Talk:Planet of the Apes (TV series)

Urko's Title

Urko is not a general. His title, as stated in several episodes, is Security Chief. He is never called General Urko throughout the series. General Urko is a separate character from the cartoon series. Although the DVD box set calls him General Urko, that is a misprint that doesn't match what is spoken onscreen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.16.126.55 (talk) 17:26, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Similar incident?

Here is how a certain sentence in the introductor paragraph currently reads: "The series takes place in the same society, ten years after a similar incident." I originally thought that this was the crash from the first movie. I(t) could have been the crash from the second movie. But because the fifth movie is obviously from an alternate history (caused by the incidents of the third and fourth movies?) where humans could still speak, the attack on the human in New York took place earlier, and humans and apes were equals. We don't know which of these two parallel universes the television series took place in, or is it yet another one? (Did the humans regain speech? Did apes reassert their dominance? Did another time-travel incident occur?) We don't even know if the Dr. Zaius is the same one as in the movie, or another ape with the same name. With all of these variables, we can't say what the "similar" incident was. It's too bad that the series didn't last long enough for us to find out. Val42 05:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that the series takes place ten years after the original movie. How could it? The world was destroyed shortly after (Within a few months) Taylor's arrival by the Alpha/Omega Bomb. The series takes place in 3085 while the first two movies happened in 3955. By this fact alone, the series takes place nearly a thousand years befor the movies. Somewhere in this thousand year period, Humanity lost the power of speech. The Zaius from the series and the movies are similar characters but not intended to be the same being. The astronauts that Zaius refers to in the series are a group of people who landed ten years prior to the series and were killed by Urko. The identity of these astronauts has not been recorded. So, the space program has lost four space expeditions. 1. Taylor and his crew. 2. Brent and his crew. 3. Burke and Virdon. 4. The unnamed astronauts who landed prior to the series. Another point that needs to be made on the separation between the time periods of the movies and the series is that the ape society in the movie was on the East coast of North America. The series was clearly set in Southern California.(Bijou88 20:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC))

The similar incident is just another ship with humans crashing. We assume the humans were killed. That's the only mention of it. It's not suppose to be anything from the movies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.38.41 (talk) 10:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I would amend the earlier comment that the series is set in Southern California to delete "Southern". At least one episode (the one in which Urko and Virdon are trapped in a Bay Area Rapid Transit station) is clearly set in Northern California - Oakland, I believe. There are other episodes that mention Southern California locations. And, of course, the series was shot in Southern California. 72.229.31.22 (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

It probably was NOT Brent from Beneath, remember that Zaius never knew that he could speak. There's several possibilities:

• 1) Taylor's crew and there's a dating error (or an alternative version).
• 2) Perhaps the crew from the animated series.
• 3) Brent from the animated series (different from The 2nd movie)
• 4) Unknown crew.

CFLeon (talk) 18:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I've downloaded the first episode from YouTube. Virdon & Burke confront Zaius after escaping and ask him where the grenades used earlier came from. Zaius answers they came from another human- "he didn't live long enough to tell me his name." A bit later, "that Human I told you about... I had him killed- as I will have you killed someday."

Remember that Taylor had nothing except some ruined rags (I suppose that the apes may have gone back to the pond or even Taylor's spaceship & found bombs left there), and Zaius never saw Brent except in rags or knew he could speak. The incident was certainly made to sound like Taylor or Brent by the writers, but it's problematic. None of the dates that we know of for other ships fit- unless the reference is to later developments of the animated series past what was shown and there is a dating error in the scripts. CFLeon (talk) 22:54, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

In re-reading this, another possibility comes to mind: Landon from the 1968 movie. It fits better than the other possibilities offered. Perhaps Landon gave information that enabled the apes to find the equipment stolen at the pond (or even the spaceship) and that included some grenades. Although Landon's alive when we last see him, Beneath indicates that he has died (or been killed; he was definitely injured during the hunt): "... or stuffed in the Great Hall of the Zaius Museum- like his two friends."- Cornelius to Brent. Dodge was put in the museum because the apes had never seen a black human before; why would Landon be there? (Whether he died or was killed is probably irrelevant to this.) CFLeon (talk) 21:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Virdon and Burke Fate

