Talk:Oxbow (horse)/Archive 1

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Kelley, Calumet

I think I understand the whole, Kelley, Bluegrass, Calumet thing, but business deals are not my area of expertise (ask my boss), so any clarification would be welcome. Tigerboy1966  12:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

It looks like you have it pretty much right; the land is owned by someone else, Kelley leases it. Montanabw(talk) 20:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
In other news, this plus this plus this and you bet your sweet bippy that Kelley probably actually owns the place, the "investment group" not precisely stating who owns it...but has some reason, probably tax-related, for having it tied up in a front investment trust. Montanabw(talk) 22:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Found the scuttlebutt on Kelley and Calument, added it. Another entry in the "old timers coming back" saga, first Triple Crown win for the Calumet name in 45 years. Montanabw(talk) 21:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Color of Oxbow

BTW, I would give my eyeteeth for a good full body side shot of Oxbow that shows the white flecking in his coat, you can sort of see what's going on in some photos, but I'd also kill for a shot showing the base of his tail. He could be a roan (unusual, but not impossible) but also could have rabicano genetics. Both interesting; the roan doesn't seem to make sense because I don't see roaning on his sire or dam, and it's a dominant, so you think you would. But his dam has a lot of facial white, and of weird shapes, so sabino genetics are also possible. Your thoughts? Montanabw(talk) 20:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)Here are some examples:

bay roan
"skunk tail " rabicano on a bay
Sabino genetics
Another rabicano, a chestnut
A dark bay base color roan
Oxbow was also listed as a gray/roan colt when he was sold at Keeneland (can't link pdf, just Google Tizamazing and roan). Wonder what prompted the change? Froggerlaura ribbit 16:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Probably that he didn't continue to lighten, so clearly not a gray. (Oh, and the genetically obvious: Gray is dominant, you can't get a gray unless you have a gray parent). I think the jockey club sill registers stuff as "gray/roan" grouped together?? Am I right on that? But maybe not registered as a roan because roans can be so weird too - every time they shed, you almost have a new color. TB folks, IMHO, are just crummy at color stuff; they have the sabino gene in the breed, but never register anything as a "pinto," they just describe various wild and crazy markings. (There also is a frame overo, line in TBs now, some folks wonder if someone snuck a cropout quarter horse into the gene pool but it could also have been a spontaneous mutation). I don't know if the roan homozygousity test works for TBs or just Quarter Horse lines, and I suppose race horse people don't prioritize coat color testing. If the URL is blacklisted,can we cite to it without the link? Montanabw(talk) 20:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, unless there's a sire or yearling mix-up of Bend Or proportions (there are two gray sires standing with Awesome Again), Oxbow has to be a roan or have rabicano genetics. His pedigree doesn't fit though as most of his ancestors are irrefutable bays. Froggerlaura ribbit 03:18, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Boy, a mixup would be a major thing! But I think that the Jockey Club now does or can require DNA confirmation of parentage. Rabicano can be a cropout thing, as can some types of sabino. it might thus appear to skip generations; it's weird to see this patterning, though usually rabicano concentrates on the flanks and midsection. I agree that neither of his parents' photos suggest the slightest hint of roan and you must have one gray parent to have a gray, too. Hmm. The thought plickens...  ;-) And usually a gray goes light on the head before the body... AND it sounds like he looked like this as a yearling and hasn't gotten lighter (?) which argues against gray. Anyone find a photo of him at Keenland as a yearling? Montanabw(talk) 21:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The picture here [1] shows that Oxbow is a pretty odd-looking "bay". If you want to know just how wrong TB folks can get, here's a picture of the err... roan Winning Colors [2].  Tigerboy1966  20:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

