Talk:Persian alphabet

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Diacritics[edit]

Although not used for writing Farsi by Iranians themselves, some westerners inserted "vowel-points" showing short vowels into extracts of Farsi works in order to write primers for western learners of Farsi.

A primer of Persian: containing selections for reading and composition with the elements of syntax By George Speirs Alexander Ranking

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fz9bAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

more information on the diacritics

http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/Romanization/Romanization_Persian.pdf

http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.htm

http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/v2_2/rom1_fa.htm

http://www.transparent.com/learn-farsi/overview.html#.UWtoe8u9KSM

http://books.google.com/books?id=zLlFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=NEMOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA4#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=DD5bAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=M0MOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=bFcOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=qP9GAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false



http://books.google.com/books?id=knA9NptP7xsC&pg=PP13#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9flPAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=kP9GAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=a7dIAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA294#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=g5ZHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA6#v=onepage&q&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=O3lHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=uL1TAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9ONGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=-L9UAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

What does this mean?[edit]

"However two of them are different. " Two of what? Is the sentence trying to say, "the two are [a little] different?"211.225.33.104 (talk) 07:38, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Writing numbers right to left[edit]

In Perso-Arabic, as in Arabic, words are written from right to left while numbers are written from left to right.

The Western convention is to write numbers left to right, most-significant digit to least significant digit. In Persian script, are numbers actually written left-to-write (as performed with an actual pen) or are the numbers written right to left LSD to MDS, which would appear to a Western eye as matching our left to right convention? If Persian writers actually change pen direction, do they wind up with the infamous plan ahea
d
problem? — MaxEnt 03:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I've seen commenters elsewhere (sorry, don't have link) say that, in Arabic, 321 would be read "one and twenty and three hundred". That is, they both write and say the LSDs first. Whether this extends to other languages that use Arabic script is a good question. Pelagic (talk) 21:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Perso-Arabic[edit]

Making a blanket change from "Perso-Arabic" to "Arabic" does not make sense. This article is about the Persian alphabet, not the Arabic script nor Arabic alphabet which already have separate articles.

I take the use of "Perso-Arabic script" in this article to mean that the term is restrictive (referring to the Persian variant of Arabic script) rather than inclusive (referring to Persian and Arabic together). Is that correct?

The 25 March edit by 194.36.164.228 led to some nonsensical statements, like "there are many Arabic-derived alphabets which were not influenced by the Arabic script".

If an editor thinks that there are statements here that apply to all Arabic scripts, then he should move them to the Arabic script article, not just leave them here and change "Persian" to "Arabic".

If editors feel that the term "Perso-Arabic script" is confusing, overused, or incorrectly used, then perhaps we should carefully employ some alternate terms, such as "Persian variant of Arabic script", "Persian extension", or "Persian alphabet". (Strictly, it's an abjad rather than an alphabet, but there seems to be a fairly consistent use of Xxx alphabet, Xxx script, and Xxx language in article titles.)

Pelagic (talk) 02:18, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Panjistani?[edit]

Some writers are saying that there are three dialects or dialect groups within the Lahnda group:

  • Saraiki (southern)
  • Hindko (western)
  • Panjistani (northern)

http://panjistani.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Panjistani_langauge, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ma120/sandbox&oldid=619888358

Do we gain anything by listing all these here, or by replacing a bluelink to Saraiki with a redlink to Panjistani?

The current Hindko article lists Panjistani as a synonym, but doesn't say much about the writing system other than it uses Shahmukhi. The Saraiki articles (Saraiki language, Saraiki alphabet) mention that there are 5 extra characters (44 total) compared to the 39 in standard Urdu, so at least that is notable.

But then the Shahmukhi article has a table with 47 characters and an infobox with 38 letters.

Like most readers, I'm not an Indologist and can't read Arabic script, so I find all this very confusing.

It seems that any time we have a statement of the form "script X is used to write languages A, B, and C, amongst others" it invites edits from people who are pushing a nationalist agenda or simply want to say "my dialect is better than your dialect".

Is there some way that we can structure this article to (a) avoid disruptive edits, and (b) give a clean overview of the different extensions to (Perso-)Arabic script without requiring the reader to click/tap through to many different pages?

I'd like to make a table, but don't feel qualified. Perhaps even a separate article like "Comparison of alphabets using Arabic script" to save cluttering the main article with a large table? (And the table will grow as people add the character repertoires of their favourite languages/dialects.)

P.S. sorry for using external-link markup for the permalinks; I can't remember the proper wikilink syntax.

Pelagic (talk) 22:33, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Arabic script[edit]

@Largoplazo: I understand the point you are trying to make in this edit but honestly this section is literally just "the Arabic script 101", it doesn't talk about the Persian adaptations at all. I was considering trying to reframe it today because, for example, the vowel length of Middle Persian and early New Persian has collapsed (in three distinct manners: Western, Dari and Tajiki!) into a five or seven vowel system, but the spelling remains archaic. Also, Persian remains an abjad; it's not like Yiddish's adaptation of the Aramaic Square Script at all.

I think the solution is to section it, talk about Arabic (I cleaned that section up a bit but it could be slimmed down more), then talk about how Middle Persian borrowed it and what it means in Western Persian today (vowels, sound collapse). Ogress 22:05, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I see your point as well. But why should the article spend any time talking about what happened in Arabic, rather than just taking it for granted (because it's explained at Arabic script, to which this article links) and explaining "like the Arabic script, the Persian script doesn't ordinarily represent most vowels ..." or whatever it would be accurate to say about Persian vowels (about which I am no expert, hence no specifics from me).
I know that the Persian script remains an abjad, but my point was that when a language derives its script from another language's script, it isn't a given that it uses it the same way. I didn't see any reason to mention the nature of the script as Arabic uses it when this is an article on Persian script. After all, the articles on English alphabet and, for example, Maltese alphabet may describe specific adaptations that the respective languages made to the Latin alphabet, but they don't talk at length about the nature of the alphabet as used by the ancient Romans. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:43, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
The history of the adaptation of the Arabic script to Persian is fairly straightforward but most of what is discussed is specific to the needs of Arabic and makes no sense when discussing Persian. We could dispense with discussion of Arabic but we'd need to more than just change one word from "Arabic" to "Persian" because the statements are unequivocally specific to Arabic and relate to how it was adopted by Middle Persian. The changes from Middle Persian to New Persian are a second bit that need to be added on. I'll have a quick run at it and post a suggested rewording [1]. Ogress 17:20, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Dastur-e khatt-e Farsi[edit]

[2] is a PDF with a part of دستور خطّ فارسى by Academy of Persian Language and Literature. The article links to it twice: as a reference for the table of letters, and under external links. But its full text is also available in textual form at Academy's site and this is the relevant chapter. Perhaps it would be better than image-only PDF? — mwgamera (talk) 05:55, 2 July 2016 (UTC)