From the excellent site:http://potatv.kassidyrae.com/galenslastappearance.html <Galen puts the finishing touches to the model he’s been making> And there you have it. And there YOU have it. Virdon and Burke? Oh, well, they found their computer in another city and disappeared into space as suddenly as they’d arrived. What about me? I certainly could have gone with them - back to your time, your world, er, where apes are kept in zoos. Tell me now, would you have come to my world, willingly? Hmm? <The shot changes to show Galen winding up a clockwork chimp> You will, eventually… of course. It’s only… a matter… of time. <Fade on a shot of a clapping human doll> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.161.47.105 (talk) 17:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:Potatv.jpg

Image:Potatv.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Chronology

The chronology in this article was tagged as a suspected copyright violation of the book Timeline of the Planet of the Apes on Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2008 November 30. I don't have access to that book, but infringement seems unlikely, unless portions of it were previously published elsewhere. The material was added to the article in 2006. The book is © 2008 Hasslein Books. However, the section was evidently original research, speculation based on viewing the primary source. I have removed it for that reason. If sources can be added, please feel free to restore it. We would need stronger evidence to validate copyright concern. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 03:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Continuity

Is it a safe assumption that the television series is not within the same continuity as the movie series? --RedKnight (talk) 13:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I guess the entry "an analog of the Dr. Zaius character from the original movie" indicates that is it an alternate reality, but the reference to a similar occurance 10 years earlier makes it confusing even thought the dates between the movie and series are different by about 900 years. --RedKnight (talk) 13:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)--66.110.6.119 (talk) 13:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I think that the series takes place in the same timeline as Planet of the Apes and Beneath the Planet of the Apes. In the first episode, there's a picture in a book of a human city from the 2500s. In the other timeline, the apes take over in 1991, so this book would not have been made. The There are nearly 900 years between this series and the first movie, just enough time for humans to lose their ability to speak. Counselor Zaius could be Dr. Zaius' ancestor. The similar incident that happened 10 years before the series could have been a different one from those in the movies. (unsigned)

We don't know if the apes take over EVERYWHERE in the 1990s- we only see one small area of an entire planet (and that area does not have communication with any others). (For that matter, we only see the New York City area in the 40th century.) There could easily have been scatted locations still under human control in 2500 or even later. CFLeon (talk) 22:54, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Episode timeline...

What is the point of this section? It doesn't seem to be addressing any continuity issues. I think that the synopses need to be put into the previous section and this one deleted, unless someone can find a point to it... Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I would tend to agree. Only thing is, I've been watching the series lately and there appear to be a number of (admittedly minor) continuity issues within the series itself which would suggest a viewing order different from the airing/DVD order. DigiFluid (talk) 00:07, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I've seen those on other pages. Could be OK as long as it doesn't get too ORy. 203.35.82.136 (talk) 04:17, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it COULD be alright. I tend to want to avoid it on the Wiki entry though, as Wiki articles should be for substantiated fact rather than viewer speculation. DigiFluid (talk) 06:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Timelines, Zaius, and Continuities

I'd like to point out that there are two distinct timelines in the original live-action films. The original timeline is composed solely of the original film and its sequel, Beneath. Cornelius and Zira's arrival in the 'present' in Escape does not create a causality loop as is commonly assumed. Cornelius and Zira tell the human authorities during their interrogation that a plague wiped out the dogs and cats five centuries from then, and that the first ape to defy human overlordship was a household servant named Aldo who said "no" to his master. Conquest and Battle show that the dog/cat plague came to Earth in the late 20th-century rather than the 25th; and that Caesar, the time-displaced child of Cornelius and Zira, was the one responsible for the ape uprising. It also showed us that Aldo, rather than being the 'messiah of the apes', was the first-ever ape to kill ape (who was subsequently killed in single combat by Caesar). Furthermore, Battle was framed in the 27th-century as the ape Lawgiver telling the story to a mixed crowd of both ape and human children, implying that Caesar's rule of the apes led to a more conciliatory world than the one that Taylor and Brent crashed on.