(Snorting coffee out my nose about Winning Colors) I know it's WP:OR to say there is rabicano going on there, but I bet there is rabicano going on there. Thoroughbreds basicially have so little coat color variation, and most of it (other than the cream dilution and frame overo that snuck in somewhere, and human error being what it is, a "freak mutation" just doesn't seem that plausible) is) the same set of base colors as Arabians -- no roan, but some sabino and rabicano. Montanabw(talk) 22:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, as they say, "moar": Look at this video I think Tizamazing almost certainly has sabino-y genetics, note her white chin and rather flashy white (especially for a dark bay horse). This may explain the roaning on Oxbow. Now, all of what follows here is total OR on my part, but I think we have some kind of sabino/rabicano thing going on. Let me tell you why: This is an Arabian horse I owned: File:BridlePath.jpg. She was solid dark bay when young, but at about the age of 23 or 24 she started to partially "roan out" with white hairs all over her neck. (I think she was 24 or so when this image was taken) My friends said she was just "going gray" but my vet thought some sort of genetic thing might have been at work. (FWIW, her dam was a heterozygous gray, but I doubt that matters) As seen in this image, she even developed slight flecking on the rest of her body as she aged. Though all this happened in her 20s, eEven when young, she also had a small weird white spot on her topline most of her life, and her sire, also a dark bay like her, had no markings other than a VERY white nose (indicative of Sabino genetics - one owner nicknamed him "snowball" for it) AND... (wait for it) a roaned-out body spot on his barrel (about 4" in diameter). Arabians don't carry a roan gene, but they DO carry sabino and rabicano, same as the TBs. So I guess I have seen dark bays do weird roany/sabino-y/rabicano-y things before. We ought to email this guy, who is the guru of horse coat color genetics and has helped at least one other editor I know. Bet he'd have a theory. Montanabw(talk) 00:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Follow up: Well, I did email Sponenberg, got an answer, but he didn't feel he could really say anything definitively, (noted for my coat color genetics geek benefit some reasons why Owbow didn't really quite fit any of the above) suggesting it might just be the "one off weird thing." LOL! Montanabw(talk) 17:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that although TB pedigrees are the most thoroughly researched and quoted of all horse breeds MISTAKES ARE MADE. Kalaglow, the top British horse of 1982 had to have the whole distaff side of his pedigree re-written as a result of a mix-up between two similar looking chestnut mares (he should really have been called Kalator which is significantly less cool). Tigerboy1966  23:51, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Always a LOL. I'm into Arabians, which used to trace Bedouin strain names (through the mare line), and someone did a study of mtDNA, only to find that many horses that supposedly were of the same strain, hence the same female ancestor, were NOT. Just like you sometimes see a bay registered that had two chestnut parents, or, and, um, er, oh my... I guess humans make mistakes! ha! Montanabw(talk) 03:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Race detail

Question mostly for Craiglduncan, but also anyone else: IMHO, we don't need to say "grade X, $XXX,XXX purse over X distance" for every race, we wikilink the race and that should be all we need to do (presuming that all the race articles have this info, which they should). There may be appropriate times to note this, such as a move up in class, but particularly for the Derby and Preakness, it's unnecessary and makes the article's prose more convoluted to the reader. If you don't agree, I'm not considering it a moral issue or anything, but I think the article will flow better without it. Montanabw(talk) 21:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey Montana. If you need the charts to confirm the race stats, here is the main Equibase link to all his races [3]. A chart like the one in Shackleford may also be helpful. Froggerlaura ribbit 05:01, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, please, feel free to clean up anything you see fit to clean up! If you want to do a chart (I'm useless at charts), I think that's a great idea. Montanabw(talk) 05:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

POV

"Hot", "frantic", "torrid", "stalking"... what's next? "explosive stretch drive", "eye-to-eye duel"? I thought this kind of journalese crap died out in about 2008. Tigerboy1966  22:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Craiglduncan is OK with us toning down his sportswriter prose, it's just his style. (He'd make a good sports journalist!) I've already raised it at his talk, and he's good with us helping improve what's there, so feel free to come behind me with further cleanup if I kept too much lingo. Montanabw(talk) 03:16, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Apologies for the tone of the original comment. Not or the first time I have to spend Sunday morning apologising for Saturday night.31.51.21.218 (talk) 08:55, 26 May 2013 (UTC) signing.  Tigerboy1966  08:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh dear, Tigerboy! Were you editing under the influence? Montanabw(talk) 21:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Next topic for the team

OK gang, most of you all know racing better than I do, so next question: Was it particularly unusual for this colt to have so many different jockeys for almost all his races, or is that actually pretty typical? I ask because apparently the horse is a bit difficult, has a reputation for being hard for his exercise riders to control, clearly rather tough to rate, and I'm wondering if the constant switch of riders is a factor (it is often a big deal if it happens to show horses, which is why I ask). I also ask because we have the stuff (both Craig and I put it in) about X jockeys in X races, but if that's not a big deal, then we also could toss it. Comments? Montanabw(talk) 18:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC) Follow up: FWIW, here is a source that comments on the number of races and the number of jockeys: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2013/05/20/haskin-s-preakness-recap-ox-tale.aspx. Montanabw(talk) 19:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

OK crew, need help

OK all, I've found sources for the Road to the Derby points. Now, I think, the only things still with citation needed tags are the statement that "That performance encouraged his connections, including Lukas and owner Brad Kelley, to nominate Oxbow for the Triple Crown" and the bit on "After the Rebel, Oxbow rose to a top 5 spot in most Triple Crown prep polls." Craig, I think you added this, Froggerlaura, you are good at finding this stuff, can someone help me out on these two? (We can chop if unverifiable) Montanabw(talk) 22:10, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Oxbow (horse) WP:GAN

