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|Current status: Good article|
|Wikipedia Version 1.0 Editorial Team / v0.7||(Rated GA-class, Mid-importance)|
|This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise), and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without consensus.|
- 1 Jupiter clarification
- 2 Flames
- 3 State of matter
- 4 Removed ball lightning
- 5 Definition in Introduction
- 6 Comparison to the gas phase
- 7 What about the CRT
- 8 '...Even black holes' (disapprove of this description)
- 9 secondary plasma field
- 10 plasma field interaction to create motion
- 11 Nuclear Pasta
- 12 Contradiction?
- 13 A Conditions of Plasma
- 14 Heat transfer
- 15 Disputed - "Plasma is the most abundant form of matter in the Universe, because most stars are in a plasma state."
- 16 Multipole resonance probe
- 17 Meaning of "definition"
- 18 Plasma parameter
- 19 US or British spelling?
- 20 Wording question
- 21 Chemist begs to differ, apart from much clearer, further substantiation
- 22 Recombination?
- 23 "Science Fiction" section should be removed or rewritten
- 24 Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2016
- 25 Requested move 10 March 2016
- 26 Scope of "space plasmas"
- 27 Potentially incorrect statement in 2nd paragraph - need a physicist to confirm
- 28 Good Article Reassessment
- 29 External links modified
- 30 WP:OWN violation
- 31 Working on the lede.
- 32 Request for comment
- 33 State of matter v. Plasma (physics)
- 34 "Does not freely exist" mention in the lede
- 35 Reorganised text.
- 36 Sentence change
- 37 New lede proposal
- 38 RfC on the lede, started anew
- 39 The metaphor with jelly
- 40 Plasma approximation (and confusing text found in that section)
- 41 Incorrect statement of fact.
- 42 Lede
"The planet Jupiter accounts for most of the non-plasma within the orbit of Pluto (about 0.1% by mass, or 10−15% by volume)."
0.1% certainly isn't "most". Is this trying to say something about local density? Or should it talk about the percentage excluding the Sun? Or the percentage of mass excluding plasma, and note that the Sun is plasma?
Unfortunately I can't edit this page myself. Too bad, but I hope someone will read this and do the correction.
In the "common forms of plasma" we have "Some extremely hot flames ".
First of all - the citation can be found in the "flames" article: 
Secondly, that citation doesn't claim that only "extremely hot flames" are plasma, but rather that ALL flames are plasma, including the flame of a candle: "What about fire? The flame of a burning candle is ionized, as we now know, and thus a plasma". So the article should be corrected by replacing "Some extremely hot flames" with "The flames of a fire (even candles)". 18.104.22.168 (talk) 10:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that this should be fixed. There's a nice YouTube video called "Electric Flame" (linking to youtube is so complicated). It demonstrates that flames contain ions. Tadmuck (talk) 19:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
State of matter
I didn't see any citation for plasma being a forth state of matter. I came here looking for evidence of it but all I could find was a table that seems to be trying to show that it is a 4th state but it's not very convincing. Specific question I am left with: If gases become plasmas when they are ionized, why do liquids not have a separate state of matter when they are ionized? Calling plasma a separate state of matter seems premature since they are apparently still being heavily researched and it also seems like something self-important physicists would claim, hence why I am looking for the actual citations.
Also, why is this article restricted to (physics)? shouldn't it also have a (chemistry) entry or preferably none of these parentheses at all? esp. given its status as 4th state of matter it would be of interest to students of chemistry22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
- "State of matter" is not such a well-defined concept that everyone agrees on what is or isn't a separate state, and consequently it isn't of central importance to the physical sciences. There is a disambiguation article on Plasma, without parentheses, but chemists will be interested in the same definition of plasma as physicists. Art Carlson (talk) 07:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
And should be considered the "First" state of matter, not the fourth - since even in Big Bang cosmology the first state of matter was plasma. So shouldn't we call it what we really believe it to be? Steven J White (talk) 13:48, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Removed ball lightning
I have removed ball lightning because the page linked doesn't even say what it is, so we can't say it is plasma. From the page: Ball lightning is an unexplained atmospheric electrical phenomenon. The term refers to reports of luminous, usually spherical objects which vary from pea-sized to several metres in diameter. It is usually associated with thunderstorms, but lasts considerably longer than the split-second flash of a lightning bolt. Many of the early reports say that the ball eventually explodes, sometimes with fatal consequences, leaving behind the odour of sulfur. [23 May 2006] Iæfai (talk) 02:52, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- You should put it back, being as we know it is an atmospheric electrical phenomenon - and only plasma's are highly electrically conductive in gaseous states. Steven J White (talk) 13:53, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Definition in Introduction
Not to nitpick but since this is a physics-related topic and a certain amount of "rigor" might be expected, I wonder if it might be more appropriate to say that plasma is a *kind* of matter, or *form* of matter; rather than a "state of matter." After all, plasma is an actual "physical substance" with mass, electrical charge, etc., it's not just a state, it's the actual matter itself. "State of matter" implies that Plasma = state - - but Plasma *is* matter. I only mention it since, like I said, it's a physics-related article and a certain amount of "rigor" might be appropriate.
- I think "state of matter" is more appropriate, similar to its use when describing solids, liquids and gases. They could also be argued to be "kinds" or "types" of matter, but we are describing the state of matter here. --Iantresman (talk) 22:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Yet in cosmological theory, plasma was the first state of matter to exist - and 99% of the universe "still" exists in this state. Still has not condensed into states of matter that have equal numbers of protons and electrons - solids, liquids and gasses - to which it behaves nothing like. It is the most unique "state" of matter there is, to which nothing else can be compared.. Steven J White (talk) 13:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Comparison to the gas phase
In the section "Comparison of plasma and gas phases", the text reads that plasma ".. is closely related to the gas phase in that it also has no definite form or volume".