Regarding the TV series, I don't think there's any problem at all with regard to continuity. Taylor's clock readout in the original film reads 3978, but this is retconned by the first and second films to be 3955 (as well as being referenced in the extended cut of the 5th and final film). The intro of the TV series, as well as its first episode, very clearly state that this show takes place in 3085--nearly 900 years prior to the original film. I think the only issue of continuity that this series presents is whether it takes place as part of the original Planet/Beneath continuity, or whether it falls into the altered timeline caused by Escape/Conquest/Battle.

Personally, I feel that the TV series better fits into the continuity of the original film and sequel. Dr. Zaius in the original film was aware of human history, and was even referred to as 'the keeper of the terrible secret' by Taylor near the end of the film. This, plus the clearly throwaway line about a similar incident 10 years prior to the pilot episode, indicates that human astronauts arriving on ape-dominated Earth seems to be a somewhat frequent occurrence. As for the name Zaius being used in the original two films as well as this series, I really don't see how that's an issue at all. Rather, it appears more likely that it's a family name; and that the Zaius family is in at least two generations charged with protecting the secret of Earth's history.

Further, I think that the TV series is more likely to be part of the original timeline just because of the plight of humans in it. At the end of Battle (the alternate timeline), Caesar freed the humans to live as equals, and this appears to have persisted seven centuries until the Lawgiver's 'co-ed' class. Now, granted that a lot could have changed in the (potential) 4 centuries between then and the series, but I refer back to the original continuity again: Zaius in the original film states that humans were once kept as pets and slaves before it was decided that they could not be domesticated. This statement is in line with the state of humanity in the TV series; but the same can't be said of the ape/human relationship of the alternate timeline that we saw in Battle.

tl;dr version: the TV series makes more sense as taking place 900 years before the original film than anything else, and there really aren't any continuity issues to speak of. DigiFluid (talk) 23:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to add: the existence of two unique timelines appears to be affirmed by the packaging of the 40th-anniversary Blu-ray set of the 5 films. It folds out and has two colour-coded timelines for the original and alternate. DigiFluid (talk) 23:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that needs to be briefly noted here, with a longer properly cited section on Planet of the Apes (franchise). My one issue with your idea is IIRC, the humans in the series could talk which they couldn't in the original timeline. 203.35.82.136 (talk) 04:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that the two timelines need to be mentioned on this page, but I think maybe we should write in that it's unclear which timeline the TV series belongs to. I've said why I think it belongs in the original timeline here, but you're quite right in pointing out the mute human discrepancy. It's a pretty significant sticking point, even with the 900 year gap between this series and the original film. DigiFluid (talk) 06:29, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Remember, the apes are going by what they have in THEIR records- so there are probably some honest errors, such as the dating, Aldo's role, etc. As gorillas gained more power, they could have rewritten history to make Aldo rather than Caesar the hero, for instance. CFLeon (talk) 18:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Telefilms

I think we should list which episodes each of the telefilms contains edited versions of... 203.35.82.136 (talk) 04:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree, I noticed that and thought the same thing. Except that I don't know which pieces were used in creating which telefilms, so I can't do it ;) DigiFluid (talk) 06:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I listed the episodes that make up the 5 TV-edited movies. AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 01:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

