Talk:Operation Flipper

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This page's account of who shot whom differs from Geoffrey_Keyes_(VC) - I could not find a source to settle the matter... Anyone ? --Jean-Marc Liotier (talk) 12:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

What is it exactly that you think is inconsistent? SpinningSpark 11:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

• Only the Keyes page mentions that Keyes was hit by friendly fire. The VC citation does not mention that.
• The Operation Flipper page mentions that "Keyes was shot. He was taken outside and attended to, but quickly died" but the VC citation says that he led the assault inside the house.

Operation Flipper:

"The soldier who opened the door was set upon by Keyes and Campbell, but Campbell had to shoot him. The noise alerted the other German occupants to their presence, fighting broke out, and Keyes was shot. He was taken outside and attended to, but quickly died. Capt. Campbell was then shot in the leg by one of his own men when he ventured around a corner, having previously given his private orders to shoot on sight"

Keyes:

"Keyes tried to gain entry to the house but was confronted by a sentry. His fellow Commando Captain Robin Campbell fired several rounds at the sentry, one of which probably hit Keyes and led to his death a few minutes later"

VC citation:

"Unfortunately, when the door was opened, it was found impossible to overcome the sentry silently, and it was necessary to shoot him. The noise of the shot naturally aroused the inmates of the house and Lieutenant-Colonel Keyes, appreciating that speed was now of the utmost importance, posted the N.C.O. at the foot of the stairs to prevent interference from the floor above.

Lieutenant-Colonel Keyes, who instinctively took the lead, emptied his revolver with great success into the first room and was followed by the other officer who threw a grenade.

Lieutenant-Colonel Keyes with great daring then entered the second room on the ground floor but was shot almost immediately on flinging open the door and fell back into the passage mortally wounded. On being carried outside by his companions he died within a few minutes"

--Jean-Marc Liotier (talk) 14:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

After looking at Keyes' article I marked the passage "citation needed" after your first post. Sorry for not posting back here. It seems this is all that is left of a now largely deleted edit alleging a British cover up of the incident. It was never cited properly, being attributed to the claims of an ex-SAS soldier broadcast on National Geographic. I think we should remove the claim in the Keyes article if it is not cited soon, it is probably an oversight that it got left in the article. SpinningSpark 14:50, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I'll leave the follow-up to you then ! --Jean-Marc Liotier (talk) 12:32, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I've now removed the claim since it has now been several weeks. It can always be put back in if someone comes up with a proper source that Campbell did, or might have, shot him. SpinningSpark 18:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Heinz Schleusener: Some enlightenment for ignorant british braggarts

I don't know about your famed "sources", but maybe you should try something else than "Biggles" and the autobiography of Nigel Farage.

First of all, anybody seriously interested in military history should know that there can never be more than two generals on the staff of a Panzergruppe, the Kommandierende General and his Chef des Stabes. The Quartiermeister or Ib is always a Stabsoffizier of lesser rank. And now to the particular person:

Heinz Schleusener

born 7 April 1902

1 September 1934 Hauptmann i.G.

1938-1939 Ia im Generalstab des IV. Armeekorps

5 November 1939 Quartiermeister 2 im Generalstab der 18. Armee

1940 Major i.G. and Quartiermeister 1 im Generalstab der 18. Armee

8 October 1940 Lehroffizier für Nachschub und Versorgung bei den Generalstabslehrgängen in Dresden

1941 Quartiermeister (Ib) des Deutschen Afrikakorps

1 September 1941 Oberquartiermeister (Ib) der Panzergruppe Afrika

Oberstleutnant i.G.

1 January 1943 Oberst i.G. and Chef des Stabes des LIX. Armeekorps

lived in Hildesheim after the war

20 December 1967 Bundesverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse

Sources (just a few):

Wolfgang Keilig, Das deutsche Heer 1939-1945. Gliederung, Einsatz, Stellenbesetzung, Bad Nauheim 1956

Hans-Henning Podzun, Das deutsche Heer 1939. Gliederung, Standorte, Stellenbesetzung und Verzeichnis sämtlicher Offiziere am 3.1. 1939, Bad Nauheim 1953

Günter Wegner, Stellenbesetzung der deutschen Heere 1815-1939, Osnabrück 1990-1996

For those too lazy or dumb to learn foreign languages, try Jean Paul Pallud: Raid on Rommel's Headquarters, in: After the Battle No. 153, Old Harlow 2011. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.246.240.89 (talk) 10:09, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Please desist with the insulting tone. I doubt that anyone is trying to push a POV here, we are all in favour of accuracy. The source in the article is not Biggles, as you can easily confirm yourself, it is a book by Terry Brighton and unequivocally refers to Schleusener as General]. Brighton appears to be a respected writer on military history. I've searched for your sources but cannot find anything in them to verify your claim. The Keilig source does not get hits for Quartiermeister, Oberquartiermeister, or Heinz Schleusener. There is a result for Schleusener but nothing relevant. Podzun's book does not have preview and Wegner has no results for Schleusener. After the Battle is not available on gbooks. Perhaps you would care to provide some exact quotes and also explain why your favoured sources are more reliable than the one the article is currently taken from. SpinningSpark 14:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Anybody with a little more brain than BoJo would also have noticed that there were no German generals who were younger than 40 years in 1941. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E2:3709:F871:2189:E24D:67B9:F31 (talk) 21:54, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Reconnaissance

I don't want to attempt to add to a subject I know little about. I suspect there's still a lot of closed files on this subject but Sir Thomas Macpherson's obituary says he carried out reconnaissance of the beach. Please feel free to include if its useful. JRPG (talk) 14:25, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits

[1] see here for isbn 13sKeith-264 (talk) 16:54, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Added pic, happy for a better one to be substituted. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:55, 6 March 2018 (UTC)