(Moved from my talk page) Montanabw(talk) 00:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC) One of the big problems is the refs. Please undo the ALLCAPS. Try to date and retrieve date each ref. Fill in as many authors as possible.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Everyone, can we work together on this? (Froggerlaura, I think many of the allcaps are for the chart, FYI) Montanabw(talk) 00:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
OK, I've asked an editor I respect, (User:Eric Corbett) to do a copyedit and review as an outside eye and a non-horsey outside eye (though he has reviewed some other horse articles for myself and other editors). He's probably going to be rather tough on all of us, but it's my fault, I've invited him over! (grins, runs...) If we survive him, GA will be a piece of cake. Montanabw(talk) 21:37, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Just looking at the article, although well written it might be difficult for non horse racing readers to understand easily I see you have a copy editor so will put hands in the air and back away from the keyboard and the article for now.:O)(olive (talk) 23:42, 31 May 2013 (UTC))
Actually, Olive, I haven't heard from Corbett and the the other copyeditor has made a run at it. I went through again and tried to tone down the lingo a bit more. Want to take another stab at it? Feel free to put in hidden text comments on anything that makes you go "WTF does that mean?" To get this to GA, we'll need to have that done anyway... there's a line between using too much technical language and not using enough so that the article lacks credibility, but it will be good to know where the problems areas are! Thanks for stepping in! Montanabw(talk) 21:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I'll look again . There were several phrases I thought most readers might no understand. My dad loves the races... and especially the Triple Crown so I've heard a lot of the phrases myself. I've never seen hidden comments... very cool.(olive (talk) 23:06, 3 June 2013 (UTC))
Hidden comments are a great, fast way to work on an article where there is good collaboration and everyone is cooperating, as is happening here (yay!). You can just toss as stuff gets fixed. However, when editing disputes arise, they aren't a good method. Per another suggestion, I've been scratching my head about how to avoid putting the "a stallion is a boy horse" nonsense into the main article text because the horse racing terms glossaries, well, suck. I decided that endnotes are probably the best, note what I did a the word "breeze." That way, those who don't know can check the note and those who do aren't slowed down. Think that will work? Montanabw(talk) 17:39, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Eric Corbett

I generally agree with olive about the amount of racing jargon, but let me say upfront that I've never been to a horse race in my life.

Lead

  • Seems a bit short to me. I'd have thought that Oxbow has won more than a million dollars in 2013 would be worth a mention. But as we're still in 2013 I'm a bit puzzled; has the racing season ended?
    Worth expanding that he got there quite quickly, only the third horse so far this year, that's the thing. The season has not ended, and won't until the Breeder's Cup in the fall. After that, some horses go south and race during the winter. But the truth is, these articles are never "done" until the horse is retired to stud, which may be this year, next year, however long the horse stays sound and depending on ownership... so even with GA, we have to update. For example Animal Kingdom (horse) is still racing as a 5-year-old. --Montanabw
  • "" ... until a wire-to-wire victory in the Preakness". "Wire-to-wire" is a phrase I've never heard before. Does it mean from start to finish? If so, it might be easier on the non-American reader to say that.
    rephrased. Chopped the term entirely. --Montanabw
  • "... out of a full sister to another Breeder's Cup Classic winner". "Sister to" rather than "sister of" sounds really odd to me.
    Horse lingo to some extent. Horses are "out of" their dams. Therefore "of" kind of implies motherhood, not siblinghood. Does that make sense? Some phrases are "out of a full sister to ..." I don't know if "out of a full sister of" has too many occurrences of "of."??? I guess I'd say feel free to tweak that and see how it looks because I'm too close to the language to have "sister of" not look weird to me... (lol) --Montanabw

Two-year-old season

  • "Listed at 22–1 that day ..." Listed by whom? Are there no on-course bookmakers in the US offering different odds?
    I don't think so. Not sure if we need to clarify, though for wording, I'll defer to some of the other editors on this, as I'm not super-knowledgeable about gambling stuff (Froggerlaura? Craig??). But basically, there are the "official" odds at the track, listed on all subsequent history reports of the race, even though there may be other oddsmakers at other gambling venues. --Montanabw
  • "At 11–1 under jockey Jon Court ..." I'm wondering why these odds are important.
    May not be, though the pattern of moving up or moving down based on the bettors' views of his chances matter some; one of the issues with this horse is that he has kind of a quirky personality (runs up front all the time and absolutely hates to be anywhere else, fights his jockeys and exercise riders about the issue), so winning and placing in spite of chasing the early speed horses is actually pretty remarkable) just wasn't getting any respect - even after winning the Preakness he was still only third favorite for the Belmont. I'd say if you think it's overkill in the early races, I can maybe chop a little of it. --Montanabw
  • "... he broke sharply ..." What does that mean?
    Fast, he got out of the gate right away. I'll rephrase. --Montanabw
  • "... but had the lead by the first call at the quarter mile post. What does that mean? As opposed to the second call?
  • traditional lingo often seen in the racing form. For statistical purposes, the announcer "calls" the position of the horses at various points in the race. I can rephrase to note where in the race instead of "first call" - etc. --Montanabw
  • "Oxbow ran just off the pace throughout the race, despite being four horses wide around the first turn and three wide around the final turn." So the horse was four horses wide, and then three horses wide? By what magic?
    By the magic of his own four feet. (smile) I might need you to think about ways we can rephrase that, as I think we are trapped in the lingo there. It means that he was the fourth horse out from the rail and then as the race progressed, he moved in and was the third horse out from the rail. Essentially, in horse racing, the closer to the inside rail the horse is, the shorter the trip around the track, so it's not good to be "wide" - i.e. too far out. (though getting trapped on the rail can cause problems too...) --Montanabw

