Talk:Pett dynasty

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Jump to: navigation, search (talk) 10:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)Patealpate1 (talk) 08:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

When I can figure out which Pett is correct, I will add the following text from the Robert Holborn article:

"Peter Pett, the son of John, who was summoned from his place of residence, then at Harwich, to work on the king’s ships at Portsmouth in 1543. Pett was granted a wage and fee for life (vadium et feodum)."

Jekoko 23:23, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Major copyedit[edit]

completed major edit but still need to drop in the above text Jekoko 03:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Material for this note came out of study of Pate boatbuilding in the context of the Pett Shipbuilding Dynasty heritage in America, that was active in Yorktown, Virginia, and Bertie County, North Carolina, involving Pates. The Pate Boatyard at Hobucken, North Carolina, was founded by Herman L. Pate, son of William Samuel Pate.

The father of W. Samuel Pate was William T.(Thomas?) Pate. Did he name all his sons William? Besides W. Samuel Pate, he had sons W.J. Pate and William M. Pate. William T. Pate’s wife was Sara L. (Leatha Goodwin?) Pate. W. Samuel Pate married Mamie L. Barnett 11 August 1903, when he was 21 years old.

The given names Willieroy and Leroy and Roy in the American Pate family is an interesting reminder of Pate descent from kings. According to Arthur Zuckerman, noted authority on such matters, the Jewish prince Makhir (descended from Jewish royalty of Baghdad) took the Greek Christian name Theodoric (Thierry in French) and was the king of the Jewish kingdom of Septimania in southern France, the capitol of which was Narbonne. Theodoric was known in French popular poetry and romances as Aymery.

Amery (Amerson) is a Patetown surname, from which descend my cousins from Richard Pate, eldest brother of my grandfather Daniel Floyd Pate. Aymery was the father of Guillaume (William) of Gellone (first of the historically great Williams in European history). The device of the shield of William of Gellone was the Lion of Judah, which is in the arms of Peter Pett of Skipton (Skipwith town), father of the Phineas Pett, builder of the great English frigate Sovereign Of The Seas, who used the arms of his father.

The arms of Peter Pett are on page 218 of The Diary of Phineas Pett. The arms of Peter Pett are those claimed by descendants of Thoroughgood Pate of the North Carolina Sandhills, whose genealogy by Julia Claire Pate is in Wilson Library, UNC, Chapel Hill. This is the Pate line from which descends Gen. Randolph “Chesty” McCall Pate, Marine Corps commandant who brought this branch back to its naval roots. (talk) 10:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Below is the epitaph of Peter Pett, engraved on his tombstone. With the epitaph is the arms of Pett, on which is a scuttled frigate denoting the Pett/Pate shipbuilders shame of the battle of Medway, which impelled Petts, Pates, Pitts, Penns and Pettuses into America.

Epitaphium. "Quantum antiqua viris tribuerunt tempora magnis, Utile qui patriæ attulerint vel nobile quicquam, Tantum hanc ætatem tibi, Pette, rependere oportet Ergo inter veteres tu collaudabere semper; Namque tibi hoc proprium est retrò ut tua sama recurrat Laudibus atque novis priscorum jungat honores." Arms—O. on a fesse G. between three pellets a lion pass. of the field. Underneath is the hulk of a frigate.

From: 'Deptford, St Nicholas', The Environs of London: volume 4: Counties of Herts, Essex & Kent (1796), pp. 359-385. URL: Date accessed: 12 May 2008.

The Latin Pette spelling of Pett is an obvious explanation of the etymology of the surname of the shipbuilding Petty branch of the greatest boatbuilding family in the world, that has John Pate connections to the Boatwright family in America. A John Pate changed his name to Rose, explaining the origin of shipbuilding Roses in association with Pate shipbuilders in North Carolina.

W. Samuel Pate died before Herman L. Pate was 10 years old. By his teens Herman L. Pate was a journeyman carpenter. For some period of time early in his life Herman L. Pate worked at Barbour Boat Works, a legendary name in pleasure and commercial boat building, in New Bern, North Carolina. Mr. Bert Robinson, whose family was for years neighbor to Mamie L. (nee’ Barnett) Pate, widow of W. Samuel Pate, attributes the boatbuilding success of Herman L. Pate to the Barbour Boat Works experience.

I have no information on the circumstances that led to Herman Pate’s opportunity at Barbours, but he must have been a promising young boat builder. Herman L. Pate built his first boat in 1927, but I have no description of this boat. Most of the boats built by Herman Pate were fishing trawlers and boats used by the Buoy Service that was next door to his yard and boat railway on the Intracoastal Waterway. The Buoy Service preceded Coast Guard Station Hobucken. Its job was to maintain the Pamlico County area waterways channel lights and markers. The original Pate Boatyard no longer exists.

My talk with Capt. Bobby A. Lewis (USMM Ret.) and fishing boat captain Jack Sadler, of Lowlands and Hobucken, respectively, revealed that Herman Pate built gunboats for the American military during WWII at Barbour Boat Works. During the 1950's he was the shop foreman at Hatteras Trawler Co. in Morehead City, North Carolina, before that company was bought and the name changed. Herman Pate continued his boatbuilding at Hobucken, throughout this, but the only Herman Pate boat I have found is the beautiful trawler Carolina Lady, which still operates out of Hobucken.

Subsequent discussion with cited sources, and others at Mayo Fish Co. in Hobucken, conclude that the Carolina Lady was not, in fact, a Herman Pate trawler, but a contemporary, built by James Gillikin on Radio Island. This discussion concluded that the last Herman Pate trawler to operate out of Hobucken was the Sandra. The Sandra struck a reef near Key West, Florida, where it was repaired. Latest word is that the Sandra was sold there, and is “gone to Texas”, where many Pates have gone before her. Patealpate1 (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Before he died Herman L. Pate built a second and smaller boatyard in downtown Hobucken, with channels dredged to the sound. Herman L. Pate had sons Billy, Kenneth and Aubrey, who are now all dead. The present Pate Boatyard in Hobucken is not connected to the Herman L. Pate family. Pictures of the original Pate’s boatyard are in the history of Hobucken, The Goose Creek Islander 1874-1974.

Pates lived on the Neuse River at Spring Garden (near New Bern, Craven County) and at the mouth of Stoney Creek in Wayne County in the 1800’s. Most conspicuous of these Wayne County Neuse River Pates are a Calvin and a Samuel. Could Pates Calvin and Samuel have connections to predestinarian Jacobean Petts?

A Pett ship owner was in America as early as 1609, with the ship Unity, which was under command of a Captain Martin. This is noted in History Of The Virginia Company, p. 30, edited by Edward D. Neil, published by Joel Munsell, Albany, N.Y., 1869:

The given name of the Pett ship master is not given, and it is unlikey that his ship Unity was the royal naval frigate involved in the Dutch attack on the Medway River, which resulted in the imprisonment of Peter Pett in the Tower Of London in 1667. I wonder if the early Virginia Company ship Unity master could have been Arthur Pett, who was commissioned by Gerard Mercator to surreptitiously explore the northern Asian seas for the Muscovy Company in a "fast ship" in the 1580’s. Arthur Pett’s role as a maritime spy assured his anonymity in English history. Arthur Pett’s surname was spelled Pet, Pett and Pitt by Mercator:

Petts, Peytos, Pates and such bearers of the P-300 surname synonymy don’t make much of it, but there is a not much talked about Pate Charlemagne connection:

Is this John Pate the John Pate whose male descendants changed their surname to Rose? This may be the connection that explains the now extinct Roses who were in association with Pate boatbuilders at Hobucken, North Carolina, as indicated by Pamlico County records.