One of the characteristics of plasmas, is that it may indeed have both definite form and volume, eg. filamentation, the stars, heliospheric current sheet, etc. Should we reword, or find a different similarity? --Iantresman (talk) 22:59, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree, which is why I protested when they took out the part about it having a behavior uniquely different from gas. Plasma (highly charged matter) has nothing in common with "neutral matter." We don't even use the same physics to describe each one. Steven J White (talk) 15:08, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
What about the CRT
Does a cathode ray tube, or for that matter, any vacuum tube have a plasma? I like to saw logs! (talk) 06:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC) according to deffinition, yes. it is ionized gas--126.96.36.199 (talk) 17:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
'...Even black holes' (disapprove of this description)
Even black holes, which are not directly visible, are fuelled by accreting ionising matter. This is a weird assertion; that black holes are 'fuelled'. I cannot find any support for that idea in the reference either. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 06:39, 21 April 2013 (UTC) BGriffin
Simply charged particles orbiting a common electromagnetic center - not particles orbiting a point object of zero volume. See 2:23 timeline in the following.
- Steven, If you think you see a way to improve the article, then please improve it. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 15:24, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
secondary plasma field
when a secondary plasma field is generated by the interactions of certain metals and the primary plasma field ,a wide variety of observable phenomenon,may be viewed.finer metals and meshes work the best as hard or dense metals absorb to much themselves. the particular interaction between steelwool and stainless steel and the secondary field should be done under controlled conditions, as the steel wool will combust. the interaction with carbon to absorb ,ie your radio station signal within a reasonable distance to secondary field 12 feet or more. a third plasma reaction with yet a third gas will definitely bring more interesting observation. Ronald sykes 184.108.40.206 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
plasma field interaction to create motion
With the use of a simple glass plasma globe,filled with various gasses,and the interaction with a non magnetic stainless steel mesh,wrapped over said globe, the interaction with the cosmic fields around us and outside earths vacume can be observed. with the use of common diodes and some newer materials ie. the new dimmer switches ,paired, a dual high voltage generator, a secondary evacuated gas tube,a 1 to 1 induction transformer and various arangements of capacitors,diodes and resistors, to create a varying field . this varying field effect will interact with a magnetic field,causing a varying flux, creating an observable up and down motion, if components are poised properly.although plasma interaction with the stainless steel requires a source of negative ions to perform the said function,this problem can easily be solved either by holding the ground source your self,as the human body is a type of plasma,the use of a ground wire to earth, or another source of non magnetic stainless steel.Ronald sykes (talk) 22:52, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
The article refers to the electrons in a plasma as not actually being "free":
"It is important to note that although they are unbound, these particles are not ‘free’."
But the electrons are later referenced as "free electrons" here:
"The term "plasma density" by itself usually refers to the "electron density", that is, the number of free electrons per unit volume."
A Conditions of Plasma
Disputed - "Plasma is the most abundant form of matter in the Universe, because most stars are in a plasma state."
I was going to add a disputed tag, but I'll just post it in the talk page first and add it if I get no responses here. This statement says it is the most abundant form of matter, but I'm pretty sure that title goes to "dark matter" or "dark energy," which while not characterized well in physics, has for more mass in this universe than regular matter we can see. Since we can only see it's effects on regular matter it may have been discounted. Maybe a qualifier should be added, like excluding dark matter and energy, or "regular matter," unless there is a more suitable term. If you disagree let me know why it should be called the most abundant form of matter.Wgfcrafty (talk) 07:22, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- You're right and wrong(?). I think yes, that plasma is the most abundant, non-dark matter. As I understand, dark matter (and much else in physics, particles/constants etc. cosmological constant) are "invented", to make the data fit the theory. "dark matter" is a huge unexplained gap. It may or may not be needed. I just recently saw that (could look it up), that "dark matter" may after all, be explained by some non-exotic particle after all.. One other, is Modified Newtonian dynamics (MOND) that I think is an older alternative, that fits the motion of galaxies, but may not "explain".. I think it is not saying exotic "dark matter" is needed.
- Dark energy (the cosmological constant?) is however not matter and thus doesn't enter into this. comp.arch (talk) 09:48, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Multipole resonance probe
The wiki needs a new article about the multipole resonance probe, developed by a group of scientists at the Ruhr University in Bochum Germany. It is a new diagnostic approach for plasma measurement.220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Meaning of "definition"
In section 1.1 it states:
A definition can have three criteria:
Does this mean that the following three "criteria" must be met for the system to be called plasma? If so, this should be stated directly.
Note also that the three "criteria" are not binary tests (the usual meaning of criterion), but ratios that must come out large in order for it to be considered a plasma (assuming this is the intention). Then being a plasma is a matter of degree, and this should be reflected in the language chosen. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 09:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I flagged the phrase "plasma parameter" in two places. It is used in two different senses - in the first case as the particular ratio Λ, in the second as any of several numbers. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 09:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
US or British spelling?
At the top of the article it states --THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN STARTED IN US SPELLING. PLEASE KEEP PER WP:ENGVAR --
Actually, it wasn't. The first version appears to use British English. The clue is the spelling of "behaviour".
Under the heading Thermal vs. Non-Thermal Plasmas, there is a sentence: "Non-thermal plasmas on the other hand have the ions and neutrals at a much lower temperature..."
Chemist begs to differ, apart from much clearer, further substantiation
I have read here, and elsewhere at WP, that it is common knowledge that plasmas are a forth state of matter, alongside s-l-g. Like an earlier reader, I reply that the article does not make this clear, from a scholarly perspective—I do not see the substantiation, that there is acceptance, broadly, across the relevant fields—which include chemistry of all stripes—that plasmas should be considered and taught as a fourth state.
Perhaps differences between my and others asking this before me are that I am a chemical professional, active in research, teaching, and writing, and that I see the following, seemingly clear conundrum:
If the heating, EM field, laser, or microwave perturbation required to create a plasma "decreases or increases the number of electrons, creating... ions"... [a process] that "is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds present"[ref name="Sturrock"]… [emphasis added], then this is not a physical change of state at all, but rather a clear chemical reaction whose atomized products present very unique and seemingly (cosmically) very important physical properties. Illustrate it generally how you will, promote it how you will, there is no plasma state of aspirin, and converting aspirin to a CHO plasma is not a physical change of the state of this matter—though the same 2-(acetoxy)benzoic acid does enter the liquid state at 135°C (its m.p.), and can be taken without decomposition into the gas phase using electrospray MS methods. So, at first glance to this chemist, this purported general change of gases to plasmas is not a [general, accessible, real] fourth general physical state of matter. And if I see this, in passing here, I can guarantee that there are colleagues of mine who, on hearing of this "pitch" for the implications of plasma research, have already commented similarly, in print.