2 air dates

Hi. I'd like to suggest LIBERATOR be listed as 12-6-74 and UP ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH as 12-20-74. Both are listed as such in PLANET OF THE APES AS AMERICAN MYTH (Eric Greene) and POTA REVISITED (Joe Russo). No book I know of lists UP as 12-6-74. Only the DVD cover lists this misinformation. DVD covers often list incorrect data. The DVD cover of ABBOTT & COSTELLO MEET THE MUMMY says there's a scene in the film where Lou's daughter spills water on him (there isn't). HORRORS OF THE RED PLANET's DVD cover lists Lon Chaney Jr. as being in it (he isn't). And almost all running times are wrong. I go by the 2 books I mentioned because both authors are interviewed on the Blu-ray documentaries and Greene is interviewed in BEHIND. On a personal note, which I know cannot be accepted here, I watched POTA as it aired and kept notes about it every week in my diary. My diary has LIBERATOR as 12-6-74; a rerun of ESCAPE FROM TOMORROW on 12-13-74; and UP on 12-20-74. CBS didn't rebroadcast any episodes (excepting ESCAPE FROM TOMORROW), so UP really was the last CBS telecast of any APES episode. If it is OK, I'll make these edits later. Thanks. Abbythecat (talk) 02:12, 1 July 2013 (UTC)AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 02:12, 1 July 2013 (UTC). PS - I've just made the edits, thanks all. Abbythecat (talk) 02:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 02:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

According to TV Guide listings published at the time, UP ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH was the episode scheduled on 12-6-74 and the repeat of ESCAPE FROM TOMORROW on 12-20-74. There was never any listing for THE LIBERATOR. The christmas special 'Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer' is listed for 12-13-74. While both Greene and Russo's books are very good, they don't provide any sources for their dating of the episodes. I would also add that just because a different studio got details wrong on the DVD covers of some of their films there is no logic to assume that FOX did as well. However, many fans do claim that they saw THE LIBERATOR on 12-6-74 and UP ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH on 12-20-74. But just as many claim that UP was the episode that aired on 12-6-74, repeat of ESCAPE FROM TOMORROW on 12-20-74 and that they never saw THE LIBERATOR until it aired on the SciFi channel in the 90s (which promoted it as an unaired episode) or until they got the DVDs. My suggestion would be to list both dates for UP with the notation that it aired in some markets on 12-6-74 and others on 12-20-74 and add a note to THE LIBERATOR stating that it only aired in some markets on 12-6-74 and never was aired nationwide during the series original run. SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

If nothing else the dates given on the DVD release are noteworthy. But I'll point out that TV Guide listings are not reliable as networks have been known to change their schedule after the listings are published, especially if that change was prompted by something in the news. The different dates on the DVD are currently noted. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not claiming that TV Guide listings are 100% reliable. You're right they are not. But they do agree with what was stated on the DVD which I would consider an official or primary source. Also, I'm not saying that the dates should be changed back to what's listed on the DVD. However, the article currently states that what the 12-6-74 for UP ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH is a mistake. The evidence is that it was the episode scheduled to air on that date and it did air in some parts of the country on that date while THE LIBERATOR aired in other parts. I think what is stated in the article should reflect that as well as that UP was aired in parts of the country on 12-20-74 that saw THE LIBERATOR on 12-6-74. I also think that the statement that ESCAPE FROM TOMORROW aired on 12-13-74 should be eliminated since every piece of evidence shows that CBS aired 'Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer' that night. SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