Pates of Sisonby and Chatham seem to have been what Nicholas de Vere now refers to as "Tinker Aristocracy", who he claims married into the Merovingian Drakula line, of Blackwood House of Lanark, Scotland. Among the lessees of Sir John Hawkins Hospital at Chatham was:

“Edward Sison of same, gentleman, Master Shipwright of HM [Dock] Yard and Navy as above“:

Sisonby is the contraction of Sison (Sissoon, Sassoon, a family powerful in the East India Company) Bury, graveyard of the Sisons and Pates in Leicestershire. This is a tie to Sir Edward Pate, Master of the Mint, and the Pate family of Sisonby. Patealpate1 (talk) 15:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Another Pett/Pate synonym, Pytts, is introduced in a good discussion of the relationship of Petts and their Johnson, Green and related kin to the East India Company, and the development of the Blackwall Yard at Deptford, in the article “The East India Company and the Construction of Blackwall Yard”:

For info: Blackwall Yard is at Blackwall (then in Middlesex ie on the north bank of the Thames), not at Deptford (Kent). Pterre (talk) 13:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The names Johnson and Green are prominent in North Carolina, but not much associated with Pates there. Members of the Rolt family, descendants of Pett shipbuilders, continued shipbuilding into the modern age of the great iron steamships, built by the Thames Ironworks:

Peter Pett bore the blame placed by the English Parliament for the naval defeat at Medway River. After Peter Pett’s imprisonment in the tower of London, Petts fell out of favor, and Peter Pett disappeared:

Peter Pett’s imprisonment marked the beginning of the Johnson dynasty at Blackwall Yard in Deptford, and the beginning of Pate history in America. The Stepney Folk was a group of people living near Deptford from whom came many great English seafaring families. Index of Pates of Stepney is at:

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Note spelling here of Christopher Pate, of the Pett dynasty of shipbuilders. A North Carolina Christopher Pate, descended from Battens, is my own physician.

I have a copy of the Halifax County, North Carolina, Court House record of the will of a Samuel Peete who died 8 February 1794. No details of his death are given. This will deals only with the disposition of “lately purchased” slaves, left to his father Thomas Peete of Southhampton County, Virginia.

The handwriting of the will was verified by Samuel’s brother Benjamin, John B. Ashe, Josiah Crump and Blake Baker. Crumps (Crumplers) are much associated with Pates of Patetown, and were inheritors of the Coree treasure, a pot of old money that came down through the Silas Daniel Pate line, from Coree Indian Brice's Ranger, Jesse Ammons, grandfather of Scythian Jernigan, wife of Silas Daniel Pate. My impression, from family stories, is that the Coree treasure was used to build the Patetown Free Chapel.Patealpate1 (talk) 09:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Those who have followed my apparent irrelevances to Pate Genealogy know that the English shipbuilding dynasty of Petts was for generations associated with the shipbuilding Baker family, sometimes in hostile relationships. Another irrelevancy is that the household of John Penn (Welsh for Pate), of Halifax County, was apparently dozens of slaves, as indicated by census records. Slavery was all that made the large new colonial plantations on the Roanoke River work. Much labor was necessary for ambitious but arduous projects in the area, like logging, land clearing, stump pulling, stone quarrying, building construction, canal building, channel dredging, river clearing and boatbuilding.

Boatyard building required all these labors and associated skills, from mule skinning and oxen teaming to finished stone masonry. Boatbuilding was integral to economic success on the Roanoke River (which the Siouan Indians knew as Moratuc (Killer River)), in post-Revolutionary War America. Peetes were neighbors of Powells on the Roanoke River in Warren County, North Carolina. Dr. T.E. Powell, Jr., for whom I set up Granite Diagnostics division of Carolina Biological Supply Co., knew of the Pate/Peete synonymy.

Family tree[edit]

All this article needs now is an aesthetic and clickable/linkable family tree; otherwise, I think it's okay to take off the cleanup tag. I'll put it as a requested image. Tamarkot 20:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Trees and Genealogy Problems
Tree of The Four Peter Petts
Does Wiki have a clickable tree model?
Perhaps I do not understand the genealogy structure, but there appear to be some serious problems about the Pett genealogy among the several articles.(Articles Phineas Pett, Peter Pett and this article). For example, in the section "The four Peter Petts", Peter (3nd) of Depford has the same birth and death dates as his uncle, Joseph, although they are in different generations. Only 3 out of the 8 people named in The four Peter Pett section are included in the "Details in Pett Families."
Also, under Peter, Shipwright, 2nd Commissioner at Chatham (1647-1668), born 1610, the birth dates of his children range between 1612 and 1620. Their father can't have been born in 1610!
Yes I think a tree would be quite a help, but if I understand what is now presented in "Details in Pett Families," it is not an outline of a single tree, it is divided by the horizontal lines into four families and only the second and fourth families can be linked. So, at least three trees would be needed, four if a tree of The four Peter Pett is included.
Since I haven't found a good tree model in WIKI, an alternative would be to clarify the section "Details in Pett Families," by adding headings for each of the 4 families. I have downloaded an example of a family tree that I could add if requested, and if consistent with Wiki policy. It is not clickable however. Any comments or suggestions?Tvbanfield (talk) 03:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The Pett (Soundex P-300) synonymy is massive. I think it is no happenstance that the home country of the famous race car driver Richard Petty is in the Peedee River valley, where a colonial Pett descendant, Charles Pate, was the Primitive Baptist bishop. Bishop Charles Pate is discussed in papers in Furman University Archives.

This is one of the most pertinent of my notes that tie together the East India Company and the development of The United States of America. Lately I have notes relating to Pate and Pett boat building. One of the most interesting comments on this matter is the entry in Samuel Pepys Diary of 27 January 1664, discussed on The Web at:

From this entry we learn of a serious shipbuilding conflict between Sir William Petty and Sir Phineas Pett. Pett ships were first and foremost warships, with great shipping capacity. The Petty ships were conceived and built with speed as the first consideration, which Phineas Pett ostensibly disparaged as a waste and danger to English dominance on the seas. Again the Petts made a bad judgment--or did they? Hempson apparently knew that Phineas might "palm an ace", as they say, in matters relating to shipbuilding.

We easily see the etymology of the name Petty in the detailed study of the Pettus family of the original stockholders of the Virginia Company of Kent, Essex and New Kent County, Virginia, which included also Petts and Peetes. The derivation of the Petty name is from the ancient Roman Paetus, root of the Venetian and Paduan Casa Paetus (Ca’Pet) of the French Capet dynasty. We see that the plural of Pettus is Petti, which anglicized is Petty: Patealpate1 (talk) 20:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The fast ship of Sir William Petty was the forerunner of the American Clipper Ships. The Penn Shipyards of Chester, Pennsylvania, were the foundation of the English Penn and Pitt family fortunes, based on clipper ships. I’m satisfied that the Shipyard at Cashoke, on Cashie River, in North Carolina, built boats for speed, as did Samuel Pate at Hobucken--gunboats, not battleships. It was fast gunboats that sank Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge.