Moreover, like other such topical matters at WP that appear repeatedly in articles because it is someone's favorite subject, "plasma as four state" is not verified, broadly, where the claim appears in WP articles, from the required secondary sources—including chemical. It it can be done, so it is clear that all the physical chemists everywhere ascribe to this, then include the array of best citations wherever the claim is made. If it cannot be made so unequivocally among academicians—as I am guessing must be the case—that is, if there is a static preponderance of expert opinion that is not in full agreement to this "four states" paradigm/conceptualization, then it ain't so (current representation does not cut it). If this is the case, the other expert opinions need to be stated here also, even if in the minority of those writing about it. We are not to present something as a done deal, when there are expert "hold outs".
Otherwise, note, citing of self-published academician course notes as sources—this does not help the case for persuasion at all. Reply here as you will, and I will hold breath to hear how I am fundamentally misguided. Cheers. Le Prof [a chemist who has experienced three states, for >50 yrs] Leprof 7272 (talk) 01:13, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you for writing this. It allows me to think of plasma in a different light. As well, do you have an opinion of supercritical matter? Could that be considered a fifth state? Wavyinfinity (talk) 20:01, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
When a gas is heated or subjected to strong EM radiation it ionizes. That is clear to me. Why is there no mention of plasma recombination, meaning that when it cools it will go back gaseous state and release heat, an exothermic reaction? It is like talk of water being vaporized only to produce water vapor, but condensation... nope. Rain doesn't exist.Wavyinfinity (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Plasmas generally have both ionization and recombination processes happening simultaneously, leading to an overall degree of ionization, as described in the article. Unlike the liquid-air case, there is no first order phase transition between ionized and recombined constituents. --Mark viking (talk) 00:40, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
"Science Fiction" section should be removed or rewritten
It's really misspelled too. "String physicist Michio Kaku thinks that plasma saber is the closest practical possibility of awesome weapon cause we can't have star wars light saber. However lots of research and work is required before we can realise that. We would need the power source to be extremely mobile something you can expect to not see for at least 20 years and the materials that can withstand extreme temperatures .These materials(ceramic fibres) exist but major modifications and improvements are needed. The plasma would be controlled by electromagnetic waves. A simple solution is to wound coils around it and pass current so that it is contained by magnetic field." It looks like a child wrote this thing. Somebody get it outta here. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2016
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
The "Science fiction" section should be removed - it's poorly-written, unsourced speculation.
Requested move 10 March 2016
Scope of "space plasmas"
Please see Talk:Astrophysical plasma#Scope of "space plasmas". Thanks. fgnievinski (talk) 16:04, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Potentially incorrect statement in 2nd paragraph - need a physicist to confirm
Hi this post is about the second sentence of the second paragraph in the article which states:
"This decreases or increases the number of electrons, creating positive or negative charged particles called ions, and is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds, if present."
Unless my understanding of physics is horribly wrong, electrons are neither created nor destroyed when a gas is ionized. Rather the electrons are stripped away from one species and held by another. The total number of electrons in a given sample would be conserved through the ionization process to create a plasma from a gas. I'm aware that interactions between lone electrons and lone protons could change the total number of electrons present but from what I understand that's not the driving mechanism behind ionization and the effect of those interactions would be relatively small.
Can a physicist weigh in here and confirm or refute my point? Thanks and have a nice day everyone!
- I am no physicist, but maybe a "free" or "unbound" is simply missing before "electrons"? I.e. the number of free electrons changes, and not the number of electrons. Jhertel (talk) 07:45, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- I now changed "This decreases or increases the number of electrons" to "This decreases or increases the number of electrons in the atoms or molecules". I think that brings more sense into it and clears up the ambiguity. It can still be phrased better, though. Jhertel (talk) 08:16, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Good Article Reassessment
It has come to my attention, after I've translated this article to Chinese, that it really no longer satisfies the GA criteria. My main concern is in the lack of inline citations, or just sources in general. Unsourced are the sections Ranges of parameters, Temperatures, Complete vs. incomplete ionization, Plasma potential, Comparison of plasma and gas phases, Common forms of plasma, Shocks or double layers, Electric fields and circuits, Critical ionization velocity, and Mathematical descriptions. The section Research was also just pulled from some non-authoritative website. There are too many dead links. I'm even slightly embarrassed to nominate it for DYK on the Chinese site. Whereas the general prose of the content seems fine, the article, which was mostly written and made GA in 2006, no longer meets the other criteria Wikipedia has come to develop. I've added the GAR request tag and look forward to the result. Yinweichen (talk) 22:50, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed. This article is a mess, which continues to tack on mostly irrelevant or of marginal importance subject material. Not all verifiable material is necessarily relevant to this article. You are justified to removed non-conforming material here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:24, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
- @Yinweichen and Arianewiki1: Plasma (physics) has been nominated for community good article reassessment (link -KAP03(Talk • Contributions • Email) 01:25, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
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For whatever reason Arianewiki1 is choosing to violate WP:OWN. For the record "non-consensus edit" is not a wikipedia policy. In fact there is a policy that specifically forbids that: WP:BOLD. It is inappropriate to revert edits without a specific reason, and the fact that an editor has not asked for permission is not a valid reason.
If there is a specific concern, please state it. Otherwise please find some constructive way to contribute to Wikipedia.
- The whole process of edit Wikipedia basically boils down to this, someone (you) makes a bold edit, others will review the edit and possibly revert it for whatever reason, you then discuss the edit. In this case, @Arianewiki1: seems to be just as justified in making the revert as you did for initially making the edits. I see no ownership issues here. Sakura Cartelet Talk 01:18, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- Disagreement isn't the same as ownership. Focus on the content, not the editor, here on the article talk page. And yes, WP:ONUS is policy. VQuakr (talk) 01:20, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- What nonsense. Boldness is one thing, but it has to be correct and make sense. Also "has not asked for permission is not a valid reason." I have said no such thing. Consensus is not asking permission in any sense.