As the note says, if that were true, it would have been a rerun. Therefore it is not important, so I agree that last sentence can be removed. As to your other point - what sources other than fan recollections give different areas of the country seeing different episodes on the same day? That would be rather unusual in national broadcast network history. If there's no RS for that it should not be included. As it stands now the reader understands there is some disagreement on the airdates, which unfortunately seems to be the most we can document at the moment. If we do get a RS giving what actually happened, it should go in. I would like to know how and why CBS would split the airdates, if that is true. - Gothicfilm (talk) 20:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Well what sources other than fan recollections show that THE LIBERATOR aired at all. There is a primary/official source that says it never aired during the show's original run. TV Guide listings from the time have UP ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH on 12-6-74. The Greene and Russo books don't offer any sources for their dates. The book 'Timeline of the Planet of the Apes' by Rich Handley lists UP on 12-6-74 and states that THE LIBERATOR didn't air in the U.S. until it ran on the SciFi channel in the early 90s. And at the time the SciFi channel did promote it as the lost episode. However, enough fans over the years have claimed to have seen on 12-6-74 to conclude that THE LIBERATOR did air in some parts of the country that night. There are also as many to claim that UP aired that night and didn't see THE LIBERATOR until it aired on the SciFi channel or when the DVDs were released. As far as different episodes of a series airing in different parts of the country, it is not as unusual as one would think. Because of the various time zones in the country, network transmissions are broken into different feeds. While the East and West coast feeds are typically identical it has not been unknown for them to be different, due to a technical problem or a news event that occurs after 11PM EST. Something like that may have happened here. Now I'm not suggesting that the article be reverted to the DVD dates. I just think that a statement such as ""Up Above the World So High" is mistakenly listed as having aired on December 6, 1974 on the Fox DVD set." is too absolute and that the wording be more neutral. SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

It's unlikely that two different episodes were aired in different timezones on the same night. I wouldn't put that in the article without RS. All the sources seem to list one date or the other - none mention a split. But if all you want is to make that one sentence more neutral, I don't think anyone would object. I assume you also still want to take out the last sentence on the rerun. - Gothicfilm (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

OK if that is the case, my recommendation would be to revert to the dates from the DVD release since that is a primary/official source. The notes for each episode should then be adjusted to:

Notes: Several sources including the Fox DVD release cites "The Liberator" as an unaired episode. However, it is listed as having aired on December 6, 1974 in Planet of the Apes Revisited by Joe Russo, Larry Landsman and Edward Gross. Eric Greene's book Planet of the Apes as American Myth also lists it as airing on December 6, 1974. The book Timeline of the Planet of the Apes by Rich Handley lists it as unaired and states that it didn't air in the United States until the early '90s on the SciFi Network.

Notes: The FOX DVD release lists "Up Above the World So High" as having aired on December 6, 1974. TV Guide listings from December 6, 1974 have it as the episode scheduled to air on that date. However, several reference books disagree. Planet of the Apes Revisited and Planet of the Apes as American Myth state the episode aired on December 20, 1974 while Timeline of the Planet of the Apes cites the December 6, 1974 date.

Let me know your thoughts. SonOfThornhill (talk) 15:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The important thing is both sides be noted, which both yours and Abbythecat's do. Yours is closer to the long-standing version. For that reason, at this point I'd agree with you, with the minor modifications:

Note: Several sources including the Fox DVD release and the book Timeline of the Planet of the Apes by Rich Handley list "The Liberator" as an unaired episode. The Timeline book also states that it didn't air in the United States until the early 1990s on the SciFi Network. However, it is listed as having aired on December 6, 1974 in the books Planet of the Apes Revisited by Joe Russo, Larry Landsman and Edward Gross, and Planet of the Apes as American Myth by Eric Greene.

Note: The FOX DVD release and the Timeline book list "Up Above the World So High" as having aired on December 6, 1974. TV Guide listings from December 6, 1974 have it scheduled to air on that date. However, the books Planet of the Apes Revisited and Planet of the Apes as American Myth state the episode aired on December 20, 1974.

There you go... Gothicfilm (talk) 00:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Great! I'll make the changes based on your version. SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with the way it is written now, as it gives both sides of the story. I'd just like to add this comment on a personal note, not to change the episode guide. I'm sure many people will be able to identify with this: it is SOOOOOOO frustrating when you live through something, and you lived it and breathed it, and you made personal notes about it, and people still don't believe you. Yes, I know, no 'personal things' like diaries or memories can 'count' here, but I'll just say what I know to be the absolute 100% gospel truth that I swear to on my LIFE: LIBERATOR aired 12-6; a rerun of ESCAPE ran 12-13; and UP ran 12-20. I taped all episodes on little cassette tapes and I still have them. I've had LIBERATOR on cassette tape (sound only, I just hung the mike on the TV volume control and recorded sound from the TV set) since 1974. I dated the tape. Ditto UP. There's nothing else I can do to here; I've cited published books that verify what I'm saying. And, again, not to overdo the dramatics, (too late?), but I SWEAR on everything holy -- ON MY VERY LIFE -- that what I've said IS TRUE. Okay, got that out of my system. Up to you guys to do what you want now. But it is really so irritating when my word as an honorable person is doubted. Thank you. ~~Abbythecat~~