Peace promotes prosperity. Peace came to the Carolinas, when the Pates swapped their coastal lands near the then Edenton government of North Carolina to the Tuscaroras, for the present Patetown. I allude, of course, to the Pett, Pitt, Penn (Welsh for Pate) synonymy--and the Pennsylvania Tuscarora Indian sojourn in North Carolina. This is the unmentioned elephant in the parlor of North Carolina History.

The only remaining reminder of Pate boatbuilding in North Carolina is the unnamed U.S. Coast Guard Station at Hobucken, where Samuel Pate, founder of Pate's Boatyard, is buried.

For those who enjoy connecting the dots, here are some dots. Prince William Nassau was the husband of Queen Mary II. The Nassau Indians were one of the Neuse river valley Siouan tribes deleted by the English government from John Lawson’s book New Voyage To Carolina, as indicated on the Cacique Map in the London Records Office. Joan Lawson, wife of John Lawson, was the housekeeper of Thomas Pate the Yorktown ferryman. Thomas Pett was a son of Joseph Pett of the Pett Dynasty of shipbuilders. A Dr. Samuel Peete was a contemporary of Thoroughgood Pate in Bertie County, site of Shipyard Landing on Cashie River where Thoroughgood Pate lived. Christopher Pate, my doctor, is related to Battens, members of which family were aristocratic customers of shipbuilder Christopher Pett of the Pett Dynasty. What is really interesting is that Windsor is the county seat of Bertie County in North Carolina, and the current English royal family was actually named Mount Batten, before changing their name to Windsor. It is probably not a coincidence that Batts (anglicized Dutch Batten) Court is on the old Pitt County portage used by Pates migrating from Bertie County to the present Wayne County, North Carolina, where Batts Farm (now owned by Mary Batts Pate, wife of Handley Junior Pate) is on Patetown Road. (talk 10:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Much information I have shared with you deals with the origin of shipbuilding Pates, in old Bertie County, in North Carolina, and the possible identity of Bishop Charles Pate with Theophilus (God Lover) Patey.

The book Province Of North Carolina 1663-1729 Abstracts Of Land Patents, by Margaret M. Hofman ( in the North Carolina State Library. Raleigh, North Carolina), has in it five references to a place called Patey’s Delight in Bertie Precinct. This place is also called Pate’s Delight in the same book, so yesterday I decided to drive up to Bertie County and have a look at it. Abstract descriptions indicated it was near a place called Patokasey (Pat O’Casey?) Woods, which I thought might bear on the Pate shipbuilding interests.

My plan was to visit Mrs. White, who now lives at Shipyard Landing, and works in the Maps Office in the Bertie County Court House, and get from her and her cartographer associates information on the location of Pateys Delight. My visit with Mrs. White was a pleasant one, with much time spent poring over Confederate foragers maps of the area, and discussing the many given and sur- names on those maps, that are common to the now Wayne County and old Bertie County, including such intriguing ones as Arthur, as in Arthur Pett, who died aboard his ship Unity at Jamestown in Virginia. All our efforts yielded no map location of either Patey’s Delight or Pate’s Delight.

A phone call to a Mr. Thompson, who all in the Bertie County cartographic office agreed is the local authority on Bertie County history, was disappointing. Mr. Thompson knew of no Patey’s Delight nor a Pate’s Delight, but he did recall a place called Heart’s Delight. On the outside chance that I might correlate the location of Heart’s Delight with Patey’s Delight, I asked him where Heart’s Delight was located.

After some irrelevant discussion of the origins of the name of San Souci Ferry, Mr. Thompson concluded he didn’t know Heart’s Delight’s location. Nor could area maps nor local cartographers tell me.

There is in a discussion of Pinner family genealogy a connection to Dr. Samuel Peete of North Hampton County, North Carolina, location of Pate’s Delight:

“12. Benjamin Wyche, son of George & Sarah, was born before 1738 in Sussex County, VA, on May 20, 1758 he married Elizabeth Pette (sic), daughter of Dr. Samuel Peete. Benjamin and Elizabeth Wyche were the parents of William (died young), Benjamin, Margaret "Peggy".”

Wyche (an uncommon name) is a given name of descendants of Bishop Charles Pate’s son Shadrach, in Patetown, in Wayne County, North Carolina.

Dr. Samuel Peete was a resident of the part of Bertie Precinct that is now Northhampton County. This was pointed out to me by Mrs. White, cartographer in the Bertie County courthouse, in Windsor, North Carolina. Locations cited in the Pate’s Delight land patent in Province Of North Carolina 1663 - 1729 Abstracts Of Land Patents, by Margaret M. Hofmann (in North Caroina State Library, Raleigh, N.C.), in Patent Book Three:

“2372 pg. 206 MATHEW SELLER (?) 1 February 1725 640 acres on the South side of Meherrin River in Bertie precinct, joining Pate’s delight and a branch.”

Attached is a copy of a current official North Hampton County map, showing Pate’s Delight as a creek labelled “Paddys Delight Creek“, located three miles southwest of Conway. Conway is a given name of Roses in Wayne County, North Carolina. It may be worth noting that Pates in England changed their surname to Rose after the English Civil War.

There is no North Hampton county road signage showing Pate’s Delight nor Paddy’s Delight. People don’t want other people’s surnames on their property. Potecasi Creek, associated with land grants on Patey’s and Pate’s Delight, is on the southern bounds of a community known simply as “Creeksville”, bound on the north by Paddys Delight Creek. I have to believe that this community was once known as Pate’s Delight.

In conversations, Dr. Thomas E. Powell, Jr., founder of Carolina Biological Supply Co., told me that the Peete family neighbors of the family of William (“Round-Headed-Billy”) Powell, of Warren County, North Carolina, were of the same ancient family as the Pates of Wayne County.