- That does not simply define plasma at all, and is so over the top, it utterly confuses any reader. (Even the given cite is 1974.) Frankly, the better definition is that plasma are atoms with significant number of electrons removed. A dictionary definition is like: "An ionized gas consisting of positive ions and free electrons in proportions resulting in more or less no overall electric charge, typically at low pressures (as in the upper atmosphere and in fluorescent lamps) or at very high temperatures (as in stars and nuclear fusion reactors)."
- You also removed the text + cite "from Ancient Greek πλάσμα, meaning "moldable substance" πλάσμα Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek–English Lexicon, on Perseus or "jelly") " Complaining "Statement a tad confusing (and maybe misleading)" Say who? Where is the consensus for this?
- Your complaint "Lead sentence should provide an actual definition of the topic." Yes, but it should be comprehensible too.
- Get consensus, and explain yourself, which is what this article's Talkpage is for. Thanks. Arianewiki1 Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- @188.8.131.52: You wrote here "For the record "non-consensus edit" is not a wikipedia policy. In fact there is a policy that specifically forbids that: WP:BOLD. It is inappropriate to revert edits without a specific reason, and the fact that an editor has not asked for permission is not a valid reason. ...If there is a specific concern, please state it. Otherwise please find some constructive way to contribute to Wikipedia."
- Actually WP:CON says: "When editors do not reach agreement by editing, discussion on the associated talk pages continues the process toward consensus." and "When there is no wide agreement, consensus-building involves adapting the proposal to bring in dissenters without losing those who accepted the initial proposal." I wrote in the reason for the revert. "Please use talkpage for further edits." That is Wikipedia policy.
- It also says WP:BOLD "Don't be upset if your bold edits get reverted." It also says: "On controversial articles, the safest course is to be cautious and find consensus before making changes, but there are situations when bold edits can safely be made to contentious articles. Always use your very best editorial judgment in these cases and be sure to read the talk page."
- As for "It is inappropriate to revert edits without a specific reason..." Says who? I've explained it.
- "...and the fact that an editor has not asked for permission is not a valid reason.". Show where I have said this please. 'Consensus' does not mean 'permission'.
- "If there is a specific concern, please state it." I now have.
- "Otherwise please find some constructive way to contribute to Wikipedia." Considering your claiming WP:OWN and that I historically spent some time stablising this page, then this statement is somewhat contradictory. (Is what I think you are implying is that you just want me to get out of your way.) Really WP:PA does not help get consensus.
Working on the lede.
Somewhat independent of the discussion going on above, I do find the first paragraph of the lede inadequate for defining the subject of this article. In reading the first paragraph, the reader is left wonder what plasma is. "Jelly"?, well, obviously not. Perhaps we can use something like "Plasma is a special kind of ionized gas and in general consists of positively charged ions, electrons, and neutrals." -- Taken largely from this intro article:  (not my definition). Note that some of this appears in the second paragraph, so we might rearrange material from there. Thoughts? Attic Salt (talk) 03:39, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- "Plasma is a special kind of ionized gas and in general consists of positively charged ions, electrons, and neutrals." A definition of plasma is difficult issue and not simple, because as a form of matter its behaviour is different than an ionised gas. In fact, the difference is by the amount of ionisation, which varies depending on the environment. In this case the electrons are separate from the highly positive atoms, acting like suspension aka jelly . (neutrals are what... Neutrons? Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Assuming that the first paragraph should provide some definition of "plasma", I suggest that some of the defining sentences in the second paragraph be moved up to the first paragraph. Attic Salt (talk) 03:22, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose. Look. I made the change on the 2nd Feb 2017 that added the definition of plasma which is here. Introduction of the first sentence was changed on 24th February, which added a reference to the origin of the name plasma here. The logic of the text is as follows:
- Paragraph 1 : This explains the name origin, then expresses it is the fourth state of matter, and it differs from the other three, because it does not naturally exist on Earth and can only be artificially generated. (All properly cited.)
- Paragraph 2 : Expands the concept by explaining sources and examples of either partial ionised plasmas and fully ionised plasmas: Then says plasma production produces electriv field then magnetic fields.
- Paragraph 3 : Differenciates between chemical ions and plasma
- It is written to build up the nature of plasma in a logical order for a complex subject and summarises the order in which it appears in the main text of the article's page. I changed it becauqse the main text is very technical and complex. If you moved the second paragraph to the first one or second sentance, but you can't get past "...although the true technical transition between the two is mostly a matter of nomenclature and subject to interpretation." Putting that in the lead paragraph would confuse things, so ot is better to develop the concept about forms of plasma is a way that is simple to complex.
- By saying "I suggest that some of the defining sentences in the second paragraph be moved up to the first paragraph." I would simply disagree entirely, only because it adds no information that plasma is principally the 4th state of matter and differs from the others by needing to be generated and does not exist as the ground state on Earth.
- All these changes ave been scutinised for at least six months, and from the history of edits, we can assume some general consensus. I wrote much of this text to stabalise the article to remove past contentions by editors and those who have aimed to cause disruption with an obvious agenda. IMO, either give a better reason to change it, and not react so heavily to cause unnecessary future edits. Thanks. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:31, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Attic Salt: @VQuakr: @Nerd1a4i: I've just made an objective compromise with the introduction to belay these concerns without damaging the guist of the original. I think to newer version is an improvement and is more logical, and retains WP:GF. Please state further issues. Thanks. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:01, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Request for comment
State of matter v. Plasma (physics)
I have fixed the article on the State of matter to be in line with Plasma (physics) article, by removing all the contridictions and ambiguities. I will now link State of matter in this article. Any possible Introductory summary should Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:11, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
"Does not freely exist" mention in the lede
I don't know that this is very clear. Lightning is discussed as an example of producing plasma. And, while it is not "on" the Earth per se, plasma exists in the Earth's magnetosphere. Attic Salt (talk) 13:53, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
@Attic Salt: Give a darn inch and you take a mile. So much for compromise... You just avoiding any consultation at all.
