Talk:Oberlin Academy

This article was nominated for deletion on 3 February 2019. The result of the discussion was keep.

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 2 February 2019 by reviewer Legacypac (talk · contribs).

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Notability

School shut over 100 years ago and was connected to a notable college. A whole bunch of notable students. No harm in having a page for this. Legacypac (talk) 20:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If this school existed today there is no question that it would be notable. However given what are likely to be limited secondary sources perhaps it belongs in the Oberlin College article as Justlettersandnumbers attempted to do rather than as an independent article. If someone were to one day more exhaustively cover the article, perhaps by going through the archives, we could reverse the decision. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:20, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There might be a case to merge, but WP:SPINOUT should also be considered. Legacypac (talk) 02:44, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It can't be a case for WP:SPINOUT because the sources apparently do not exist to support an independent article: if it's as notable as Legacypac claims, where are the sources? This doesn't pass any subject-specific criterion that would exempt it from WP:GNG, and it certainly doesn't pass WP:GNG. Two different AfC reviewers declined the article on the basis that it didn't, in its current state, meet notability criteria, a third uninvolved person redirected the article on the basis that it wasn't notable, and a fourth user has supported that decision here. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:53, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We're now at five different users who have resolved that this article doesn't meet notability criteria. It only ever made it out of AfC because after being twice declined in less than twelve hours because Legacypac, by his own admission, automatically accepts any articles by this creator regardless of notability. If you want to persist without making changes to the draft text that went to AfC, this article is headed straight to AfD and can be dealt with on a permanent basis. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:57, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't automatically accept any article - don't lie/deliberately misrepresent me - but I have found the creator has a very good track record at understanding notability. This is a notable topic, we have countless secondary school articles that are on schools with a lot less notablity. Legacypac (talk) 03:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you think it's a notable topic, even though the article in its present state doesn't pass any subject-specific guidelines that would exempt it from WP:GNG and doesn't pass WP:GNG you are very welcome to find the sources the nominator couldn't be bothered adding in this case, and then we've got no need to argue about this any further. That would be just as good an outcome. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:11, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The prep school was founded the same year as the college in 1833 and "In 1835 Oberlin became one of the first colleges in the United States to admit African-Americans, and the first to admit women in 1837". Similar policies appear to be in place at the prep school which makes it darn important to African American history. How about we give this page a little time to develop further. Who or what is harmed by having a page on an historic school? Legacypac (talk) 03:18, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It might be important - but you can only say "appear to be" because the sources either don't exist or the nominator didn't bother to research them, so we can't say anything much about it. It just doesn't meet notability criteria in its present state - it may very well be that it could with further research (that is the case with many articles that fail notability), but that's all the more reason to do the research rather than (as I've now had to do) force the matter to AfD to make a permanent decision. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:26, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If we're talking SPINOUT, I would suggest African-Americans at Oberlin College would do a better job of spinning out a chunk of information on the current article and could encompass this topic. By the criteria we use for judging high schools if this high school were open today with this level of sourcing, which let's be clear includes quite a few clearly notable alum, this would be a slam dunk notable topic and is never going to get deleted at AfD. The fact that it's historical means further sourcing is going to be harder to come by than a contemporary article but this doesn't change the notability of this topic. It is, clearly and indisputably by current Wikipedia standards, notable in my mind. However, that does not mean that a separate article is the best way to serve our readers this information. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC) I'm going to be copy a portion of this over to the AfD but wanted it preserved in this history as well[reply]

Do the sources exist for it as a solution to the current article? There is obviously sourcing on African-Americans at Oberlin College and it's I would assume a notable topic, but there is no sourcing that I can see on African-Americans at Oberlin Academy Preparatory School (and your comment below suggest that it's not considered to be notable in the broader history of that topic), making it a strange choice for a merge topic. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:25, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 17:21, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oberlin Academy Preparatory School → Oberlin Academy – There majority of sources seem to refer to it as simply Oberlin Academy, most prominently the college itself. This longer name seems to only be present in Lewis' writing. Examples of other places that refer to it by this name include [1] [2] Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 3 February 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 15:15, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oberlin Academy is at least the short name. Should be ok. Legacypac (talk) 01:31, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Oberlin College. This isn't independently notable, and any content that can be properly sourced can be placed at the college article. I have no opinion on what we should call the redirect. Bradv🍁 02:53, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is at AfD now, which is a better place for the discussion. This RM should probably be closed until the AfD concludes. Bradv🍁 18:26, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article should still be moved if needed, even if merged since the categories should remain per Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment No, we don't move articles during a deletion discussion. Barkeep49, I expect you are right about the title, but would you perhaps withdraw this request until after the deletion discussion has closed? If the outcome is merge or redirect (as at the moment seems quite likely), then redirects should in any case be created from both titles, and any others that have been used over the years. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mean we're clearly not going to move it while there is an AfD. Even as a merge and redirect I hold out hope that sourcing might develop in the future so the name matters. I'm not too hung up on the method we settle on the name and would suggest we just not close this discussion until after the AfD but don't feel strongly about that. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:10, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse rename. As noted above, hold off on that until the AfD is closed. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:06, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse rename it's likely the common name anyway. Legacypac (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sources

Records held here by a Historical Society [3] Legacypac (talk) 04:11, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This book [4]dealswith history of the school but I can't read it very well on mobile. Legacypac (talk) 04:16, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are two mentions neither of which are substantial. If anything it makes me think a merge is a better idea as even in a book on African Americans at Oberlin it gets scant coverage. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

College Affiliation

Source like this suggest that the college was appointing faculty it was not merely affiliated with but rather run by the college. This is also seemingly backed up by the college archives description, and the Oberlin High history who notes the Oberlin College board dissolved the academy. Since this article will likely either be kept or merged this distinction is important and so It was long affiliated with Oberlin College in the LEAD should be made accurate to It was run by Oberlin College. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:45, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@FloridaArmy: You've been active on the page so pinging you to this discussion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:10, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As our research has expanded the page I'm now understanding that the high school predates the college and that the college grew out of it when the school got permission to offer college courses. The high school continued as a department of the college then was spun out as a seperate institution. Ownership and control appears to have remained with the college board, which makes sense given how it started. Eventually the college closed the high school operation down. This unusual history contributes to the variety of names the school used. Legacypac (talk) 16:48, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Booker T. Washington

Booker T. Washington, who had close ties to Oberlin College and hired teachers from the school at Tuskegee Institute, sent his son Ernst to Oberlin Academy in 1904 and 1905.<ref name=":0">Baumann, Roland M. (July 31, 2014). "Constructing Black Education at Oberlin College: A Documentary History". Ohio University Press. See "Introduction: Oberlin -- A College and a Cause" – via Google Books. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)</ref FloridaArmy (talk) 08:24, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unclear on why you posted that here. I cut that sentence from the article because it didn't add anything important to the story of the school. -- RoySmith (talk) 12:45, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]