In previous notes I have mentioned associations of members of the Williams and Pate family in Wayne County, North Carolina. Williams and Peetes were associated in Northampton County, as indicated in the will of a Dr. Samuel Peete, from the book Northampton County, North Carolina 1759 - 1808 Genealogical Abstracts Of Wills (in Northampton Memorial Library, Jackson, NC 27845), by Margaret M. Hofmann, published by The Roanoke News Company, Weldon, NC:

“Will 152 pg. 229 SAMUEL PEETE 4 August 1780 December Court 1780 to son THOMAS PEETE 100 pounds Carolina money to son WILLIAM PEETE 5 shillings, all my apotocary (sic) shop and Druggs with all my Physical Books and my Clock daughter MARY ELLIOT 100 pounds Carolina money daughter NANCY PEETE Negroes etc. horse purchased of ELISHA WILLIAMS to be sold and money put out at interest with 510 pounds now lying in the loan office at Williamsborough to granddaughters PEGGY WYCHE and ELIZABETH BLOUNT 100 pounds Va. money each to my wife MARY PEETE during her widowhood and no longer negroes, cattle, hogs, furniture in the Great House, etc. Joseph Grant to have use of the still I purchased of BRYAN WINBURN, sd. GRANT first making over a title in fee simple for land to THOMAS PEETE, the sd. Land containing 185 acres as by deed from GREEN HILL and ELISAY BODDIE to my wife 100 ponds and 1 negro estate to be sold at wife’s death (except the land and plantation I bought of Thomas Boon and James Bryan) and money arising to go to my 5 children: THOMAS PEETE, RICHARD PEETE, WILLIAM PEETE, MARY ELLIOT and NANCY PEETE Extrs.: my son THOMAS PEETE of Sussex Co., Va., Doctor of Physick and my daughter NANCY PEETE of Northampton Co., N.C. Wits.: BRYAN WINBORN, SARAH WILLIAMS X her mark”

Those familiar with the Pate family of Wayne County will see in the names Bryan, Boone, Boddie, Blount, Williams, Wyche, and Elliot, in the will of Dr. Samuel Peete, ancient connections of the Peetes of Northampton County to the Pates of Wayne County. (talk) 12:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I should also note that the uncommon surname Wyche is a given name in the Wayne County Pate descent of Shadrach ("Shade") Pate of Patetown and Raines Crossroad, who was a descendant of Primitive Baptist Bishop Charles Pate AKA Theophilus Patey, friend of John Monk, author of the Cacique Map (in the London (England) Records Office that shows (on the Neuse River; deleted from John Lawson's book New Voyage to Carolina) the Nassau Indians, a link to the Dutch royal house, and the Chicora (Coree) Indians of the Sepahardic colony of Vasquez de Ayllon (Aelian (Paetus gens)) in the PeeDee River Valley Diocese of Charles Pate. The wife of John Lawson was the housekeeper of Thomas Pate (Pett, Peete) shipbuilder and Ferryman of Yorktown. Virginia. (talk) 09:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

If you have a computer that has powerful graphic capabilities, you can download the new Google Earth, and see the precisely cut channel of The Slough, which was the end of the Patetown waterway from Batts Court, on the portage from Tar river. Google has recently upgraded the Patetown area to sharp photographic quality. The Slough was a location in England associated with the Petts, but I don’t know where it is.

On a hunch, I punched in The Slough, London, UK, on my computer. Sure enough, the Slough is a branch of the Thames River, just across The Horseshoe from Windsor Castle. Cabalism is alive, and well--and working.

Note that the nearest place to Slough, in London, is Langley. Langley (Long Land) is a family anciently, deeply and complexly connected with the Pates in the British Isles, particularly in Petworth, Sussex, and back in time to english Peytos and french Petos. For some genealogical connections, see:


For extensive and explicit Peyto and Langley ties to Plantagenets (who became Tudor patrons of The Pett Dynasty), see (Chapter: 070: Peyto):

The above site gives extensive information on the Thoroughgood family (Chapter 065: Offley), without any connection to the Soundex P-300 synonymy. Langley AFB is near to Yorktown, Virginia, where Thomas Pate built and operated a ferry on a large salt-water estuary. I need not note that a place called Langley is also the home of the CIA. Also, re Langley Space Center and modern Petts, see:

Langley is a community in greater Greenville, NC, on the north side of Tar River, just across the river from the community of Speights. There is a Stoney Creek that runs through Rocky Mount, NC, that is a branch of the Tar River. This gives us a (cabalistic?) trail of three different Stoney Creeks from New Kent County, Virginia, to Wayne County, North Carolina. I used to swim in Stoney Creek in Wayne County, NC. There are no stones in that Stoney Creek.

Obviously, the deeper in time we go (always backward) the thinner the Pate synonymy becomes, until we find ourselves among the Roman Paeti (pronounced Pate-y) of the Pisos, and the Paetus and Paats of Syria and Egypt--and ancient Phoenicia (homeland of the Patavian Padua (Soundex P-300) family) Venetians (and the Casa Paetus (French speaking Venetian Capets; see original ancient French of Marco Polo (Capolo) (key to origin of the Cabots)) and Joseph of Arimathea)--who ultimately became Lancastrian English royalty. Very complex. Historically the Lancastrian Tudors were the patrons of the shipbuilding Pett Dynasty. The most prominent folks now in Patetown in North Carolina are the Lancasters, all of whom are related to Pates.

De Witt was a given name of Patetown Pates (also known as Van Pelts (Lanen van Pelts) and Lanes, who were buried with Pates in the Old Pelt Graveyard at Patetown in North Carolina), a direct cabalistic tie to the Dutch House of Nassau of Protestant King William III of England, whose royal quarterings on coins was a scarcely veiled cross patee’. Part of the Old Pelt Graveyard was bulldozed out and used for fill on Patetown Road, at the junction of Pate's Branch and the Stoney Creek branch on the portage between the Slough and Neuse River at Calvin Pate's plantation. The cross patee' was an ancient symbol of Roman consuls and Syrian kings of the ancient Patavian (Sephardic Padua) Paetus family.

It is significant that Pettus is a surname used by Pett family investors in the Virginia Company in America. For explicit historical connection between King William III (Nassau-Orange), Ralph Lane and Samuel Pett, see:

Pates is a community that is now in Pembroke, North Carolina, where descendants of the "Lost Colony" (of which Ralph Lane was a member) settled, after migrating inland from Roanoke Island. The cross patee' was the symbol of this colony. Pates was a socially and racially integrated community long before legislation of integration. The community Pates antedated Pembroke many years in its founding, and it was the home of the Pate founders of the building supply and mercantile businesses that became Pembroke, who gave land on which was built Pates Normal School (photo of which may be enlarged by clicking) (talk) 11:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC):

Pates is located on a branch of the Lumber river, which is the northern branch of the PeeDee river, in the diocese of Primitive Baptist Bishop Charles Pate, son of Thoroughgood Pate, of Cashie River of Old Bertie County, home of Dr. Samuel Peete (whose relationship to Thoroughgood Pate is unknown). Dr. Samuel Peete was neighbor and associate of ship captains Hayes (see:, who were in-laws of Col. John Barnwell of Charleston, South Carolina.

Casual study of the areas in which North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia, Pates lived in the 1700's indicates that they were water travelers. Hayes and Monks Orchard are suburbs near Petts Wood in modern London. Pate sons of Thoroughgood Pate and Monks settled Patetown, North Carolina in 1713, title to which William Pate got in 1738, and conveyed to his relatives. The Monks were in-laws of the sons of Thoroughgood Pate, who moved southwestward to Newton Grove, in Sampson County, where descendants established the Our Lady of Guadeloupe Roman Catholic church. A merchant Thomas Pate (presumably of the Thomas Pate Archive) was associated with the Sampson (Sanson) family in the papal colony Livorno (Leghorn), Italy; from the book Merchants and Reform in Livorno 1814-1868 “Endnotes”, Chap. 5, Social Attitudes and Voluntary Associations, referenced on the Web at:

It is a curious fact that Sir Wiliam Petty would not live where his wife did not have access to a jewish synagogue. Leghorn was originally established as a Jewish papal colony. It became a shipbuilding center. Leghorn (now Livorno) is the home of the only naval academy in Italy. The nearest major city to Leghorn is Pisa (feminine form of Piso, ancestral gens of the Paetus family).