- Therefore, I have immediately reverted your edits here because they were nonconstructive edits, and now the implication of the your text was completely wrong. Specifically; "[Plasma]...can simply be considered as a gaseous mixture of negatively charged electrons and highly charged positive ions,..." That does not meet the true definition criteria, because plasma is not 'simple', which is qualified later by saying "Plasma and ionised gases have unique properties and display behaviors unlike those of the other states, although the true technical transition between them is mostly a matter of nomenclature and subject to interpretation." (Here "simple" refers to concept to aid the reader's understanding.)
- As I said before (above): "Considering the complexity of the nature and context of defining plasma - especially differences between partial plamsa and fully ionisd plasma - its pure definition will always be contentious."
- Again, the Introduction should develop the concept.
- 1)"Plasma is the 4th state of matter" says and defines what plasma is - a kind of substance. (This has been debated almost endlesslly on this very Talkpage (see Archive 1 discussions), just to reach this consensus.)
- 2) The reader can then link the properties of plasma as gaseous, which has the additional parameter of influencing fields.
- 3) Plasma does not exist on the Earth because it needs to be generated. I.e. It returns to the ground state of a gas if the generation is removed.
- Hence, the wording here is also implict correct, as it says plasma does not freely exist but must be generated, where the other states of matter DO exist freely. (Clearly, the Earth's magntosphere isn't here on the Earth's surface.) To avoid this confusion, I've restored the wording "under normal surface conditions"
- The text "Unlike, the other three states of solid, liquid, and gas, plasma does not freely exist on the Earth under normal surface conditions, and can only be artificially generated by heating neutral gases or by subjecting that gas to a strong electromagnetic field" is now implicitly correct, supported properly + formally cited.
- I also removed the incorrect absolute of "is" back to "can be". Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:06, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
@Power~enwiki:@Attic Salt:@184.108.40.206: The last changes are reasonable, but make the lede too complex for the average reader. I have restored this back to the original version, and added the additional text back to Definition (with Attic Salt's) which is a compromise reasonable. Accusing me of WP:OWN has been explained earlier in the text, which the IP seemingly has just been ignored. Suggest modifying the Definition section further, before changes in the Introduction. Also suggest this is again presented in talk page, where the Rfc suggest there is nothing wrong with the current introduction. Thanks. 22:23, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- The RFC suggests there is nothing wrong with the introduction? Attic Salt (talk) 22:26, 9 October 2017 (UTC):
- First of all User:Attic Salt, let's slow down with these rapid edits. The text has been in this way for a while, and whilst it is important to allow change and evolution in articles, more change with continuous edits just make it more difficult to get it right. [[User:220.127.116.11|18.104.22.168] was provocative and unhelpful, and avoided gaining consensus. (They should have responded to the Section where they falsely accused me of WP:OWN.)
- As for "The RFC suggests there is nothing wrong with the introduction?", but really the reverse is also true. (Had you not closed the Rfc when you did, when the admin was finding consensus, you might have solved this.) Where is the WP:Consensus here for the change? Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:43, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- Excuse me? You tried to close the RFC before I did. But, again, where does the RFC suggest "there is nothing wrong with the current introduction"? Attic Salt (talk) 22:47, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Attic Salt: Please stop this 'mudding of the waters' by hinging on every word or action I say.
- Plainly, near the end of the RFC it clearly says: I.e. "Other editors made comments suggesting that they sympathize with the lede having a defining sentence, though it might be technically difficult to attain an ideal definition: Nerd1a4i, VQuakr, Tigraan.
- Only two editors were against the lede having a defining sentence: Arianewiki1 (who "strongly" opposed the suggestion, but he/she might have slightly moved on this), Cwmhiraeth (who felt that a version of the lede (not sure which version) already had sufficient information)."
The article says:
- "Unlike the other three states of solid, liquid, and gas, plasma does not freely exist on the Earth under normal surface conditions, and can only be artificially generated by heating neutral gases or by subjecting that gas to a strong electromagnetic field."
It would be better to simplify, (and remove future contentious edits) by saying:
- "Unlike the other three states of solid, liquid, and gas, plasma can only be artificially generated (or ionised) by heating neutral gases or by subjecting that gas to a strong electromagnetic field. If the ionising source is removed, created plasma reverts back into a gas."
- I don't see how that's a simplification. It is longer and adds more qualifiers. VQuakr (talk) 06:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
New lede proposal
Diff at . I hope this addresses all of the major concerns raised by participants in the earlier RfC. Please feel free to make suggestions either here, or BOLD-ly on the lede itself. If you feel a need to revert to an earlier version, please discuss that here as well. power~enwiki (π, ν) 15:06, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Looks good to me. TigraanClick here to contact me 15:18, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you. The proposed change to the lede incorporates what the sources (Chen and Freidberg) state is a fundamental defining property of plasma, namely that it exhibits "collective behaviour", which, I note, IS discussed in the body of the article, though perhaps not as much as it should be. As I understand it, it is this collective behaviour that is the reason for the "jelly" analogy in the etymology of "plasma" (but I'm happy to be corrected on this). I also support moving the etymology material to the history section, where some of that content might generate confusion if introduced as the first bit of info in the lede. Attic Salt (talk) 15:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Saying "Plasma...is a state of matter in which an ionised gaseous substance becomes highly electrically conductive to the point that long-range electric and magnetic fields dominate the behavior of the matter." when it is not entirely true and at best is misleading It is not just the field production defining a plasma. (Also the statements above by Attic Salt is also not absolutely true, and I believe shows some obvious general misunderstandings.)
- Plasma's definition involves several parameters (not one), and much of the confusion is that several aspects of this are universally agreed upon. e.g. When does a gas actually become a plasma? This is why the cited text says: "...although the true technical transition between them is mostly a matter of nomenclature and subject to interpretation."
- 1) A substance becomes plasma for several reason, primarily because of the stripping of electrons by heat or a electromagnetic field, this induces the 'state of matter', which is ionised. It is the freedom of the unbound electrons that generate the fields, so plasma is physically actually the atomic nuclei. e.g. In the Sun's corona is Fe XX (Iron with 19 electrons removed.) That is the 'substance.' This is why the now deleted statement clearly says: "Plasma can simply be considered as a gaseous mixture of negatively charged electrons and highly charged positive ions... True.