Early three-year-old season

  • "... he went off as a 5–1 fourth choice with a favorable four post position What's a "four post position"? Whose fourth choice?
    "Whose choice" is always the official odds paid at the track. Four post is lingo for the #4 position in the start. --Montanabw
  • "At the top of the stretch ..." The top of what stretch?
    Homestretch, I'll clarify. --Montanabw
  • "Five weeks later, Oxbow was entered in the Grade II Risen Star Stakes at mile and one sixteenth." One sixteenth of what?
  • "... and was the second choice at 4–1." Does this mean he was the second favourite?
    Yes. If that was unclear, feel free to tweak. --Montanabw
  • ... Court sent Oxbow to the lead but he tired and finished fourth." And what about Oxbow, where did he finish? And why was the horse affected by Court's tiredness?
    Rephrased. --Montanabw
  • "Stevens deliberately tried to make Oxbow off the pace ... Tried to make him run off the pace?
    Slow down, not run out in front, save his energy for later in the race. Horse didn't like that, got seriously pissed at the jockey, fought him the whole way and did poorly. --Montanabw OH, omitted a word -- ya shoulda said so! --Montanabw
  • "(Overanalyze won the race.)" Is that really important to the story?
    Overanalyze ran in the Kentucky Derby, so they met again later. Probably more to the point is that it's there because we mention how he was right on the tail of the second place horse, Frac Daddy, so inevitably some reviewer will want to know who won. (we care about that because while the film shows the third and fourth place horses finishing ahead of him, they were over on the other side of the track, he was right at the flank of Frac Daddy, breathing down his neck, the horse is a competitive little booger and just will not quit) Feel free to edit that one as you see fit. --Montanabw

Triple Crown Series

  • The positioning of that lead image is simply dreadful. Can it not be moved down to the Preakness Stakes section?
    We can now that there is more material; it originally sandwiched with text in the quote box. --Montanabw

Kentucky Derby

  • "The horse had to use his speed early to avoid being pushed into the rail or being hemmed in behind traffic." Which horse are we talking about? Revolutionary or Oxbow?
    Clarified. Rephrased. See if that works better. --Montanabw

Belmont Stakes

  • "However, the difficult to rate Oxbow moved up ...". Difficult for whom to rate? In what way difficult?
    Rating a horse is for the jockey to tell them to slow down and save their energy and stamina; Oxbow just doesn't want to be rated unless he's close to or in front of all the other horses (which is why he won the Preakness, when he got out front, the jockey slowed him down to save his energy, but the horse apparently went along with it because he was in front and happy about it), this is why it's sort of amazing that he wins anything at all because his only speed is pretty much full speed until he runs out of gas. And winning second in the Belmont by charging full speed down the backstretch is not the normal way to place in a race -- the other horses he was battling for early speed wound up last. But he's so tough and determined. It's why I got into working on this article, he's a tough, quirky, stubborn little bugger and quite opinionated. You don't run into race horses with this much personality these days. --Montanabw
  • " However, he checked out to have no evident injuries." That's very strange phrasing, but did he ride Oxbow in the race? And why does the sentence start with "however", which is rarely a good idea.
    I tweaked it some, feel free to tweak more. The jockey was dumped off another horse the week prior (at a track out in California) and as a result had bruised ribs and was too sore to ride the race horses he had scheduled for the next day. But the x-rays all came back clear so he got a green light to ride Oxbow in the Belmont. Given that the guy is 50 and his body is apparently held together with duct tape and baling twine, this was a concern. --Montanabw
  • "While Oxbow was the third favorite at 5-1 on the morning line". What's a morning line?
    Froggerlaura fixed the glossary and linked it. Does that work? --Montanabw
  • "... at the half-mile pole sat just a neck off the leader at :46-3/5. On the backstretch, Oxbow took the lead, and completed the three-quarter mile mark at 1:10.95". Seems odd in one instance to give the time as a regular fraction and then as a decimal fraction.
Good point. Fractions were old school and common lingo, but only to tenths, modern equipment better, so probably we need to fix that throughout. Going back to the sources, though if they aren't consistent, then, well, crap... Montanabw(talk) 22:29, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
A bit of elementary arithmetic is allowed though; :46-3/5 is quite obviously :46.6. Eric Corbett 23:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Fixed, even the Daily racing form has times in both fractions and decimals... sheesh! --Montanabw