Earlier notes have referred to the Pate portage at Batts Court, on their migration from Cashie river in old Bertie County to Patetown. This is, I believe, a tie between the McGregors of Scotland and members of the Pate family who sojourned in Scotland, during a time of political strife in England. The Batts name may have been a political expedient that outlived memory of its origins. Many political refugees in Scotland found it wise to disguise their names.

Batts Court lies just south of U.S. Hiway 264, on the west side of Greenville, NC, on Stantonsburg Road, just east of the junction of Stantonsburg Road and Hiway 264. This area of Stantonsburg Road appears to be the route of the portage between Tar River Harris Mill Branch and Little Contentnea Creek, Pinelog Branch at Batts Court.

The portage at Batts Court was approximately one mile long, between Batts Court on Pinelog Branch of Little Contentnea Creek and McGregors branch of Harris Mill Branch of the Tar River. The Scottish names on the Batts Court portage suggest a possible Scottish connection of Pates of the Sandhills of the Carolinas and old Bertie County. Casual investigation shows that there was much intermarriage between the Pate and Harris families. Note that Christopher Pate of the Pett shipbuilding dynasty, is clearly identified with Phineas Pett at:

I have some doubts as to the exact location of the portage. Last week I did a ground recon of the channelized Little Contentnea Creek at Bell Arthur, just west of Greenville (colonial Oconerunt). Discussion with Bell Arthur firemen suggests that The Portage, over which settlers traveled from Old Bertie County to Patetown, was probably in the Bell Arthur area, near the junction of Stantonsburg Road and Bell Arthur Road (NC1206), where the Cobb Dail Road crosses U.S. 264. This is where Hurricane Hugo flood waters from Tar River flowed over land to Little Contentnea Creek. The Portage was probably the reason for the settlement of Bell Arthur.

We are losing many older site names as maps are re-written. The small waterway locations I give in reference to the Pate portage between Tar river and Little Contentnea Creek are not on Google Earth nor Microsoft Virtual World. For the older scottish names to which I refer above, see North Carolina Atlas & Gazeteer, Topo Maps of the Entire State, Delorme Mapping, Freeport, Maine, 1993, page 65.

The present Magnolia Creek was the access from Tar River to smaller branches that led to the portage to Batts Court. The western end of the portage would have been near where Mozingo Road now crosses Hiway 264 to intersect Stauntonburg Road. Mozingos now live in Patetown on land that was part of the original square mile of Patetown, conveyed by William Pate to his brothers and John Monk in 1737, near the south end of the airport runway and Pate’s Branch.

I Patealpate1 (talk) 08:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)conveyed this matter to Barbara Rawls, in the hope it might get university-level study. Magnolia Creek, at the eastern end of the colonial era Pitt County portage, runs through Rawls family property. The Rawls family descends from Whites, suggesting a possible tie between the Lanes (Lanen van Pelts) of the John White “Lost Colony” and the portage. Property at the Bertie County old Shipyard Landing on Cashoke Creek is now owned by members of the White family (relation to the Rawls, if any, unknown).

The Rawls family has connections to the Deans family of my paternal grandmother Abia Deans Pate, who is descended from John Currie Montague, who ran the saloon at the Neuse River steamboat turnaround at Smithfield, North Carolina. The old settler families of eastern North Carolina were much involved with ships and waterways. Montagues ran the English Navy during the Pett shipbuilding heyday.

The Hawaiian Islands were known to the Pett/Pate shipbuilders as the Sandwich Islands. They were so named after the Earl of Sandwich, John Montague. A colorful figure in the seas of Hawaii and California was ship captain and master Theophilus Patey, admiral of the Hawaiian Navy. Theophilus Patey was a dear friend of John Monk, ship model maker of the Deptford Yard of the Pett/ Pate shipbuilding dynasty, who was a settler of Patetown, North Carolina (and author of the Cacique Map in the London Records Office, which shows the Siouan tribes, which were deleted from John Lawson’s book New Voyage To Carolina). (talk) 19:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The grandfather of my grandmother Mary Abia Deans Pate was John D. Montague, whose main business was naval stores. Naval stores is the term denoting the pine tree products upon which the wooden ships navies depended in a wide variety of sophisticated scientific developments and activities. In the notes on the Deans family collected by Hugh Buckner Johnston, in the library at Rocky Mount, North Carolina, is reference to stills and worms that are essential in distillation of grog and turpentine, both vital to naval operations and maintenance. (talk) 09:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Northeastern North Carolina was conceived in the minds of its early settlers as the site of a new and greater Venice. Its developmental high water mark is the Roanoke River Canal at Roanoke Rapids. The Big Ditch dug by Major Isham Pate in Goldsboro, North Carolina, was a part of this dream, that was much stimulated by the development of the steam engine. This vision vanished with the coming of the trains built in Montague foundries and shops. (talk) 09:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Pates of Patetown, NC, are descended from John Peat/Pate (spelled both ways in records, son of Thoroughgood Pate) who is said to have been a Tuscarora war chief associated with Chief Blount of Oconerunt (now Greenville, NC). The Scottish clan of the Peat sept (family) is McGregor, a name on the cited DeLorme map of the portage area.

Specifics of relationships of Thoughgood Pate descendants with Newtons, Adams, Stuarts and Sinclairs are in the genealogical writings of Julia Claire Pate of Richmond and Anson counties in North Carolina, a copy of which is in The North Carolina Collection, Wilson Library, UNC, Chapel Hill, North Carolina.


Hertford was named after Hertfordshire, location of Chislehurst Wood, later known as Pett’s Wood, source of lumber for Pett (Pate) family shipbuilding in Deptford

Sorry, this can't be right. Chislehurst and Petts Wood were in Kent (now Greater London), not Hertfordshire. Pterre (talk) 13:21, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

FW: Pate History Synopsis‏ From: Albert Pate ( Sent: Fri 9/12/08 6:59 AM To: Laurence Gardner (


From: To: CC:;;;;;;;; Subject: FW: Pate History Synopsis Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 06:56:46 -0400

Dear Ms McGrath-

This is an addendum to the below, that ties up some loose ends in North Carolina and Pennsylvania history.

The Baker family was much involved with the Pett/Pate shipbuilding dynasty. A Theophilus Paty married an Elizabeth Baker:

This is a site that links Clampett (Paty de Clam) and Pate to Blount County, Texas. Blount and Pate (Peat) were surnames of Tuscarora war chiefs in Pitt County, North Carolina, where Pates were related by marriage to Ballards in the Bell Arthur area of the portage between Tar River and Contentnea Creek, on the route of Pates from Old Bertie County to Patetown via the channeled Slough from the Tuscarora capitol town of Torhunta. The Slough connects to Fort Run, that runs from Torhunta to the Tuscarora village of N'hooky (Neooherooka) on Contentnea Creek, where Joseph Pate of Patetown attended Quaker meeting.

