Talk:Menelik II's conquests

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On 2 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Agar Maqnat. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Title

"Menelik's Expansions" is not a WP:COMMONNAME. This page needs a better WP:NDESC title. —Srnec (talk) 17:22, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Violence

Here is section from the article on Menelik II that I have lifted wholesale. This information should be in this article somewhere, but it is not clear where, given the current geographic organisation of the article.

However, in the territories incorporated by military conquest, Menelik's army carried out atrocities against civilians and combatants including torture, mass killings, and large scale slavery.^[1]^[2] Large scale atrocities were also committed against the Dizi people and the people of the Kaficho kingdom.^[3]^[4] Some estimates that the number of people killed as a result of the conquest from war, famine and atrocities go into the millions.^[1]^[5]^[6]^[7] Based on convergent colonialist approaches, cooperation between Menelik and Belgian king Leopold II were attempted more than once.^[8] LastDodo (talk) 12:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Section placed back between "national oppression" and "genocide". 212.166.30.66 (talk) 12:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b Mohammed Hassen, Conquest, Tyranny, and Ethnocide against the Oromo: A Historical Assessment of Human Rights Conditions in Ethiopia, c. 1880s–2002, Northeast African Studies Volume 9, Number 3, 2002 (New Series)
^ Mekuria Bulcha, Genocidal violence in the making of nation and state in Ethiopia, African Sociological Review
^ Alemayehu Kumsa, Power and Powerlessness in Contemporary Ethiopia, Charles University in Prague
^ Haberland, "Amharic Manuscript", pp. 241ff
^ Alemayehu Kumsa, Power and Powerlessness in Contemporary Ethiopia, Charles University in Prague p. 1122
^ Eshete Gemeda, African Egalitarian Values and Indigenous Genres: A Comparative Approach to the Functional and Contextual Studies of Oromo National Literature in a Contemporary Perspective, p. 186
^ A. K. Bulatovich Ethiopia Through Russian Eyes: Country in Transition, 1896–1898, translated by Richard Seltzer, 2000 p. 68
^ Jesman, 1959: Leopold II and Ethiopia

Name

@Magherbin Why was the name changed? محرر البوق (talk) 02:19, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you disagree it was an invasion? Only other appropriate alternative is Menelik's Wars. I just noticed someone else brought up the fact that it needs a better title on the talk page. Magherbin (talk) 04:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean to deny Menelik's atrocities, I just don't think that this is a good name for this article. There should be a RFC about a new title for this article. Same goes for Oromo Invasions. محرر البوق (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is an accurate description of the events, Menelik invaded territories that were not part of Ethiopia. I've added a source that specifically states it was an invasion although some sources also state expansion, it can thus also be added that its also known as an expansion. Magherbin (talk) 23:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure محرر البوق (talk) 00:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per WP:RMEC, RM initiated by socks can be closed earlier. Another editor should open another discussion if it’s needed. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Menelik's Invasions → Agar Maqnat – ~~Agar Maqnat is a more neutral title and currently a redirect. Would solve dispute over the naming of the page ሰይፍ (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)~~ (WP:STRIKESOCK — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 20:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Polyamorph (talk) 05:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 18:36, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Non English title isnt appropriate also 'Agar Maqnat' isnt notable. Magherbin (talk) 13:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as it's the name the conquests were historically referred to as in multiple sources and it's a WP:COMMONNAME title, which user:Srnec noted the page lacked.

~~ሰይፍ (talk) 10:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)~~ (WP:STRIKESOCK — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC))[reply]

::Hi everyone, I think 'Menelik's Expansions' or something along those lines that is simple would be the best in my opinion. It should be in English, so the lay person can get a basic idea. If you have the sources you can add the "known as Agar Maqnat" to the contents of the page, but it should not be the name of the article. Keyboard Editor (talk) 16:42, 4 November 2023 (UTC) (WP:STRIKESOCK — Reading Beans (talk) 04:06, 22 November 2023 (UTC) )[reply]

I would prefer Menelik's conquests or perhaps something else. "Invasion" needs an object, which is why the current title is clunky. I have weak support for the proposal. Srnec (talk) 16:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I have no particular opinion on this matter, so I will abstain from voting. I just have to notice that a non-English title for this article wouldn't be quite a precedent, as the example of Zemene Mesafint shows. That article could be titled "Era of Judges", "Era of the Princes," "Age of Princes" etc, but it uses a non-English title that is well-known in Ethiopian historiography. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 23:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This isnt comparable to the Zemene Mesafint which was an internal Ethiopian succession crisis, the article relates to Abyssinian invasions into other territories hence imposing a non English title would be misleading to the average reader. Ethiopian nationalists spin the narrative that this was actually a "centralization" process going as far as denying the annexation of neighboring independent states. Magherbin (talk) 04:27, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[ReferenceA-1] Mohammed Hassen, Conquest, Tyranny, and Ethnocide against the Oromo: A Historical Assessment of Human Rights Conditions in Ethiopia, c. 1880s–2002, Northeast African Studies Volume 9, Number 3, 2002 (New Series)

[2] Mekuria Bulcha, Genocidal violence in the making of nation and state in Ethiopia, African Sociological Review

[ReferenceB-3] Alemayehu Kumsa, Power and Powerlessness in Contemporary Ethiopia, Charles University in Prague

[4] Haberland, "Amharic Manuscript", pp. 241ff

[ReferenceY-5] Alemayehu Kumsa, Power and Powerlessness in Contemporary Ethiopia, Charles University in Prague p. 1122

[ReferenceZ-6] Eshete Gemeda, African Egalitarian Values and Indigenous Genres: A Comparative Approach to the Functional and Contextual Studies of Oromo National Literature in a Contemporary Perspective, p. 186

[7] A. K. Bulatovich Ethiopia Through Russian Eyes: Country in Transition, 1896–1898, translated by Richard Seltzer, 2000 p. 68

[8] Jesman, 1959: Leopold II and Ethiopia

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