Preakness Stakes

  • "Similarly, it was the ninth Triple Crown win but the first since Point Given in 2001 for Stevens." In what way similar? Similar to what?
    SImilar to D. Wayne Lukas not having a triple crown win since 2000... how should that be tweaked? May leave it to your judgement. --Montanabw
    I've had a tweak, but although I tried not to I may have messed up your citations, so you'll need to check. The way it's written now makes more sense to me at least. Eric Corbett 23:06, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Notes

  • "Breezing a horse is to give them an easy workout under a hold without much encouragement from the rider" What does "under a hold" mean?
    Not allowed to run full speed, just sort of going faster than a conditioning gallop but not for long and with no urging to get up to full speed; kind of "as fast as he feels like going, but not too fast for too long." --Montanabw
Replies: I have tried to address at least some of your concerns with additional edits. The problem with jargon is a tricky one; finding the line between jargon and technical language so as to not become amateurish-sounding to those who do follow horse racing is a problem. The analogy I can think of for folks is American football, where you probably can't explain a game without using words like "punted on fourth down" - which are meaningless to those who don't follow American football, but you can't really explain the game by saying something clunky and almost idiotic-sounding like "on fourth down, i.e. the fourth time the team tries to move the ball down the field toward the goal, they punted, which means to kick the football down the field as far as the could so the other team had to run the ball a long ways once they got possession." (see the problem?). With that analogy in mind, I would welcome your thoughts on where we can let the jargon sit and where we must offer an English translation. Montanabw(talk) 19:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I could tweak (add citations/ ce) the racing glossary terms so that we could link to the offending phrases. Are glossaries allowed here or is it better to redirect readers to Wiktionary? Froggerlaura ribbit 20:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Froggerlaura, that would be fantastic! The North American Thoroughbred horse racing terminology glossary sucks, we could also use breeze", as well as a bunch of others. Anything you could do in that area would be welcomed across multiple articles. (We have a very few racing terms in Glossary of equestrian terms deliberately, because it would dominate the glossary to add them...). That said, if a word is defined in wiktionary, a wikt link also works for this. Montanabw(talk) 23:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I understand the problem Montanabw. If you have them, a picture of Oxbow coming out of the starting traps(?) would help clarify the "four post start" idea, and ideally one of him rounding a corner for "four horses wide". But I realise that's probably asking too much. I'm having another read through to see if I understand the racing terms better than I did last night, and what I think might need some explanation. Eric Corbett 21:50, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I'll also look to see if we have articles for starting gate and other words -- one idea: As you go through, wikilink the weird words, if they redlink, that's a cue to us to add them to the glossary, etc... ?? Montanabw(talk) 22:27, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Will do. One general problem I think is that Americans seem to be obsessed about the statistics of a race/game/sports contest. For instance, we'd just say that Oxbow rounded the bend on the outside, without counting how many horses were on his inside. Eric Corbett 23:01, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I suppose we are that way! I'll see what makes sense to tone down. Montanabw(talk) 23:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Belmont note for all other editors

I will be offline most of Saturday, so unable to update the page that day with the Belmont results, whatever they may be. Can one of you other folks do so? Froggerlaura and I have both "primed the pump" by placing some preliminary info in hidden text at the appropriate spots on the page, so all anyone else needs to do is toss the hidden tags and add results. Ideally with a source (just put raw URL between ref tags and we can run reflinks to finish it up Monday or whenever). Thanks. Montanabw(talk) 21:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Some comments