The site of Torhunta was owned by Pates, before it came into the hands of Lancasters from the Tuscarora Mountains of Pennsylvania, by marriage of three Pate daughters of a Thadeus Pate to Lancasters.

This provides some signposts to those following an old cold Indian trail.

Thank you, again.

Albert F. Pate

From: To: Subject: Pate History Synopsis Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:54:26 -0400

Dear Ms McGrath-

Thank you for your kind receipt of my last note to you. I will copy you with no more irrelevant notes.

If you saved my last note to you, please replace it with this. In my last I failed to say several things central to the present state of things. Sad to say, I know I will never finish this troubling story.

My physician Dr. Christopher Pate is related to Creech’s and Battens of Rains Cross Roads and Pine Level west of Patetown, where he is descended from a Shadrach (“Shade”) Pate, who was a descendant of the Rev. Bishop Charles Pate, son of Thoroughgood Pate of Old Bertie County.

For a long time I have written about Pate North Carolina’s origins, in notes I have shared with you and others. North Carolina holds keys to the settlement and development of all of North America. Among the most interesting introductions to this is James M. Creech’s History of Greene County, North Carolina, published by Gateway Press, Inc., Baltimore, Md., 1979.

Mr. Creech’s History shows Dobbs County era links to the Joseph Greene who financed the building and operation of the ferry that operated between Calvin Pate’s plantation and the Whitfield’s White Hall plantation at the present Seven Springs. An Anthony Pate married into the Whitfield family, to which family Joseph Greene was also related by marriage.

I believe this Anthony Pate, a contemporary of Joseph Pate of Patetown, was the Anthony van Pelt of Dobbs and Greene County. For reasons that are unclear to me, the history of the Pelt family seems suppressed in North Carolina. The wife of Mr. Creech was Hester Pelt, but the Pelts are not given any study in Mr. Creech’s History. The same historical anonymity also extends to the Lanen van Pelts, from whom descend the Lanes, who figured so prominently in North Carolina history.

This may have to do with the historical problem of the reconciliation of myth of the Lost Colony of Sir Walter Raleigh with reality. We frolic superficially with it, but few dig into the backgrounds and motivations of the Roanoke Island colonists, that have links to Frisian Water Lords who still have conflicts of interests with the creators and custodians of official national and state historical doctrines--in America and Europe--that go back in Time to Babylon, Egypt and Syria.

How many North Carolinians know that Fayetteville, North Carolina has roots in ancient French Cabalism? Cabalism is all around us, hidden in old names that are near and dear to us. I live in Pikeville, North Carolina, where Pates were related to Irish Pikes. But the real meaning of Pikeville, to many Pikeville folks now, is as a memorial to Albert Pike, arguably the world’s greatest Cabalist, memorialized in a statue and Masonic temple in Wahington, D.C.

My wife, Leona Jean Blue Pate was descended from McNairs (and Devereaux) of Ozark, Alabama (and Robert Sims, who had been sheriff of Wilson County, NC, before he was sheriff of Dale County, Alabama) (talk) 13:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC), and Blues of North Carolina, whose descent settled the Florida Panhandle with Pates. Her grandfather was Gustavus (Gus) Blue, who settled Baker, Florida. I believe the Bakers of Baker, Florida, were of the descent of the shipbuilding Bakers, associated with Pett/Pate shipbuilders in England. My wife’s father was Leon Thomas Blue, whose mother was a Butler of the North Carolina blockade-running Butlers.

Leon Thomas Blue’s first given name traces back to the discoverer of the Fountain Of Youth, Ponce de Leon, which is near Pate Lake, Caryville and Pittman, in the Panhandle of Florida, settled by cattle-herding associates of Alexander Pate of Robeson County, North Carolina. My son James Leon Pate thus has a middle name that has roots in Sephardic Spain. Pate Lake is about a two-day horseback ride from the land grant from the government of the United States to the Marquis de La Fayette (The Faith), who the naïve believe freed us from the rule of England at Yorktown, in his management of the French fleet of Admiral De Grasse in the home of Pate shipbuilders on the Hampton Roads estuary.

The surname Lafayette is a cabalistic synonym of the family of Marie-Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, whose family were neighbors of the St. Amour (Holy Love) Payette family of the Haute Loire region of France, near the Geneva, Switzerland, home of the Calvin family, whose predestinarian faith drove the Primitive Baptist religion of the Pates/Paits (Payettes) of Patetown. Deeply hidden history is covered by this Cabalism. England showed in the war of 1812 it would not permit Fench and English royalists to establish a Creole commonwealth in what is now the southeastern United States. But we little acknowledge that we lost the War Of 1812 (in spite of Jackson’s exploits at New Orleans).

The Creole threat was made clear in the Freemasonry-sponsored tour of the United States, and adjacent territories, by General Lafayette. An important part of the French Creole program was the Indian Empire of Round-Headed Billy Powell, ancestor of the North Carolina Powells who founded Carolina Biological Supply Co., and Elon University (on the site of Primitive Baptist intellectualism)--and Gen. Colin Powell, who descends from the son of Round-Headed Billy Powell, Osceola Powell (mascot of sports teams of the University of Florida) of what is now Tallahassee, Florida.

The matters relating to the Powell family can be confirmed by Dr. T.E. Powell, III, president of Carolina Biological Supply Co., whose father, Dr. T. E. Powell, Jr., told me of the adventures of Round-Headed Billy Powell, and of the Peetes (Pates) who were neighbors of the Powells on the Roanoke River, in Warren County.

The material in this note was shared with Jean-Pierre Paats Williams, in the UK, about the New Christian Church in America, which grew as a non-denominational group, who accepted Jesus as Messiah, but who objected to the Roman Catholic Church, which they identified as an extension into our times of the faith and practice of the ancient mother goddess religion of Babylon, Egypt and the pagan British Isles. The New Christians’ church was mother to many Protestant faiths.

I’m getting into the “short rows” (as we of a Carolina’s farming background say) in my discussion of some observations about the history of the Pate family. Some Eurpeans will appreciate better than most Americans the points I make in this comment. The history of Europe is a long one of long religious wars, a famous one of which lasted at least a hundred years. We have in fact been involved in a religious war since Christians and Jews rejected Islam. European Templars eased the brutality of this religious war, by working with Islam in world trade before Globalization became a political buzzword.

But then, as now, the secret brotherhoods did not end religious conflicts, and to deal with it, our Pett/Pate ancestors built an English navy to wage war more effectively against Islamic Tartary Pirates, while supporting Islamic slave trade. In previous notes I have pointed out the secret ties of the Pett/Pate shipbuilding and seafaring family of England, Virginia and the Carolinas to the great geographer Gerhard Mercator. Lately I have said a bit about my wife’s Blue ancestors, among whom John Blue is a prominent name, generation after generation.

Historically, the most prominent John Blue is the Frisian geographer Joan (Johannes) Blaeu, author or publisher of the maps in Blaeu’s The Grand Atlas Of The 17th Century World, Published In Co-operation With The Royal Geographical Society and Barnes&Noble Books, New York, 1997. What is little noted is that Joan Blaeu was much involved in religious revolution, as were the Pates (in all the name’s spellings).