- The Introduction now doesn't say this.
- 2) The second part of the text qualifies the different behaviours of the freed electrons and plasma ions. e.g. "...however, true plasma production is from the distinct separation of these ions and electrons that produces an electric field, which in turn, produces electric currents and magnetic fields." This is what generates the fields. What happens is the freed electrons are no longer attached to the atomic nuclei, as the energy (by heat) strip them away. The more heat, the more ionisation (stripping). e.g. Fe XX can become Fe XXI, etc. The degree of ionisation determines the difference between partial or fully ionised plasma. (Which is qualified in the next paragraph.) Additionally, plasma is a gas, whose so-called plasma density or electron density determines its behaviour.
- 3) Furthermore, the atomic nuclei become separated and fixed in their place, in the sea of freed electrons, which is why the word 'jelly' is used, as selected by Langmuir in the 1920s. This is why: "...true plasma production is from the distinct separation of these ions and electrons..." True.
- 4) The behaviour of the freed electrons from each nuclei create an electric field, which when combined with many many electron moving freely, makes the magnetic field, which then creates the electromagnetic field. This is the so-called 'plasma state', simply distinguishing plasma from some gas. This is why: "...distinct separation of these ions and electrons that produces an electric field, which in turn, produces electric currents and magnetic fields." True
- Now, according to power~enwiki statement: "BOLD - new lede. ...Use a better-written definition." clearly is oversimplified, and the deletion of "Plasma can simply be considered as a gaseous mixture of negatively charged electrons and highly charged positive ions, however, true plasma production is from the distinct separation of these ions and electrons that produces an electric field, which in turn, produces electric currents and magnetic fields." is unjustified. This shows this concisely describes plasma, which elaborates a definition, and is logically improves in complexity, so the average reader can understand what plasma is. The current organised texts read like a university textbook, which assumes already known knowledge.
- So far, throughout the lede debate, no-one has truly stated why these present changes are even justified. Worst, there is still no consensus since the changes introduced . The understanding of this topic is complex and broad in scope, so the Introduction has to be viewed as a process and not some 'demanded' one sentence definition.
- Until someone can provide a better and broader definition of 'plasma' and can consensus, the explained text above (deleted) should stay in the Introduction.
- The present version "Plasma is a state of matter which can be loosely defined as an ionized gas, though partially ionized plasmas also exist. This ionization makes the plasma affected by electromagnetic fields, which heavily influence how the plasma behaves." is incorrect. Plasma is a degree of ionisation and not partial or fully ionised, whose accepted definition differs between sources. Also plasma also generates the magnetic field, where the ionisation make these electric field, then the electric current, then the magnetic field. It is a three way process not two.
- The article was written in British English not America English where it is 'ionised' not 'ionized.' User:Nerd1a4i changed this. I have now reverted these changes. Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@Arianewiki1: I took the sentence "Plasma is a state of matter in which an ionized gaseous substance becomes highly electrically conductive to the point that long-range electric and magnetic fields dominate the behavior of the matter." verbatim from its appearance in the "Definition" section. In general, the first sentence should say what plasma is, and should avoid content that merely says what it is not, or what it is one of four of. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Power~enwiki: Ah. Not your fault, as it would be impossible to find in all the edits. I was the one who placed that text down from the lede to Definition as a compromise to solve the dispute here., which I added under section Talk:Plasma_(physics)#Reorganised text. (I pinged you about it to be transparent.) Attic Salt then quickly changes, by duplicated it, then moved it again here.
- My explanation and reasoning then appears under section Talk:Plasma_(physics)#"Does not freely exist" mention in the lede
- I'm getting really frustrated having to put 'fires out' everywhere, and not have a stable version to work towards consensus. Since the intervention of 22.214.171.124 here  more than two weeks ago accusing me of WP:OWN and their initial series of non-consensus edits . Heck, I explained myself to them here.Talk:Plasma_(physics)#WP:OWN violation (I said following accepted Wikipedia policy "Get consensus, and explain yourself, which is what this article's Talkpage is for." The IP didn't respond. Had the normal procedure of using the Talkpage first, we would not be where we are now is such a mess.)
- Please. We need a stable version of text to gain and work towards consensus. At the moment, it is like working on a ship in a stormy ocean. I keep trying to drag the pieces together, and are faced with conflicts based on ancillary technicalities and procedures. Yes, I rewrote much of the Introductory text in question and did not make these changes on whim. I've taught on the subject, I'm scientifically trained and understand what I'm doing. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
- OK. Tigraan appears to have started an RfC that will work better. I haven't studied physics in over a decade, "generally hotter than a gas with different electromagnetic properties" is all that I'm willing to definitively say based on my own knowledge. I don't plan to edit the article further until I'm actually at a library, which won't be for a few weeks at a minimum. power~enwiki (π, ν) 14:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
RfC on the lede, started anew
Amakuru, you have closed this request for comment, saying "there is a rough consensus for version 2, and something like that has already been inserted into the article". And yet what is "already inserted into the article" is, essentially, version 1, which only received the support of one editor. This is a technical article, and technical distinctions are important. I invite you to reconsider your summary and closure of the request for comment. Thank you, Attic Salt (talk) 13:33, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Attic Salt: thanks for pointing this out. I have now replaced the opening paragraph as per the result above, and amended my close text to clarify this. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 14:42, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
The metaphor with jelly
I’d like to suggest that the first couple sentences of the History section, which presently reads:
“The word plasma comes from the Ancient Greek πλάσμα, meaning "moldable substance" or "jelly", whose usage describes the behaviour of the ionised atomic nuclei and the electrons within the surrounding region of the plasma. Very simply, each of these nuclei are suspended in a movable sea of electrons.”
… be adjusted to more fully encompass the collective behaviour quality summarised by the following citations.
Drummond, in the introductory chapter of his book, states that plasma oscillations, observed by Tonks and Langmuir (1929) exhibited oscillatory behaviour (a collective behaviour) similar to the oscillations of a jelly plasma, p. 1: 
Inan and Gołkowski make a similar statement , p. 2: 
Chen, uses the jelly metaphor to describe a blob of plasma (again, collective behavior), page 205: 
In light of this, and to initiate discussion, I propose the following possible text, which might be reasonably altered or improved upon by other editors:
“The word plasma comes from the Ancient Greek πλάσμα, meaning "moldable substance" or "jelly". This metaphorical name can be traced to observations made by Tonks and Langmuir in 1929 that oscillations in ionised gas resemble oscillations of jelly. 
