is not commensurate with the country of New Zealand, but includes New Zealand with the Cook Islands & Niue (and Tokelau, though the situation there is slightly different), which as @Rohivanion mentioned are independent states to which New Zealand (the country) has extended New Zealand citizenship. Now, the realm of New Zealand isn't a proper legal entity as far as I understand, but rather merely a catchall term for those countries that share the person having the title of "King/Queen of New Zealand" as their head of state.

As such, Charles in his capacity as King of New Zealand is also the head of state of the Cook Islands, and I think the prime minister of that country, as a prime minister in one the Commonwealth Realms, should also be included in this "List of prime ministers of Charles III". Similarly, for the Premier of Niue (excluding them just because of the title, even though it's really the same job, would just be semantics).

I get that the Cook Islands & Niue are a bit unique in these regards, but I don't think that's a reason to exclude them.-2405:DA40:4362:1E00:246A:DFA:AC25:5BD9 (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Apologies for my edit summaries directing you to the wrong talk page - I was editing on mobile and misremembered where the discussion was.

I think you make some good points and yes, maybe we should be including these. I'm going to implement a way of trying to show the complication here, I'll make this edit now. --LukeSurl^t c 20:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have just changed "consists of" in your edit to "comprises". At least in my background, "consists of" means that those are the only components whereas "comprises" means other components can be present. In this case, the Realm of New Zealand also contains Tokelau and claims the Ross Dependency, not mentioned, so "comprises" is more appropriate in this context.-161.29.216.215 (talk) 08:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The inclusion of non-sovereign entities has unnecessarily complicated this page. As stated above, we should now also include the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey whose constitutional status in respect of the United Kingdom is identical to that of the Cook Islands and Niue in respect of New Zealand. The one difference is that the USA has not seen a need to open a separate embassy, but Wikipedia is not intended to portray and/or project the American worldview. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C8:4380:3D01:B553:61B2:C599:ADA9 (talk) 20:12, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@2A00:23C8:4380:3D01:B553:61B2:C599:ADA9 the status of the Crown Dependencies of the Isle of Man etc is not "identical" to the Cook Islands and Niue. while the Crewn Dependencies do have near complete self government, they are not considered sovereign entities and have no independent diplomatic or treaty making powers. In contrast, the Cook Island and Niue are considered sovereign, they maintain international relations and New Zealand does not retain and legal ability to override the Cook Islands or Niue. This can be contrasted with the Crown Dependencies of the UK. Rohivanion (talk) 09:41, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]