  • "he had an uneven early career" not sure what that means. You can be entirely awesome and be uneven, or entirely useless and be uneven....
    Well, "uneven" here meant when he was awesome he was awesome and when he wasn't, he was at least interesting. Not sure how to say it differently?? --Montanabw
  • "He was bred by Richard Santulli's New Jersey-based Colts Neck Stables,[2][3][4]" why three refs here, the first one seems perfectly adequate.
    I'm thinking FAC later, no one of the three quotes says all the data, each has two of three facts: 1) Santulli is breeder; 2) Santulli owns Colt's Neck Stables; 3) The business is HQ'd in New Jersey. Also had a bugger of a time verifying Oxbow was foaled in Kentucky (which is a political thing, important to qualify foals for several important awards later). --Montanabw
  • "That success was the first win in a Triple Crown Race for Calumet Farm in 45 years, breeder Richard Santulli's first win in a classic race, Lukas' first Triple Crown Race win since 2000, and the first Triple Crown win since 2001 for Stevens, who returned to riding in early 2013 following a seven-year retirement." not sure a sentence which repeats "Triple Crown" three times is top of our game.
    I'm groovy if you can rephrase it more smoothly; I'll probably take another whack at it, or maybe have Eric Corbett see if he can fix it --Montana
    Slightly rewritten to get rid of one "Triple Crown". Eric Corbett 10:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Consider linking Purse distribution for the non-horsey readers.
    OK, but you could have just done it too, ya know... (lol and grin) --Montanabw
  • "In 2012, the Calumet .." followed by "In 2013..." a bit samey, perhaps "The following year" since there's no ambiguity here.
    Hmm. Not sure, I don't have a precise date, but he appears to have done it in the early spring, "2013" is all we have. I'm not fond of "the following year" in this context, though not opposed to some improvement. --Montanabw
  • "Listed at 22–1 that day" perhaps "Listed at odds of 22–1"... was this the starting price, I'm not sure how US horse betting works?
    I'm actually no gambling expert myself (I'm notorious for simple $2 bets to show on long shots, as a rule, actually... LOL) but I wikilinked "odds" --MOntanabw
    I avoid the "endash" formatting wars, I let those who care just go through and set them as they see fit. --Montanabw
  • "as the 2-1 favorite" be consistent with the en-dash implementation of the odds.
    Ditto, those who care can fix it, I never can figure out what "teh rulz" are this week on that. --MOntanabw
  • "at the quarter-mile post" vs "by the quarter mile post" a lot of this throughout, is it "quarter mile" or "quarter-mile" in this context? Just need consistency.
    Thanks for pointing that out, will fix. --Montanabw
  • "breaking from the far outside post at number eleven. Ridden by Corey Nakatani, his fifth jockey in five races, Oxbow broke well coming out the gate" "breaking ... broke" reads repetitively for me.
    Will look at that --Montanabw
  • "post position 1" and "at number 3" technically wouldn't our MOS:NUM say these should be "one" and "three"? (as you do later on with "drew the number seven post position, with rival Orb at post five").
    Will fix --Montanabw
  • " :48.60," looks odd to me, I would at least have a lead zero in the number, so "0:48.60" but that's probably a Brit thing.
    Will fix --MOntanabw
  • "the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA)" you already abbreviated it in the lead, no need to do it again.
    OK --MOntanabw
  • Excellent accessible sortable table ;).
  • "one million dollars" vs "$1 million" vs "$1,000,000". Perhaps some consistency, although perhaps variety is the spice...?
    Dunno on that one, I suppose it's a style question. I'll ping Corbett again. --Montanabw
    I think we're consistently "$1 million" now. Eric Corbett 10:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

My replies interspersed above. Thanks for the feedback. Montanabw(talk) 16:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome. I didn't make some of the suggested changes just in case you didn't agree with them, or if you'd already had contrary feedback. Good luck with the article at FAC (if that's where you take it [don't bother with GAN]), I've enjoyed tinkering with it, hopefully to improve it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
True confession here is that I'd get a huge kick out of having it be TFA just before or during the Breeder's Cup (Nov. 1 and 2). Presuming he runs in it, at least. Don't think we have any other horse racing articles in shape for TFA except Thoroughbred which was TFA already. Curious why you discourage GAN? (Kind of think we need more stability for FAC...?) Montanabw(talk) 18:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Same as Eric's advice. Post at GAN, wait two-to-three months for someone who is not really clued up to give their opinion, and then feel disappointed that you'd spent so much time and emotional energy getting Oxbow up to scratch. At least FAC will provide some detailed and expert advice. Even if you fail at FAC, you'll get some great input. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Actually Jersey Act, Easy Jet, and Barbara L all haven't been TFA yet. I have a bunch of obscure racing GAs too... but I'm usually much more interested in older TB history than modern racehorses. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:28, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ealdgyth! Good to see you here! I'll grant you three ahead of me in the TFA queue, of course, I know how you just LOOOOOVE TFA days!  ;-) All that said, would you like to peek at the pedigree section here? I don't know TB pedigree stuff as well as I could and want to be sure I'm pointing out stuff that is both cool and relevant. Really interesting family of horses, actually. I'm sandboxing an article on Paynter right now... Montanabw(talk) 21:17, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Some further comments

  • "Oxbow's second-place finish in the Belmont Stakes in June made him only the third horse to have $1 million dollars in purse wins for 2013, and was ranked by the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA) as the top three-year-old racehorse in the United States." There's clearly something badly wrong with that sentence, but I can't fix it because I'm uncertain whether Oxbow's $1 million dollars purse wins and his top ranking are in some way related. If they're not, that probably ought to be two sentences.
  • They aren't related, other than both occurred because he placed in the Belmont. --Montanabw Rephrased into two sentences
  • "... one of the top tail-female lines in America." What's a "tail-female" line?
    Thats what I was afraid of; lingo horse people almost demand colliding with the need for simple English. It's the bottom line of the pedigree, mama to grandma to great-grandma, etc... mtDNA line, basically. Suggestions? --Montanabw Rephrased to "distaff," still horse lingo, but linkable to meaning.
  • "Cee's Song consistently produced race winners or the dams of race winners with five full siblings". That's not quite right, as the word ordering makes it seem like each of the siblings had five siblings. I want to say something like "Five full siblings produced by Cee's Song were either race winners or the dams of race winners", but I'm not sure of the correct horsey language.
  • That works, do it! --Montanabw Follow up :Did it, with minor reprhase ("by" implies the sire, "out of" means the dam)
  • Why are the odds in the racing statistics table shown as decimal fractions rather than as "20–1" for instance, as they are in the rest of the article? What does odds of 22.40 mean anyway?
  • It's a weirdness in the source. The decimal form is probably what the computer says is exact, while the whole numbers is what shows up on the tote board outside. I don't care for it, either, but it might be OR to round the decimals. Thoughts? --Montanabw
  • "... 1-3/4 lengths behind Oxbow". Assuming that's a normal vulgar fraction, the MoS recommends that the {{frac}} template be used, as in {{frac|1|3|4}}.

