Talk:List of things named after J. R. R. Tolkien and his works

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Comments[edit]

Thanks for starting this draft. I've also started a (very rough) draft in my sandbox on scientific names and geographic features, which I'll cleanup and verify today. Note, per WP:REDUNDANCY, it is unnecessary (and discouraged) to have "this is a list of X" anywhere in list articles. Since the scope of this list might quickly stray into the most minutest and indiscriminate of trivia (e.g. the name of a celebrity's pet or a piece of software or unofficial nicknames of non-notable things mentioned only in technical reports), guidelines on inclusion criteria might be helpful. One guideline for maintaining a relatively scholarly, practical list and avoiding/minimizing fancruft with would be to limit entries to independently notable topics and/or things that would reasonably be expected to appear in multiple, independent sources over a considerable period of time. Thus geographic elements like roads, towns, and mountains–things probable to appear in maps and atlases–are probably more appropriate than college dining halls or local one-shot events (I'm glad to see the eponymous college housing units were not transferred from J. R. R. Tolkien#Memorials). And while some popular culture content may warrant inclusion, I don't think it is necessary to include or repeat the extensive list already at Middle-earth in video games and Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings: a simple link to such articles would likely suffice. Cheers, --Animalparty! (talk) 19:01, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that the general header has become redundant to the page name. It does its job serving as a summary of what can be read further down the page (and it is a reminder to move the page to that extended name once it is ready to go). As to notability, I totally agree that we should set standards for what may be included here. Notability on it's own is surely fine but we should also try to back it up with secondary sources. For navigation, I intend to place the generic Tolkien navbox at the bottom of the page but a "See also" section would also be appropriate. De728631 (talk) 01:01, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you also for adding the Titan lists. I had no idea that there is a tolkienian naming convention for the geography of Titan. De728631 (talk) 01:04, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Additions[edit]

@De728631: I took the liberty of adding lists of taxonomic names and geographic features I've been working on. My thoughts are that it's better to keep the descriptions rather brief and non-specialized, while largely deferring more tangential details of taxonomy, distribution, and information not directly related to being named after Tolkien to the respective articles. Also, since it is established that the list is about things named after Tolkien or his fictional works, redundant info like "X is named for the fictional character appearing in Tolkien's works" can be omitted. --Animalparty! (talk) 00:10, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Animalparty: Alright, thanks a lot for the table. I agree that this is the better format to handle all the taxa instead of writing lengthy prose descriptions for each entry. I'm a bit unhappy though with all the redlinks. My fear is that this section may be seen as just the type of listcruft we should try to avoid. De728631 (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The redlinks can be addressed in a couple of ways: leaving them red can encourage article creation, per WP:REDYES (and I could make a couple stub articles pretty quickly, especially genera). Alternatively, a particularly obscure species could be piped to the genus, where it is mentioned in a list of species: thus while there is not currently an article for the species Leucothoe tolkieni, it could be be displayed as Leucothoe tolkieni. I prefer this to the third option: creating redirects from valid scientific names to genera, e.g. {{R with potential}}, which may inhibit the creation of articles that appear to exist (although by convention, many fossil species are redirect to the genus article unless or until there is enough substantial content to justify individual species). As Wikipedia is incomplete, there are countless notable subjects still lacking articles. --Animalparty! (talk) 04:22, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should go for the piping option and link the genus article where the species is mentioned. This way we could avoid re links in the table but would also provide the general information found in the genus article and encourage the creation of missing articles when anyone finds the redlinks over there. De728631 (talk) 19:53, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Piping to genus sounds good. I've got some stubs to start! --Animalparty! (talk) 22:02, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Elachista carcharota: it looks like Kaila "did it again" in 2011, this time thinking of the big bad wolf. I can't seem to find a reference for the etymology though. De728631 (talk) 19:36, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's quite possible, given the author's history. But I think in the absence of explicit acknowledgement (or at least reliable secondary sources that say "this name likely refers to X"), entries should be omitted, to stave off potential of WP:OR, no matter how likely it may seem. Similarly, I've found that some names Tolkien used were derived from Norse mythology (see e.g. Dáin and dwarves in the Völuspá), and some species are explicitly named after the Norse characters, not Tolkien's, and should be excluded. The fossil shrimp Bombur for instance, described in 1839, is clearly not Tolkien inspired. --Animalparty! (talk) 20:00, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with you. Another misleading example is Bofuria which was also named for the Norse original but is listed at the Tolkien Gateway. De728631 (talk) 20:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering about E. neithanella though. Are you sure it was named after Turgon? After all, "Neithan the Wronged" was one of the aliases of Túrin Turambar. De728631 (talk) 20:39, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake (I copied and pasted a lot of lines of code): That is probably Neithan (Túrin Turambar). Larsen lumps E. neithanella in with human characters, and states "tragic tale of Túrin is reflected in Kaila’s paper, with species named for Túrin (and his pseudonym Neithan)..." --Animalparty! (talk) 20:56, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I've added this to the list. De728631 (talk) 21:02, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You beat me to it (edit conflict) De728631 (talk) 21:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ready to go?[edit]

Now that the list of taxa has been completely referenced to at least the original publications, I think we can launch the whole page to the article namespace: List of things named after J. R. R. Tolkien and his works. The remaining redlinks may in fact be used to animate the creation of new articles. De728631 (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Category[edit]

I just created the category "Things named after Tolkien works]" based on seeing categories such as Things named after Shakespearean works. Many of the entries on this list may be worth adding?--Milowent • hasspoken 15:28, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've added the new category to a number of articles I have found that are not currently on this list, by the way.--Milowent • hasspoken 16:44, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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