Talk:Orange Order

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Biased source[edit]

Mabuska, why do you describe William Richardson's clearly partisan account as "a detailed analysis"? Strong smell of POV off that one. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Mabuska? Gob Lofa (talk) 13:20, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

See page 224 of source. Wording used by author of book. Information I add to Wikipedia is actually backed up by the sources attributed to them. It is hardly a biased description either. Mabuska (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
"Backed up" isn't the phrase I'd use. It's definitely biased to describe such a partisan account in these terms. Putting your source's POV into Wikipedia's voice violates NPOV and can't stand. Gob Lofa (talk) 18:27, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
If you really believe that Dr. Jonathan Bardon OBE, graduate of Trinity College Dublin and Queen's University Belfast is biased and that his critically acclaimed work "A History of Ulster" is likewise then by all means go on ahead to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and try to convince them as to why he is biased. Good luck. Clearly you have never read the source your forming such anti opinions on. Mabuska (talk) 22:08, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Mabuska, your text reads: "Dr. William Richardson stated in a detailed analysis of the situation in 1797:". If the detailed analysis is Bardon's and not Richardson's, why do you ascribe it to Richardson? And why would Bardon write in 18th century English? Gob Lofa (talk) 19:17, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
You obviously understood the context and to whom what is attributed to no problem in your last comment so this suddenly playing dumb fools no-one. Either find a real complaint or stop wasting other editors time and good faith. Mabuska (talk) 22:53, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
What context are you talking about? Why won't you answer my questions? Gob Lofa (talk) 21:47, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Because the question does not merit answering in this case as it is simply wilful convultion by yourself in an attempt to provoke. If you are so sure there is a problem with it open a RfC for more input. Mabuska (talk) 11:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I would contend that Richardson's account is not a detailed analysis but a partisan account written by a participant in the events concerned. Your edit does the article a disservice by implying otherwise. Gob Lofa (talk) 13:36, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Thankfully Wikipedia doesn't work with baseless speculation and original research but verifiable and reliable sources. If you have a problem with historian Dr. Jonathan Bardon OBE's use of the words "detailed anaylsis" to describe Dr. Richardson's account then by all means as already stated take it to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and see if you can prove he is "biased" and "POV". Mabuska (talk) 19:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I do have a problem with it, but I reckon we can sort it here by showing that "detailed analysis" is Bardon's choice of words and not one you've chosen to put in Wikipedia's voice. Gob Lofa (talk) 19:25, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
And the merry-go-round starts again... I refer you to my first comment in this discussion. Case closed. Mabuska (talk) 09:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Great, then I'll make that change. Gob Lofa (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no change to make as what is in the article is backed up by the source despite your unsourced speculation and personal analysis. Mabuska (talk) 11:48, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
I thought we were agreed; I'll simply mention that it's Bardon's description of the account, as backed up by the source. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:02, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────You didn't make yourself clear. I assumed you meant provide where in the source was the wording used. If it is something that is fringe and controversial I would agree to stating who is using "detailed analysis", however you have provided no evidence that it is a fringe viewpoint or even controversial. Even if Dr. Richardson was biased or involved—which no evidence has been provided by yourself only speculation and OR so your argument doesn't have any support—that doesn't mean that he can't give a detailed analysis of the situation. So unless you provide evidence to back up your assertions there is no change to be made. Mabuska (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

In fact it doesn't matter if you do eventually provide evidence as I've re-worked the entire section, unless you are going to complain about the exact same quote at Armagh disturbances which you edited in July and never made any comment about it. Mabuska (talk) 19:56, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
See you there. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:08, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
So fanning out your combative behaviour in attempt to keep things stirring? Mabuska (talk) 17:04, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Remember what I said about irony. Gob Lofa (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Confusing comment[edit]