Eric Corbett 11:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

  • That's doable. --Montanabw And done by Frggerlaura, thanks! Montanabw(talk) 04:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Notes as I see them... need improved...

  • "Undercard" - needs explaining or linking for the non-horseperson
  • Need conversions for the furlongs and other distances.
    See quextion/comment below. --Montanabw
More as I find the time. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:17, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
  • "Oxbow's win in the Preakness Stakes was the first win in a classic race for Santulli's breeding program." - you've just mentioned two Breeder's Cup Classic wins - folks are going to assume you mean those with "classic race" - needs link or explanation, because they are going to be confused at this statement.
    Looks like Froggerlaura linked it, I added a couple words. --Montanabw
  • "by bloodstock agent" ... again, no context or description for the non-horseperson.
    Glossarized by Froggerlaura--Montanabw
  • "who is believed to be a member of the group." Interesting gossip, but utterly irrelvant to Oxbow.
    Moved to a footnote.--Montanabw
  • "Although his horses race under the name of Calumet Farm, they carry Kelley's black and gold colors, as the original red and blue silks of Calumet had been sold in 1992." Interesting trivia, better in a footnote.
    Footnoted. --Montanabw
  • "He was pulled up after taking an awkward step" jargon alert.
    footnoted pending glossarization --Montanabw
More later, maybe. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, the more good comments the merrier, and feel free to make any of these little tweaks if you feel like doing so! I'll work on the content, I think Frogerlaura is working on the words that need wikilinking to the North American horse racing glossary, she did a bunch of terrific work over there! Montanabw(talk) 15:34, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Question: Is there a furlongs template the way we have one for hands? We wikilink furlong on its first use, AND we have the full conversions in the chart at the bottom, so do we need to convert throughout?? Montanabw(talk) 16:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Well {{convert}} has a furlong conversion. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:41, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I suck at doing syntax unless I have a model to cut and paste from. Can you demo here how to use it, say, for a 6-furlong race? Montanabw(talk) 19:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you can say {{convert|8|furlong|mi}} which becomes 8 furlongs (1.0 mi)? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I"ve used furlongs in some of my TB articles ... I think. Check out Luke McLuke or Springbok (horse). Will try to get back for more comments later ... been a busy day today. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Let's see 8 furlongs (1.0 mi; 1.6 km). Need metrics too -- can anyone fix the syntax to do both? We have hands, where {{hands|16}} gives us both 16 hands (64 inches, 163 cm). Can we tweak furlongs to make that happen?? Montanabw(talk) 23:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but you'd need to find an amenable administrator, as the template is protected. Eric Corbett 23:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I made a two unit conversion template for furlongs {{convert|12|furlong|mi m|1|lk=on}} equals 12 furlongs (1.5 mi; 2,414.0 m) and {{convert|12|furlong|mi m|1|lk=off}} equals 12 furlongs (1.5 mi; 2,414.0 m). Froggerlaura ribbit 04:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Dah-ling Froggerlaura, you are both a goddess and a genius (hugs, prostrations, worshipful genuflections...) WOW, thanks. You rock, and to paraphrase D.Wayne, [Any superlatives you'd like to use on Froggerlaura, feel free...] Montanabw(talk) 18:47, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
... and you can now add the new "format=off" parameter to get rid of that rather old-fashioned comma, as in {{convert|12|furlong|mi m|1|lk=off|format off}}, as in 12 furlongs (1.5 mi; 2,414.0 m)*, although for 12 furlongs I think a conversion to kilometres rather than metres would be best, as in 12 furlongs (1.5 mi; 2.4 km). Eric Corbett 19:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way, Corbett, you've convinced me; I'll take it straight to FAC, but you'd better have my back, man...! :-) Montanabw(talk) 18:49, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Very sensible. Eric Corbett 19:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
(**Slaps Corbett**) Montanabw(talk) 21:24, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to call me Eric, all my friends do. Being called Corbett reminds me of grammar school: "Corbett! Stop talking at the back there." Eric Corbett 21:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
BTW, you don't appear to have written the nomination, so there's nothing to transclude to FAC. Eric Corbett 21:45, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Just did now, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Oxbow (horse)/archive1. And as for grammar school, that's my intent! (Bwahahahahaaa!) Montanabw(talk) 21:46, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Grammar schools had nothing to do with grammar, it was a place you were sent if you passed an entrance exam at the age of 11 here in the UK. The dummies went off to God knows where. Eric Corbett 21:52, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
LOL, in the USA, it's just a synonym for elementary school. In your case however, providing us all the image of a teacher yelling at you for talking in the back is amusing, given your current role as grammar curmudgeon on wiki. (MTBW snorting coffee out my nose -- aka SCOMN! )Montanabw(talk) 21:56, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
We are indeed two nations divided by a common language. But I think TV and films have helped with that. Eric Corbett 22:02, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