Not doubting your word at all. I beleive you saw THE LIBERATOR on 12-6-74 and UP on 12-20-74. I know many other fans who did as well. But I know as many who never saw THE LIBERATOR during the series original run and saw UP on 12-6-74. It is cleary to me that some CBS stations aired THE LIBERATOR on 12-6-74 and others ran UP that night. However, there is no RS to back that up. So we are left with a primary/official source that says one thing, which other sources agree with, and a couple of secondary sources that say something else. SonOfThornhill (talk) 03:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I guess it's best to leave it the way it is then. You are a gentleman, sir. Best. AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 04:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbythecat (talk • contribs) 04:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• I made a few edits that should please everybody on both sides of this issue. I also tossed in the 'telefilms' info as to which episodes were used. Abbythecat Abbythecat (talk) 02:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• I hope (in vain, no doubt!) that this remains this way, with no more edits on it. I think the way it is now gives 'credence' to both beliefs. As you yourself wrote, it is clear CBS did it this way. I think enough books 'prove' both sides of the case. It's a 'tie' if you will when it comes to references. You can't just dismiss MYTH and REVISITED; nor can you dismiss the DVD cover or TIMELINE, so this way gives ALL sources their just due. Now, if nobody edits it again, we all win. AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 02:16, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

All that was already in the article three days ago. As I said before, it's unlikely that two different episodes were aired in different timezones on the same night. All the sources seem to list one date or the other - none mention a split. Claiming both is WP:SYNTH. It doesn't belong in the article without RS.. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• I was agreeing with SonofThornhill, who I believe is correct when he states some CBS channels ran LIBERATOR on 12-6 & others never ran it at all; and some CBS channels ran UP on 12-6 & others on 12-20. This isn't unusual. The last 2 episodes of LOGANS RUN only ran on some CBS channels (see the issue of STARLOG that ran an episode guide for the show). Only a few NBC channels ran the last CLIFFHANGERS. The last FUGITIVE ran 8-29 on some ABC channels. Others got it on 9-5, with Conrad changing the date in the epilogue as proof of this. BTW, I checked on 'Hesslein Press', and it says (on their own site) it publishes "UNofficial" books about shows. This probably means it publishes 'fan-books', which explains why I never heard of TIMELINE. I almost always get free copies of any movie/TV book that is published by a 'real publisher' (for review purposes) and I never got one from them, which might mean we can forget TIMELINE. As to the DVD set, if you got the Ceasar-bust box (as I did) you'll notice no mention of LIBERATOR being unaired. So even the DVD packaging doesn't agree. Greene and Russo appear in the official APES documentaries (on DVD and Blu-ray) so Fox has given their books their blessings. There's no Richard Handley on the discs. Anyway, I've done the best I can with this, so if you want to change it go ahead -- I truly think the way it is now is best as it gives 'the full story'. But I can't stop you from changing it. And I'm not going to check this page every day for the rest of my life to see if it's been changed. I refuse to live in that kind of fear. So I've done my part. Best. AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 02:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• PS - just checked & it's gone already! Forget it. I quit. You win. AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 03:00, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry you took it badly, but it sounds like you didn't read the policy WP:SYNTH linked above. Until we get better sources on this issue, we cannot put speculation about what happened in the article. I hope a definitive source eventually comes forward. In the meantime, your efforts did result in improvements to the article over the last month. - Gothicfilm (talk) 03:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• I apologize for my childish reaction. One last thing then I'll let go. If you truly believe LIBERATOR was unaired on CBS, then why is it listed as #13? Wouldn't UP be #13 and LIB #14? Going by air dates, this would be true. All books list LIB as #13 and UP as #14 -- even the ones that list LIB as unaired. The DVDs present LIB as #13 and UP as #14. WHY would they do this if LIB never aired on CBS? LIB would be #14 if it was unaired. Also, as LIB did eventually air on the sci-fi channel in the '90s, then that would be its 'original air date'. For instance, the unaired GILIGANS ISLAND aired on TBS in the '90's, so that's its 'original air date' now, it is no longer 'unaired'. This would apply to LIB. So if you go by CBS not airing it, then LIB is #14 and its original air date would be whatever day it first aired, on either sci-fi channel or in another country. It certainly would not be #13 going by air date order. If you are going by 'production order', then note so. OK, now I'm bowing out, but I hope you'll consider the logic of this. I hope you'll find a 'definitive source' that you will accept (I don't need any more sources, I know the truth, I lived through it). And thanks for the kind words. I didn't mean to cause any trouble. Hope nobody took offense. Sometimes I come on too strong because I've been in the field of writing, movies, TV and radio since I was a child, and came back into it as adult after graduating college in '75, and I've been working in said fields since '76, so I sometimes take it too hard when 46 years of my life's work is questioned. Anyway, thank you (and everyone) for all your kind efforts & time. Best. AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 23:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• PS - if you want to list the eps. in production order, here is the correct production order, according to the DVD booklet (copyrighted 2001 by Fox). Notice the pilot wasn't the first one filmed. 1. GOOD SEEDS #B-501