This is a subject that still causes us unease. Little is made of the fact that many (most?) of the Sephardic Spanish Dutch explorers and settlers of America were New Christians. New Christians were Jews baptized by the Roman Catholic Church, but many had serious reservations about their profession of faith. Some carefully and earnestly accepted Jesus as the Messiah, and set about to convert the rest of the world to their new religion. Some continued Jewish worship in the privacy of their homes. Some died for such indiscretions.

I recently shared with you information on an English Bishop Richard Pate, who was apparently involved in some religious conflicts in Holland. The Dutch geographer John Blue also had such involvements. For details of this see, “the Printing House of Dr. Joan Blaeu Behind The New Church”, by I.H. van Eeghen, in Theatrum Orbis Librorum, edited by T.C. van Uchelen, K. van der Horst and G.Schilder, Utrecht, 1989, pp. 402-415.

I have long hoped someone with a European historical perspective will develop better than I can the explanation of religious conflict in world history, and the evolution of the Paat name out of ancient Egypt and Syria--to Pett and Pate in the same Stepney Folk family in England. These are the same Stepney Folk out of whom came some of the world’s greatest explorers, inventors, industrialists, scholars, religious innovators, and political revolutionaries. We have yet to correlate the Stepney Folk in England with the French Huguenots, and the Spanish Dutch New Christians.

Pates settled Patetown in 1713, the year Thoroughgood Pate of Bertie County was killed. Charles Pate sold the Cashoke Creek shipyard there. Charles Pate was associated with John Pate and John Monk in Patetown in 1738, year of the patenting of Patetown, when the original square mile of Patetown was sold to the original settlers by William Pate, who was the youngest son of Major Thoroughgood Pate.

William was raised by his Chevin kin of Edenton, who gave him a better education and lifestyle than could be provided by his Patetown kin. William was able to get the title to Patetown through his association with the Chevins, who were kin of the John Chevin of The Lost Colony. The Pates (Peetes) of Bertie county were neighbors of the Hayes sea captain kin of John Barnwell of Charleston, South Carolina.

John Monk of Patetown was the Indian “Caccique” who was author of the map of the Carolinas in the London Records Office, known simply as The Cacique Map. The Cacique Map clearly shows the Nassau Indians location on the Neuse River, tying them to the Dutch royal house of Orange Nassau. Charles Pate and John Monk went from Patetown to Charleston, South Carolina, to get indemnity for the death of North Carolina Militia Major Thoroughgood Pate.

In Huguenot Charleston, South Carolina, Charles Pate was made Bishop of the “Welsh” Baptists of The PeeDee River Valley. Charles Pate there married Sarah Henderson, of the Henderson family who settled their own state in the French Broad River Valley, in association with French of the company of the Chevalier Ramsey. The Rev. Bishop Charles Pate then disappears and we find John Monk in association with the mysterious Theophilus (God Lover) Paty, the Pacific sea captain adventurer, who was a friend of the French governor of culturally Spanish California, where Patetown Lancasters settled the present city of Lancaster, California--and was an admiral in the navy of Hawaiian kings.

Lancaster, California, is the neighbor town of Rosamond (Rose (Pate, Paats) World). The Rosamondes of Europe are documented kin of the Frisian Paats. Patetown was a veritable funnel through which many families moved westward into the rest of America. For years I have suggested that the Lancaster family may be the key to much of this migration. For details of the Lancaster migrations, see The Lancasters--300 Years In America, by Bayard Lancaster Teigan.

I hope those of you who know more of the Pate family history than I do will share your knowledge with the rest of us. We need to air the skeletons in our closets, Thank you, again, for your attention to my comments on North Carolina connections to the rest of the world.

Albert F. Pate —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patealpate1 (talkcontribs) 11:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

please keep to topic[edit]

This article is about an influential family of Thames shipwrights. If American descendants could be linked in and were notable in their own right, that would be relevant, but the precise sources of information making the links should be cited. The mere assertion that the surname is similar would be mere original research. However, this is not the place for long genealogical discussions. There are numerous geneaological websites: that is the right place for that material. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In my past notes I have suggested that Petts (Pates) may have been Sephardim seafarers who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
Pates were much involved with Coree (Chicora) Indians of the area of the Sephardic Spanish Dutch colony of Vasquez de Ayllon in the PeeDee river valley of the Carolinas (named after Scottish King Charles of England), where they were in association with the Jacobs family of the Croatoan (now Lumbee) Indians, upon whom they depended in farming operations in Wayne County, North Carolina. This is detailed in my copyrighted manuscript At Your Beginnings, in the North Carolina Collection, in the Wilson Library, UNC, Chapel Hill, N.C..
In the turmoil of the years immediately preceding downfall of the Stuart Dynasty and the political intrigue of the times, a large Dutch Jewish merchant colony was discovered in London. These folks were suspected of plots and schemes to gain royal favor. It is significant that in 1680 Lord Anglesey suggested to Sir Henry Bennett (Robeson county Pate given name) that Sir Peter Pett should be made “’the Justitiary of the Jews’ to look into the entire legal question of Jewish residence in England”.
This information is from the book The Jews In The History Of England, by David S. Katz, Chapter 3, “From Readmission To The Revolution”. This matter related to the problem of Dutch Roman Catholic Jews (New Christians) involvement in Stuart Dynasty politics. Obviously Sir Peter Pett was deemed to be knowledgeable in the matter.
This I believe relates to the 1700s Pate involvement in the Merchants Association of the Jewish papal colony Leghorn (now Livorno). —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:45, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

This kind of speculation has no place in WP: see WP:OR. You have not proved that Pett=Pate. The appointment of Sir Peter Pett as Justiciary does not establish that he was a Jew or of Jewish descent. Please remember to sign your contributions. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


Record of the immigration to Virginia of the commander and master of the London ship the John & Thomas, identified as Mr. Thomas Pett, is at rootweb

The Complete Book of Emigrants, 1607-1776:

8 August 1650. Pass for the following ships to sail in convoy for


The John & Katharine, Mr. John Miller; the Charles of London, Mr. Thomas Wilson; the Honour of London, Mr. John Lorymer; the William & John Arthur of London, Mr. Nathaniell Jesson; the Margaret of London, Mr. Arthur Baily; the Peter & John, Mr. Nathaniell Cooke; the John &

Thomas of London, Mr. Thomas Pett; the Whitehorse & Currycombe, Mr. John Fox (PRO:SP25/I123/210).

The genealogically incautious might be tempted to identify this Thomas Pett with the Thomas Pate, who was the Yorktown ferryman in this timeframe. (talk) 15:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the above from the article page, because it is a comment questioning the content, not an appropriate addition to the article. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

This past Friday I visited Mr. Charles Pate at his home on Occoneechee Neck, in Northampton County, North Carolina. Mr. Pate's knowledge of his Pate family there only extends back to the Civil War, but he knows they were there long before that war, and that he descends from old Taylor and Stevenson families there. It seems worth noting, in the context of the statement of Mr. Charles Pate of Occoneechee Neck that he is descended from Taylors, and that the Taylors (as the old folks used to say) “had something”. The Taylors were millers in Northampton County. The old Taylor mill was not far from Pate’s (also spelled Payets and Peetes in Northampton County records) Delight property of Dr. Samuel Peete, on Potacasie Creek, on which is now the Doolittle Mill pond, of which history is not available from Mr. Jarvis Martin, the local historian in Conway. Further study revealed that the present Doolittle Mill pond is a renovation, by German prisoners of war, of the old Pate's Delight Mill Pond, named for United States Air Force General James Doolittle on anniversary of his raid on Tokyo.

