Talk:Musso & Frank Grill

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Hi everyone, shouldn't be mentioned in this article that the fictional character Harry Bosch and his partners from Michael Connelly's novels (City of Bones (Michael Connelly novel)) visits recurrently this dinner place?
Sorry for my poor English.
--190.49.188.51 (talk) 02:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)Javier Stowics, Argentina

Interesting that you bring this up. I came to the Talk section to specifically question the appropriateness, without citation, of quoting directly from Michael Connelly's book Trunk_Music_(novel) in this article. Specifically, from Connelly's book: "In its heyday it had been a popular destination for Hollywood's elite." Since the book was published in 1997 – nearly 4 years before Wikipedia existed and 10 before this entry was created – there's no question as to which direction the plagiarism flowed. Gramby (talk) 05:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

While that smacks of the trite writing style used by many to describe history, and could easily have been made up by most anyone as it's barely a sentence fragment - I have re-worded it. Lexlex (talk) 04:11, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Video game/pop culture material

One third of the article about this historic, essential, Los Angeles restaurant is about movies filmed in it and appearances in video games. It is absolutely unselective and adds nothing to the reader's knowledge of the restaurant. Are we going to have a list of every movie, TV show, and video game this restaurant appears in? Because there are hundreds if not thousands. What is the point? Let us be guided by WP:POPCULTURE for the sake of the reader.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

New discussion about pop culture

I'm fine with this new material, but do you think there's any way we could not call the section that? Otherwise it's going to be a perpetual cruft-magnet with video games and all kinds of nonsense. There are a few important appearances of the place in novels as well (important as defined by being mentioned in secondary sources). Perhaps we could find a way to work this material into the history section?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok- what other titles would you suggest? I would have no problem including it in the history section and also agree with you that including video games etc. is not optimal. Ed Wood, Oceans Eleven, and Greenberg all register as culturally significant works that play a role in the restaurant's identity and I would also like to add the restaurant's presence in "What Makes Sammy Run?" by Budd Schulberg. Since the article is now longer, including this should not detract from any other material. Which other films or books would you like to include? Thanks.— Baseballtom 1:30 18 January 2014

What Makes Sammy Run is good; I didn't remember that it was in there. It's also in The Day of the Locust, which was probably planned and to some extent written in the bar there. I can't find a source for that right now, though. My main concern is that we stick to works where the presence of the restaurant is noted in secondary sources rather than using the works as primary source references for the presence of the restaurant.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be best to include both (and possibly The Big Sleep?). What Makes Sammy Run is on google books if that helps. Though secondary sources are preferable, wouldn't the primary source be sufficient here since all of these works clearly qualify as classics? Also, are there any other significant works in film/literature worth considering? — Baseballtom 4:20 18 January 2014

What worries me about using the book itself as a source is that the place is mentioned in probably hundreds of notable books, and there's no particular reason to list all of them. It might be a useful filter to use only mentions of the place that have been singled out as notable mentions via inclusion in secondary sources. That's my thinking, anyway.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:07, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Understandable but I don't think it should be a problem as long as it's clear that it isn't a comprehensive list and if any books mentioned are classics with wikipedia pages. I think it's very unlikely that many more works will be mentioned on the page in the future. For now, I think What Makes Sammy Run and The Day of the Locust should be sufficient and would be productive additions to the page. I'll add them now with citations. If anyone subsequently adds lesser known works to the page, the works can be reviewed and potentially removed. — Baseballtom 11:46 18 January 2014

Your work is good. I'm happy to see that Schulberg calls it Musso's, just like I do myself. I haven't used that as search term yet, so maybe more to come! I think between us we've really improved this article.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 05:08, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I've reintroduced an 'In popular culture' section. Cruft was gathering at the bottom of the article in any case (I've just deleted some). I don't think putting this information in the history section will stop that happening. In fact, it has already lead to duplication with the new Tarantino film being mentioned twice. Meticulo (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Unusual name

"Musso & Frank" seems like a bit of a strange choice - one man's surname and the other man's given name. You'd think it would be either "Musso & Toulet" or "Joe & Frank's." I wonder if there is some explanation for it that could be included.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I updated it with more info that clears the matter up a bit. In addition, Toulet seems to have opened the establishment with Robert Prechacq[1], who must have been some relation to his wife Helen (née Prechacq). Robert Prechacq seems also to have at least one restaurant in LA prior to this.[2] I would incorporate this into the article but there is so little to go on.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Here is some more info that could be drawn on for the history, from The Musso and Frank Grill – One of America’s Greatest and Most Historic Restaurants by Jonathon Foerstel:

Firmin "Frank" Toulet and Marie Zoe Helene Prechacq. Frank was born in Lys (possibly Saint Lys), France on 2-25-1880 (or 1879). His parents where Jean Toulet and Jeanne (either Preehaeg or Prechacq - I am almost sure was Prechacq with Preehaeg being a bad reading of handwriting - then perhaps he was distantly related to his second wife!). He came to the U.S. at New York on board the ship Normandie in July of 1896 after living in or embarking from Havre, France. He kept a pretty low profile, so information on him is sparse. It appears he first went to Boston and worked as a waiter. On January 9, 1902 he married Amy Sandberg and he was living at 5 Hersey Place in Boston. It is unknown what brought him to the West Coast, but in 1910 he was living at 1952 Stockton St. in San Francisco and working as a waiter. He married his second wife, Marie Zoe Helene

("Helen") Prechacq in New York (he seems to be going back and forth between coasts) on 11-8-1917. She was subsequently known as Helene (sometimes "Helen") Toulet. Her father Prosper (possibly nicknamed "Robert") Prechacq apparently owned several restaurants and they met when Frank worked at one of them. Both Frank and Prosper "Robert" Prechacq were original partners in Frank's Cafe (the beginning of Musso and Franks Grill) which opened on September 27, 1919 (a fact recently rediscovered for the world by your not so humble author). Helene's role is apparently almost forgotten. She was born on 10-13-1893 in New York, New York (and she apparently lost her U.S. citizenship when she 1narried Firmin - originally a French citizen - as was the strange law back then - she had to naturalize to get her citizenship back!). According to Gregory Paul Williams in his definitive book on Hollywood "The Story of Hollywood", Helen was admiring Charlie Chaplin's costume one day when he came in, which consisted of a Pana1na hat and a fake mustache, Chaplin promptly gave them to her. At one point the couple lived at 202 West 31st in Los Angeles. In 1920, just after opening Frank Cafe's, Frank and Helene where living at 6685 Hollywood Blvd. as lodgers. Helene worked as the cashier at the ti1ne. Frank cashed in his interest in Musso's in 1927. Frank once bragged that he had shelled out over 15,000 grand in tabs or credit at the restaurant to starving actors and had only been stiffed for 200 dollars of that amount. Frank then went into obscurity. Frank died on January 1, 1941 "suddenly". He was living at 1813 West Seventy-Ninth St. at the time. He is buried at Holy Cross Cemetery. Helene died on 7-18-95 at the grand old age of one hundred and one!

Prosper (also Prospero) "Robert" Prechacq - Not much is known about this original partner in "Frank's Cafe". He was born August 6, 1868 in Lys, France (same as Firmin) and came to the U.S. on September 10, 1886, initially to New York on board the "La Champagne", where he worked at the Martin Cafe in New York. His wife Elise Prechacq maiden name Pindat was born on 4-13-1868 and died 6-12-1940. Elise's mother, Zoe Pindat, died at age 83 on lVIay 8, 1926 in Los Angeles. Zoe at one point lived at 74 Rue de Bayeux, in Caen ( Calvados) France and was probably born in Caen ( or Pau). Zoe originally caine to the U.S. at New York in 1892. She 1nade another trip from France on 1-25-08 aboard the Savoie embarking at Havre, France. On June 23, 1907 Prosper (or Robert) bought the famous and very early San Fernando Street Restaurant, Campi's right near the original Pueblo de Los Angeles plaza and Mission Church for 4000 dollars along with partner Bruno Pindat (the Pindats, sometime spelled "Pindart" where Prosper's in-laws). He may have gotten a bargain in buying Campi's as it was the center of a 1nurder mystery in 1906, when a man was shot to death due to some sort of "love triangle". Campi's served Italian and French food and had live music. The Prechacq family was also associated with the Pindat Catering Co1npany. In 1910 the Prechacq family, consisting of Prosper, his wife Elise, daughter Helen (soon to be Toulet), and sons George L. (born 12-23-1894 and died 10-2-1936 - buried in the Los Angeles National Cemetery) and Adrian E. (born 10-19- 1901 or 6-17 in New York and died March 1970) lived at 1919 Maple Ave. in Los Angeles (along with mom Zoe Pindat). So far I see no evidence that the Prechacqs were a part of Musso-Frank's when it opened in 1923 (other than perhaps Helen). In 1930, Prosper and his wife lived at 232 W. 31st Street. in Los Angeles. Elise lived at 2005 Strong Ave., Venice, California in 1939. Prosper died in April of 1938, three years before Frank Toulet. Well, I hope I got all of that right. I guess Musso and Frank's could have ended up being called Prechacq and Toulet's or Mosso and Carissimi's, Prosper and Firmin's or Giovanni and Guiseppe's! So1nehow - Musso and Frank's seems just right. The only mystery here is when Prosper or Robert Prechacq left Frank's Cafe or Musso and Frank's. Musso and Frank's oldest roots in Los Angeles - the Campi's Restaurant owned by forgotten co-founder Prosper "Robert" Prechacq in 1907 located next to what is now known as the Plaza at Olvera Street. Note that the French and Italian roots were already being reflected. Campi's served spaghetti and ravioli, wine, liquor and cigars! It had live music. You can see a picture of it on www.lapl.org in the El Pueblo photo collection.