- Great. Add that to the article, but in case you are thinking of it, this has very little use in the Introduction. Again we see the abject failure that the introductory text is aim to the general reader and simply summarises the main body of the article. Hitching onto "collective behavior", when this is only a single parameter about plasma - and relies on a whole lot of assumed knowledge (historical and fact) and trivial. e.g. It is like defining Cathode rays when they are better known as electrons. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:10, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, this does look like personal research WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS, and does not necessarily tell the full story. e.g. Experiments done by these researchers used mercury arc plasmas under vacuum in glass jars, whose reaction created a uniform glow that looked like jelly in a mold. It only pulsated when the current was adjusted to show the degree of ionisation. Sorry, it just looks like massaging information to satisfy 'collective behaviour' and satisfying / reinforcing their own arguments. Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:39, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, what I've proposed is a summary explanation given (mostly) in the Drummond source (and which appears to be confirmed by the other sources I've cited); I've linked the sources, please consider reading them if you haven't already. The property of simply filling a mold, as you describe, is the property of a gas, not just a plasma; and the property of giving off light is not what we normally associate with "jelly". If you feel the suggested text needs adjustment, then please propose something that is sourced. Thanks. Attic Salt (talk) 12:59, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- Reading Goldstone, R.J., Rutherford, P.H., "Introduction to Plasma Physics", pg.2 (1995), where it says "Irving Langmuir, the Nobel laureate who pioneered the scientific study of ionized gases, gave this new state of matter the name ‘plasma’. In greek means ‘moldable substance’ or ‘jelly’, and indeed the mercury arc plasmas with which he worked tended to diffuse throughout their glass vacuum chambers, filling them like jelly in a mold." (This reference is the standard text in teaching the subject.) Saying " The property of simply filling a mold, as you describe, is the property of a gas, not just a plasma." misses the point, because that is not what Langmuir is talking about at all.
- Again, this does look dangerously like personal research WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS, deliberately linking "moldable substance" or "jelly" to oscillations, as to only support the analogy of "collective behavior" once stated by Langmuir in 1929.
- What you are missing here, is that this only applies to plasma in certain circumstance eg.'aurora' 'magnetosphere', and does not apply say, Sun's corona or fusion. I.e. Irving Langmuir paper is entitled "The Interaction of Electron and Positive Ion Space Charges in Cathode Sheaths." Considering the range of plasma related articles and the diversity of parameters discussion within the main body of Plasma (physics), you are complicating this too much, and forgetting who is reading it. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:34, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
At the risk of being accused of performing original research, and since there seems to be some contradictions (or misinterpretations, possibly on our parts) of what is said in the book by Goldstone and Rutherford and the books I've already linked above, I chased down the 1929 paper by Tonks and Langmuir (1929); . This paper is entitled "Oscillations in ionized gases". Here, on page 196 (the second page in the pdf file), Section A, they describe oscillations in the density of electrons relative to a rigid jelly of ions, on the next page, they dub these density oscillations "plasma-electron oscillations". I'm happy to accept this, and even see a quoted taken directly from the article to help clarify this issue. Arianewiki1, do you find this acceptable? I hope so. And thank you. Attic Salt (talk) 02:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I also note that Langmuir, in his 1928 paper, also entitled "Oscillations in ionized gases", uses the word "plasma", though he does not explain why he uses this word, he just describes the medium as a "region of balanced charges of ions and electrons" (p. 628): . In this paper, there is no specific mention of "jelly", though Langmuir proceeds to discuss the medium as a "continuum" of "positive electricity" in which there is a "free distribution" of electrons that oscillate. I have not found a mention of "jelly" prior to Tonks and Langmuir (1929), but it might be out there. For now, I'm seeing that none of the secondary sources cited in this discussion give a clear discussion on this issue of terminology. Attic Salt (talk) 13:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay, in the book by Merle Hirsh: , Langmuir introduced the word "plasma", according to his colleague, Tonks, in analogy with blood plasma. Hirsch suggestes, furthermore, that Langmuir's use of the word is related to the ability to "molded" (oddly, no source is cited for this speculation). So, perhaps finally, we can understand that the metaphor is with blood itself. Attic Salt (talk) 13:54, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I have obtained a copy of the 1967 paper The Birth of "Plasma" by Lewi Tonks,Tonks, Lewi (1967). "The birth of "plasma"". American Journal of Physics. 35. pp. 857–858. doi:10.1119/1.1974266. a close colleague of Langmuir. In this paper, Tonks recalls the moment that Langmuir started using the word "plasma" to describe the "gaseous electronic" experiments on which both Langmuir and Tonks were working in the last 1950s. Tonks says that, subsequently, a number of authors have guessed at the origin of the Langmuir's use of "plasma" -- that some of these guesses are more "colorful and vivid" than based in actuality. Tonks says that he thought that Langmuir used the word "plasma" in analogy to blood -- though, curiously, Tonks does not give (at least to me) a clear explanation for this analogy. Tonks says that Langmuir was certainly not referring to the "oscillatory characteristics" of plasma, nor was he referring to "cellular jelly or protoplasm". These assertions are difficult to reconcile with some of the textbooks cited in this discussion and in the Plasma (physics) article itself; notably both the book by Goldstone and Rutherford and the book by Drummond appear to continue the "guesses" that Tonks criticised in 1967. I propose that we add a footnote on this, citing the paper by Tonks. Attic Salt (talk) 23:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Utter rubbish. This is certainly WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR. I propose you've now crossed over into pushing an undisclosed agenda, likely plasma cosmology, especially in light of the debacle on demanding a 'definition of plasma which is ultimately bogus and disruptive. Why else would anyone create this utter fiction, especially for a deemed 'newbee'? Muddying the waters here is really reprehensible. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:00, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Here's another paper that gives more clarity to the blood metaphor, this one is by Harold Mott-Smith, also a colleague of Langmuir:Mott-Smith, Harold M. (1971). "History of "plasmas"" (PDF). Nature. 233. p. 219.