My friend genealogist and historian Mary Spiron (nee’ Taylor) told me that it was Taylor family tradition that they were descended from Indians. We know from Mr. Charles Pate that he is descended from Taylors of the Occoneechee75.248.12.140 (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2010 (UTC) Neck of Northampton County, North Carolina. We also know that the Pett shipbuilders were related by marriage to English Taylors.

The Pett family history by Burke and Barron also shows that the Petts were also associated with the English Nuse family. Nuse is not a common English name, but it sounds a lot like Neuse, as in Neuse River, in North Carolina. At the time of Palatine settlement of New Bern on the Neuse, it was the home of King Taylor, Coree chief of the town called Cartuca.

That the people of King Tom Taylor of Cartuca were descended from Croatoan members of the Lost Colony may be concluded from the Congressional Report of 1914-1915, by Special Indian Agent O.M. McPherson. It precluded their classification as "Native Americans," with the benefits they would derive from this status. Hugh and Clement Taylor were both members of the Lost Colony, but it is not known which, if either, was an ancestor of King Taylor.

When John Lawson and Baron De Graffenried contracted for the settlement of Palatines in the geographically strategic site of Cartuca--now New Bern--in 1710, the people of King Taylor were initially pleased at the prospects of development of Cartuca. Their chief, King Tom Taylor, was maternally descended from Sir Manteo (knighted Lord of Roanoake and Dasamonguepeuk by Queen Elizabeth) and an English adventurer named Taylor, and they were pleased at the prospect of European neighbors.

After agreeing to the sale, on the night of the celebration of the sale of Cartuca to the Europeans, it became clear to King Taylor that Lawson had bargained away far more from the Tuscaroras than Taylor ever intended to sell. King Taylor pleaded for brotherhood and cooperation between the whites and the Indians, using the English dialect of the Raleigh colonists--in vain.

Much on the DeGraffenried settlement of New Bern, on the site of Chief (King) Core Tom Taylor’s Cartuca, and subsequent DeGraffenried settlement of America is at:

It is interesting that the DeGraffenrieds are related to the Bakers, with whom the Petts were associated in shipbuilding in England. The authoritative full text source on the settlement of New Bern is at:

“Baron Christoph von Graffenried, 1661-1743, Vincent H. Todd (Vincent Hollis), 1879-, edited by, and Julius Goebel, 1857-1931, edited by Christoph von Graffenried's Account of the Founding of New Bern. Edited with an Historical Introduction and an English Translation by Vincent H. Todd, Ph.D. University of Illinois in Cooperation with Julius Goebel, Ph.D., Professor of Germanic Languages University of Illinois. Raleigh: Edwards & Broughton Printing, 1920.”

This book is in English and German, and a copy of it is in the library of my cousin Audrey Todd Smith, at the Daniel Floyd Pate farm, now known as Somer Vale. Vincent Hollis Todd is of the Wake County Todds of Audrey’s first husband Dougi. The Todd seat was at Wendell, neighbor town to Rolesville, now a Raleigh suburb. Raleigh was founded by Lanes, with connections to Pelts (Lanen van Pelts) of Patetown. The Rolls family succeeded Petts in English shipbuilding, with Greens and Johnsons. (talk) 12:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

It is my opinion that Cartuca was the mother of Pembroke, North Carolina, which was originally known as Pates. According to De Graffenried, Taylor was mercilessly beaten, and thrown bodily from his home at Cartuca, on the night of the celebration of the Palatine purchase of the site that became New Bern. It is not surprising we are spared details of that night. (talk) 14:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)   The Northampton County Taylor Pate connection ties back into the North Carolina Pate Caswell family connection. From the will of Phineas Pett of Chatham we learned:,Taylor::pate::4043.html

“This will was proved 22 March 167$ [P.C.C. 27 Reeve], He was probably married three times. His first wife, Mary, was buried 20 October 1660 at Chatham. His second wife, Rabsey Caswell, was daughter of Richard Caswell, of St. Swithin's, London, a white baker, by Mary, daughter of Richard Slaynie of Shropshire, gent, (married to Richard Caswell 9 February i6i| at St. Michael's, Cornhill). Her marriage with Phineas Pett of Chatham is recorded in the herald's visita-tion of London in 1663. His third wife, Elizabeth, was probably Elizabeth Taylor of Charlton, who married Phineas Pett of Chatham 31 March 1668 at Greenwich.”

The genealogy and history of the Pett/Pate family of shipbuilders is in the article, THE BUILDERS OF THE NAVY, A GENEALOGY OF THE FAMILY OF PETT by H. Farnham Burke and Oswald Barron, from the public domain Google book The Ancestor (a magazine), A Quarterly Review of County and Family History, Heraldry and Antiquities, edited by Oswald Barron, F.S.A., Number X, July 1904. Published in London by Archibald Constable & Co., Ltd., on Web at:

The history of Pett descent in America is from Joseph Pett of Limehouse, which accounts for the movements of members of this family from Virginia to the Neuse River Valley in North Carolina, because of Pett/Pelt (Lanen van Pelt)/Peete/ Pate) (talk) 14:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC) family ties to the Caswell family in England. The English surname Caswell (also spelled Cashwell) is an ancient and famous one in North Carolina. A Richard Caswell was the first governor of the State of North Carolina. Caswell was preceded by colonial era governor Josiah Martin (surname of the captain of the ship Unity, owned by Arthur Pett in Virginia). The wife Sarah of Richard Caswell had the odd and interesting birth surname Heritage (Herritage). The wife of a Phineas Pett descendant of Joseph Pett of Limehouse was Rabsey Caswell. (talk) 11:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Spaight is another Pate synonym associated with North Carolina Gov. Richard Caswell, that may defy reconciliation with genealogies:

Spaights dominated the Contentnea waterways in colonial North Carolina, and then disappeared. (talk) 10:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Note the Pett/Pate association with millers and bakers, trades for which the Roman Paetus family was notorious for its concessions and monopolies. The Pate historical mill and miller tie goes back to the Edward Pate wind-driven mill in Chestershire in England (inspired I believe by Arthur Pett’s mill at Newport, Rhode Island), and on back presumably to ancient Egypt and Syria. The ancient Paetus family of Patavium (mother of Venice) had Roman wheat monopolies and state bread concessions, that were the envy of other Roman consular families.

Here we should note that Petts and Pettuses were investors in the Virginia Company. The old Roman Paetus surname was pronounced by the ancient Romans as Pate-us. The etymology of the surname Pate, as it derives from Latin Petti (Paeti) (talk) 09:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)surnames is developed in this “Discussion” of the Pett Dynasty. (talk) 10:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC) (talk) 12:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)