For FAC newbies

OK all, for those of you who haven't done the FAC gauntlet before, give me or User:Eric Corbett a shout if anything comes up that you aren't sure about. If I may pun (or mix my equestrian metaphors beyond all reason), this isn't our first FAC rodeo, we can let you know what's a legitimate concern that's fixable (and I'm probably going to be the one who will have to fix most of those) or if we need to discuss other options. Montanabw(talk) 21:53, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm only good for commas really, as Ealdgyth will tell you. Eric Corbett 21:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

If needed

Parking sources, mostly for sourcing overkill, if needed. Montanabw(talk) 22:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

*Jim Dandy Stakes July 27 at Saratoga

Sandbox on quote box

Collapsing the sandbox pending archive

Different ways reporters put post-race comments from the jockey:

USA Today source: "I'm so proud of this colt," Stevens said. "I thought I was dead midway down the backside. They were suicidal fractions, and he never really got any break."

New York Daily News: (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/bondy-biggest-losers-belmont-story-lines-article-1.1367263) “I’m so proud of this colt,” Stevens said. “I thought I was dead midway down the backside. There were suicidal fractions and he never got any break. Going into the far turn, I didn’t think he would have hit the board. To finish second, I am really surprised. He’s one of the greatest thoroughbreds ever.”

http://articles.philly.com/2013-06-10/sports/39875282_1_oxbow-belmont-stakes-belmont-park  : "I'm so proud of this colt," Stevens said. "I thought I was dead midway down the backside. They were suicidal fractions and he never got any break . . . But I have ridden long enough to know that he was going to walk home the last quarter of a mile. Going into the far turn, I didn't think he would have hit the board."

DRF source: Oxbow, despite what Stevens called “suicidal fractions,” courageously held second, leaving Stevens to call him “one of the bravest horses I’ve ever ridden.”

UT San Diego: “I’m so proud of my colt,” Stevens said of Oxbow. “I thought I was dead after those suicide fractions (by Frac Daddy). When Mike put the pressure on us, I got him up for about five jumps, but that was it. Mike pulled away, and I said, ‘Go on Mikey.’ I’ve ridden long enough to know that after all that rockin’ on the backside, we were going to walk home. I was surprised to hit second. He gave it his all, and he is one of the best colts I’ve ever sat on.”

Courier Journal source:“We were going entirely way too fast to be even competitive,” Stevens said. “That’s why I’m so proud of this colt. I didn’t think I would hit the board going down the backstretch, we were going that fast. ... Mike sat a perfect trip on the outside and had to be loving what he was seeing in front of him.”...“Mike had me any time he wanted to, coming into the stretch,” Stevens said. “I was real proud of Oxbow to be able to hold on and run second.”

Update links

Stuff for later. Montanabw(talk) 19:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

  • July 6 Workout at Churchill downs: [7] Lukas quote: "Lukas said the second half of the season portends good things for Oxbow 'by virtue of how aggressive and tough he is. A lot of horses, the Triple Crown takes its toll on them, but I’ve got a very comfortable feeling that this horse is going to just keep getting better. I don’t really have to worry about surface or distance with him. He’s shown how game and versatile he is.'"
  • More articles on Awesome Again: [8] (Very good article from May 2013) and [9]. Note good stuff on how little inbreeding in oxbow's pedigree (maybe add to article later...)
  • A bit more post-Belmont wrapup and analysis of Oxbow's running style: scroll to "With Malice Aforethought"
  • And still in the top 10 and top 3-year-old in the July 8 NTRA poll: [10] and [11] and [12]
  • At Saratoga: but no news Another Lukas quote: "“He is such a tough, competitive horse,” Lukas said. “The Triple Crown can take its toll on a horse, but he has put on weight. We gave him a break, and gosh, he got so tough, we had to get him back out on the track. He is different.”
  • Looks like it's the Haskell on the 28th: [13] (Other stories on Bloodhorse indicate that Palace Malice is pointed to the Jim Dandy and Orb will skip both to go straight to the Travers) more detail here
  • Story on Oxbow (and other horses') recovery from Triple Crown season: [14]
  • Awesome Patriot has been retired to stud: [15]
  • More on anticipated field for Haskell: [16]

New notes

Archives

Created archive for old talk today. Article not apt to see much more editing until we know if Oxbow will return to racing later this year. Montanabw(talk) 23:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

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