Talk:Nicholas Poppe

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[edit]

This article seems to contradict the WP article in some, IMO not-so-unimportant, points:

Untitled[edit]

Poppe did not flee to Germany, he collaborated with the Wehrmacht when they occupied the place where he then resided.
He did not hide all those eight years. Instead, he worked for some SS-affiliated Institute, and post-1945 presumably lived in the western zones of occupation. Living in the western zones did not mean he was not in danger to be handed over to the Soviets some day, but I'd like to see a citation if we want to claim that he had to go underground.

I think these details are well worth mentioning in the article, even if some people may consider them a black mark on this scholar's career. Disclaimer: I don't really have an opinion on this matter.

I also think I read somewhere that among the first - and mst traumatic - childhood events Poppe remembered was the Boxer uprising. Might also be worth including, if we find a source.

His autobiographical "Reminiscences" (1983) is missing in the publications list. Yaan (talk) 00:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is true he worked for the SS, he did go into hiding in Germany to escape the soviets, and he did remember the boxer rebellion. This is all discussed in his Reminiscences. Tibetologist (talk) 18:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have only read reviews of the book, and my library does not have a copy. And I am a bit reluctant to change an article whose topic I don't know by heart without proper citations. In fact, I would like to look into the book even wthout the article, but I am not terribly inclined to do this inter-library loan stuff. What I understand is that Poppe only went to Germany after the German invasion of the Soviet Union, in fact after the Wehrmacht had occupied the town he lived in. He first collaborated with the German troops in the Caucasus and moved to Germany in 1943 (or maybe still in 1942?). Then he worked at the Wannsee Institute, which was dealing with East European(?) ethnography and affiliated with the SS, until 1945. This is IMO not really going into hiding. It may be collaboration with what he regarded as lesser evil, or maybe lesser evil for him and his family. Several of his colleagues in Leningrad seem to have been killed in the 1937 purges, so I do not think his collaboration with the invaders was inherently immoral. But this is not what the article currently describes.

Also, it would be nice to know more about hos ethnic background. The family name sure sounds German, and there were quite a lot of ethnic Germans in the czarist empire. If he was ethnic German, that might better explain his proficiency in the language (though German was a bit more prestigous back then than now), and also his collaboration with the Germans. Regards, Yaan (talk) 18:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Poppe's family raised him speaking French. They are ethnically Germans and he stayed with a great Aunt in Germany for a while when he was hiding from the Soviets. Your information is all correct. When I said that he had hid from the Soveitys I meant after the German loss. He stayed mostly in American controlled territory, and strictly avoided Soviety controlled territory. For two or three yeras he was very much in hiding, including living among estonian refugees pretending to be one of them. (He spoke finnish perfectly). His memoirees is a great read, I strongly recommend getting it through ILL, or buying it, I think it is still in print. Tibetologist (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Poppe once told me that he had heard that he was slated for liquidation by Stalin, and that he travelled to where some members of his family were (perhaps his wife, I don't recall now), which was close to the German front lines, and when the Germans advanced, defected to them, claiming German ancestry on one side. He told me a similar account of his activities for the Germans to that which was published, saying that most of his work was harmless and that he tried, with some success, to protect groups which were religiously Jewish, but ethnically non-Jewish. My recollection is of a man who was always kind, affable, and gentlemanly. Unfortunately this is no evidence one way or another, as the same could be said of some of the worst war criminals by their acquaintances. Nor would the threat of liquidation by the Soviet government be seen by those who suffered from the Nazi regime and its crimes to justify collaboration with the wartime Germans. Unfortunately, we may never know the truth.Mongolch erdemten (talk) 22:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We can state what he wrote in his reminiscences, though (with attribution). But I have not read the book yet. Yaan (talk) 11:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi collaboration[edit]

Someone recently deleted the link to category:Nazi collaborators for the reason that this would be to heavy a charge. My understanding is that a collaborator is someone who works for an enemy occupying power, not necessarily a war criminal.

If Poppe had been from the Baltic countries or a former emigrant, I think a case could be made that the Soviet Union was not 'his' country. But Poppe was a member of the Soviet Union's academic establishment and, I believe, already well-known in his field even before the war. And I think it is beyond doubt that he worked for the Germans as interpreter and later in an (pseudo-?)academic institution. Yaan (talk) 09:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One needs more info, and it is sorely lacking, along with sources. Someone just working in German scientific institutions does not necessarily mean a collaboration with Nazi. Consider someone like Nikolay Timofeev-Ressovsky. He did not collaborate with Nazi. My very best wishes (talk) 20:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]