Mabuska, you re-inserted this part of a comment: "[not] the relaxation of the popery laws but the pretence." Do you know what this means, in the context of the rest of the quote? I certainly don't and I fear other readers may be in the same position. Gob Lofa (talk) 21:43, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Considering no-one has complained about it since it was added over three years ago and the obvious reasons why you are, don't take offense when I say that I'm not convinced of the sincerity of your concerns and see this as just another attempt at baiting by nit-picking. Like over three years and no-one has raised the issue of not understanding it.
If another editor wants to come forth to confirm an issue with it, then there is something to disucss, though to indulge you the sentence is part of a direct quote and is directly connected to the preceding sentence by the colon denoting an expansion/explanation. Would be silly to not supply that expansion/explanation, which is directly related to the quote and to the sectarian tension stated in the prose paragraph before the quote, which also ties to the quote by a colon. Mabuska (talk) 22:31, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Can you tell me what it means? Gob Lofa (talk) 19:11, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
It's pretty clear what it means and it's obvious regardless of what period the English style Richardson used. If you can't understand it then open a RfC and seek more input from other editors and see if they find it how you describe. Mabuska (talk) 22:56, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Will you tell me what it means? It'd save you having to do it at an RfC, and save us both time and effort. Gob Lofa (talk) 21:20, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure you understand my position. I've no problem with most of the quote; I understand it perfectly and I see its relevance to the article. It's just the last part I simply can't understand. If you believe it adds something that the rest of the quote hasn't already done, will you tell me what this is? Gob Lofa (talk) 11:00, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
As already stated open a RfC. The quote is quite clear in what it is saying. Mabuska (talk) 11:58, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Most of it, yes. But what is "pretence" referring to? Gob Lofa (talk) 13:29, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
The pretence of the relaxation of the popery laws. Though in all honesty, whilst I added most of that section to the article, it doesn't actually involve or affect the Orange Order directly and as it is already detailed in another article (the same quote by Dr. Richardson and everything - ironically at an article you have edited but never complained about it there) that is highly relevant to, I could condense it down to a brief overview linked to the other article. Mabuska (talk) 19:10, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Done. Mabuska (talk) 19:58, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Not much irony, as I've only got around to editing that article's lede. When you say "popery laws", do you mean the Penal Laws? Gob Lofa (talk) 11:53, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
The official term used for them is popery laws. Penal laws is a neologism that was not used at the time. Mabuska (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Really? Even those that applied to Dissenters? Gob Lofa (talk) 00:46, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Apprentice Boys of Derry[edit]

Is there any reason that they are not listed in the 'See Also' section? It would seem appropriate to me.

1RR violation[edit]

Snowded, that looks like another 1RR violation you've chalked up. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:16, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Britain's foe[edit]

Snowded, I believe the UVF's source for its weaponry warrants a mention, given the international context. Gob Lofa (talk) 13:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The source is there, it says Germany. Adding the foe clause is unnecessary. The second change to Republic is OK by me however ----Snowded TALK 13:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I believe it's necessary to give the context of the political situation in Europe by referencing Germany's and the UK's enmity. Otherwise, there's no explanation for why the weapons weren't just as easily sourced in closer countries (that had friendly relations with the UK) such as France and the Low Countries. 'Foe' may be a little dramatic; I'm happy to accept alternate wording. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:07, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Well in April 1914 war had not been declared nor was it certain but there was tension etc. If there was a source that said Germany had supplied as part of growing tension, imperial rivalry etc. then I could see that adding value. Maybe 'rival' or 'imperial rival' or something like that? Mind you I half remembered an article from History Today so hunted it down here that would not really support any statement of hostility until July 1914 at least. ----Snowded TALK 15:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
That article presents a rosier picture than most of my reading on the subject. Many of the examples of amity given, such as the signal after the Kiel review, come across as diplomatically superficial and I reckon one could find similar Soviet-German examples between the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the German invasion. I'd argue that at the time of the smuggling, Germany was regarded by most British people as the country they were most likely to go to war with in the near future; for example, see Anglo-German naval arms race, The_Riddle_of_the_Sands#Historical_context, and Entente Cordiale. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
In the build up to a war it is always open - Riddle of Sands was written as a warning to what the author perceived of as a lack of awareness of the danger of German invasion for example. There was naval rivalry for sure. Is there anything that links the arms purchase from Germany to specific rivalry or hostility? Nothing in Larne gun-running either, which references a gun runner in Hamburg with no mention of German Government involvement ----Snowded TALK 16:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure that's necessary. Almost all of the arms coming into the most restive part of the UK in 1914 were coming from the UK's greatest rival in Western Europe, despite there being arms dealers aplenty closer to home; that's not a coincidence. If Germany wanted to make it difficult for Irish militants to obtain arms in its territory, it could have done this easily. Gob Lofa (talk) 17:50, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
OK but to say anything other that they came from Germany requires a reference to support whatever is said. Foe is obviously wrong. Rival might work but I suspect that is OR but I'm OK with it ----Snowded TALK 09:58, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
'Military rival' wouldn't be OR at all; there's a whole Wikipedia article on that rivalry. Gob Lofa (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Deal, pleasure doing business with you ----Snowded TALK 21:05, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

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