       2. GLADIATORS  B-502     
       3. ESCAPE F.T. B-503    
       4. LEGACY      B-504    
       5. TRAP        B-505    
       6. CURE        B-506    
       7. LIBERATOR   B-507    
       8. T.'S TIDE   B-508    
       9. SURGEON     B-509    
      10. DECEPTION   B-510    
      11. HORSE RACE   B-511   
      12. INTERROGATION B-512  
      13. TYRANT       B-513   
      14. UP           B-514   

If you think this info should be put on the article page, fine by me. Eps. should either be listed by production # order or by air date order. If going by air date order, UP should be changed to #13 and LIB to #14. Hope this helps. AbbythecatAbbythecat (talk) 23:51, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I considered the same thing. For me, episodes should be in the order they were intended to be seen. That's what's most useful for the reader. Normally that would be the order they aired. (Production order can be deliberately out of story order/intended air-date order, as it was here.) In this case the intended air-date order was apparently disrupted. I've seen other WP episode lists with disrupted air-dates that still put them in intended air-date order, which is best for people who want to see the show in proper order on DVD or other means of the present day. So the list is best in the order it's currently in.

The Sci-Fi Channel airing was more than a decade later, as you know. The note clearly makes the reader aware of this. I thought of putting "Originally unaired" with a note, but that seemed a little verbose. Now I'll go and do it, with hopes of putting this issue to rest - at least until a more definitive source comes forward. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Abbythecat, it is not that anyone doesn't beleive you. The opposite in fact. Is is just that there is a higher standard here and there should be. I reliable source is needed. Right now there is a primary source that says one thing, supported by several secondary sources, and two secondary sources that say something else. Without a RS, the best that can be done is note the dispute among the sources in the article which has been done. SonOfThornhill (talk) 11:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

3rd astronaut?

What was the 3rd astronaut's name? I recall that they called him something like "Jonesy", but it's been more than 40 years since I've seen the episode.CFLeon (talk) 18:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I found the episode on YouTube. They do call the third guy "Jonesy" (spelling assumed). Unfortunately, the credits are cut, so I don't know who the poor actor was that had to pose like that for who-knows-how-long. He's not listed at IMDB (probably because no spoken lines on-screen)- anyone know who the actor was? CFLeon (talk) 02:41, 3 April 2016 (UTC)