Arianewiki1, you might be interested in this article on the "quasi-history" sometimes presented in physics textbooks:Whitaker, M A B (1979). "History and quasi-history in physics education-part I". Physics Education. 14. pp. 108–112. If we were unaware of some of the details of how plasma came to be called "plasma", I think we can be happy when we learn something new. Attic Salt (talk) 17:04, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
I have added a short summary to the article of the accounts by Tonks and Mott-Smith (both given in reliable sources). I also added a link to the chapter in the Hirsh reference (which was already cited in the article), since this quotes Tonks. Thanks. Attic Salt (talk) 13:22, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- "Arianewiki1, you might be interested..." Nope. You've defied WP:GF and shown your own colours here. This is plainly WP:OR. Having a revealed agenda shows your insincerity here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:31, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Plasma approximation (and confusing text found in that section)
A sentence in the section on the "plasma approximation" presently reads:
"The plasma approximation is valid when the number of charge carriers within the sphere of influence (called the Debye sphere whose radius is the Debye screening length) of a particular particle is higher than unity to provide collective behavior of the charged particles. The average number of particles in the Debye sphere is given by the plasma parameter, Λ."
To me, this is confusing. For one thing, the notion of a sheath has not, at this point in the essay, even been mentioned. Perhaps this is reasonable, but there is no explanation as to why the number of particles within the Debye sphere must be greater than "unity" (that what the sentence says). I think it would normally be expected that the number of shielding particles be quite a bit more than "unity" if only for statistical reasons. I propose that this sentence be simplified, slightly, to read:
"The plasma approximation applies when the plasma parameter, Λ, representing the number of charge carriers within a sphere (called the Debye sphere whose radius is the Debye screening length) surrounding a given charged particle is sufficiently high so as to shield the electrostatic influence of the particle outside of the sphere. This short length-scale shielding permits collective behavior on length scales longer than the Debye radius."
- Attic Salt I always appreciate anyone who wants to make a passage in an article clearer and more concise. I know very little about physics, but I understand enough to know whether something is clearer or less clear, and your wording seems clearer. May I suggest a few changes?
- (a) In the parenthetical phrase after "within a sphere", remove "whose radius is the Debye screening length". It unnecessarily lengthens (and thus complicates) the sentence. You could link "Debye screening length" to Double layer (surface science), the article to which a search for "Debye screening length" leads. You could write the link as a piped link, with "Debye screening length after the pipe. Readers who want to know more about "Debye screening length" can read the linked article.
- (b) Add a comma after "charged particle". This is the end of a parenthetical phrase that begins "representing".
- (c) Remove "so" after "sufficiently high". It is not necessary since you have be ("is") and the adverb "sufficiently": "...is sufficiently high as to shield...". To use "so as to shield", you would have to change the wording so you have an action verb instead of "is" + adjective ("high"), something like, "when the plasma parameter, Λ,... [does something] so as to shield..." I don't think such a change is necessary since, without that "so", it reads well.
- (d) With regard to the phrase, "surrounding a given charged particle", it is not completely clear whether this refers to any charged particle, anywhere, or specifically to a charged participle within the sphere (referring, I am assuming, to the same sphere mentioned earlier in the phrase "within a sphere"). Would it makes sense to add the phrase "within the sphere" after it? Best regards, a non-expert in physics, – Corinne (talk) 00:30, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
In réponse to Corinne's suggestion that the discussion of Debye screening be reduced, I note that both Chen (p. 8) and Goldston and Rutherford (p. 14) introduce the material that is in the "Bulk interactions" section of this article before they introduce the content in the "Plasma approximation". This allows for a discussion of Debye screening first, then plasma parameter second. So, working with both of these sections, but in reverse order as presently found in this article, could help with the economy of presentation. Thoughts? Attic Salt (talk) 14:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- You must be typing on a French keyboard. I see "In réponse". ;) – Corinne (talk) 15:25, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Incorrect statement of fact.
"The positive charge in ions is achieved by stripping away electrons from atomic nuclei." States the current article. I believe this is incorrect, there are no electrons in atomic nuclei. "Nucleon" Wikipedia" "In chemistry and physics, a nucleon is either a proton or a neutron, considered in its role as a component of an atomic nucleus." AnnaComnemna (talk) 15:55, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- There is indeed no electron in the nucleus, but I do not think the sentence implies the opposite. I would read the sentence more naturally as "taking electrons away from the vicinity of the nuclei" rather than "taking electrons out of the nuclei" - but I know what an atomic nucleus is and I am no native English speaker, so maybe the sentence is misleading or incorrect and I do not realize it. TigraanClick here to contact me 18:21, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- "From" in this context seems reasonable. It doesn't imply electrons are part of the nucleus. VQuakr (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I was the one who wrote. It is a simplified statement that is similar to other cited texts. Again it relates to the degree of ionisation, where the electrons exist as sea but there continues some interaction between the the remaining electrons and the nuclei. Disassociate cannot be used as in chemistry this refers to interchanges between ionic states occurring in liquid solutions. The later statement explains this: This also can be accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds, though this process is distinctly different from chemical processes of ion interactions in liquids or the behavior of ions existing in metals.
- Considering now the recent consensus change in the first sentence has mostly destroyed the original logical flow within the article's introduction. I.e. The alleged characteristics are of a plasma in "definition of a plasma" responding to magnetic fields and being highly conductive are not actually characteristics. For me, it is important that the third paragraph is not broken. This because it properly defines the needed characteristics and environmental conditions to create a plasma state but also differentiating similar kinds of conditions of the other states. Its current third paragraph structure, considering the poor state this once was, is simple, informative and correct. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:36, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- For example, Chen, Intro to Plasma Physics, page 1: .
I respect the Rfc, such as it was, which is why I neither added nor subtracted any information, please compare versions. The 3rd sentence does not make any sense; "Unlike the other three states of solid, liquid, and gas, plasma does...". Fixing that (and cleaning up double spaces) is the only difference between versions. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 01:42, 14 January 2018 (UTC)