Talk:Port wine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Barrel aged vs bottle aged

I removed the false classification as Rubies are indeed stored in largares which is made of oak and is a barrel also. There also would cause confusion and ambiguity because Colheitas while may be from a distinctive vintage and aged in wood for such, are treated much like vintage port. Some wine houses will also age their colheitas (like niepoort) after bottling before release. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.48.130 (talk) 15:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

LBV

I have removed the reference to the test for distinguishing between filtered and unfiltered LBV, as Croft are now marketing their unfiltered LBV with a stopper instead of a driven cork. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.225.61 (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Years

The following is a list of the great port-producing years of the last century.

1900, 1908, 1912, 1927, 1931, 1934, 1935, 1945, 1948, 1955, 1963, 1966, 1970, 1977, 1983, 1985, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1997

I had to remove this because there is no great agreement as to which vintages are the best. It would be OK to list the years that all houses declared, or maybe spotlight a few years that are widely acknowledged. But a completely subjective list is not NPOV, sorry to say. Besides, you left off 2000. ;) --Wnissen 14:47, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is there a source that says what years all houses declared? this website lists the following subset of years as classic, whatever that means: 1912, 1927, 1931, 1935, 1945, 1948, 1963, 1970, 1977, 1985, 1994, 2000. NTK 05:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

This seems like a decent source: thevintageportsite.com I don't think there's any 100% objective way to come up with "the" list. Even if you look at years that "all major houses declared," you need to decide which are major, and quibble over which abstentions are significant. I don't think we should not include a list because it isn't 100% objective, certainly we can come up with a consensus. It's not like port is the most controversial subject on WP. NTK 05:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Was edited out: An uncomfirmed British tradition concerning Port holds that, within some unnamed "olden days", every British father would buy a pipe (126 U.S. gallons) of Port for his son at birth, so that by the time he was of age, it would be old enough for him to drink.

Its kind of true. Wording not good. Not "everyone" but I knew people who had nad port bought for them. Justinc 10:40, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

1917 is also considered one of the finest vintages of the 20th century.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.172.173.12 (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2015 (UTC) 

Tawny ports

The line ""Tawny" port produced outside Portugal is rarely aged long enough to develop a natural tawny color. Instead, it is the result of blending "ruby" and "white" ports, or possibly the addition of caramel coloring." is a bit confusing. What is "Port" produced outside of Portugal? The article starts by saying Port is a type of wine produced in Portugal. It would perhaps be better to seperate the Tawny port section into "Aged Tawnies" and "Mixed Tawny". Tawny made by aging in wood is always named "Aged Tawny" or has an indicated age. Tawnies made by mixing white and red does not - but is still called "Port" (in the UK) and comes from Portugal. Also "Colheitas" should really be considered seperate. Colheitas are ports made from wines from a single Colheita, which is a somewhat poorly defined idea, but a Colheita is roughly a collection of vinyards. Colheita ports are a relatively recent occurance, coming about after a change in the trade laws allowed vinyards to sell wine as Port directly, without going through the shipping companies. I don't believe there is any link between Colheitas and tawny port; many are sold as Vintage (the grapes are all from one year; however that is not a declared year). There should be some mention that names "Port" (in the U.K.) and Oporto (most of the rest of the world) are protected names.

I suppose I should be putting this in the article, instead of in here. I should dig up some referrance material.

EDIT: All online sources I can find seem to disagree with me on Colheita. So maybe I am getting confused. Will dig out a book.

The paragraphs ""Tawny" port produced outside Portugal is rarely aged long enough to develop a natural tawny color. Instead, it is the result of blending "ruby" and "white" ports, or possibly the addition of caramel coloring."

and

"This is increasingly no longer true as Australia produces some excellent aged Tawnies. Yalumba has released a 50 year old tawny and Hardy's Whiskers Blake,Rosemount's Old Benson and Galway Pipe are also made in the traditional manner. South Africa's largest wine producer KWV also makes tawny port in the traditional manner."

Seem to be contradictory and look like a "debate". I suggest that both are deleted and a section made on "foreign" port-styled wine. Besides, the first paragraph also applies to some portugese made tawny. --Nwinther 13:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Single Quinta Vintage Port

"This is a relatively new (at least in terms of marketing) development : it is vintage port produced from a particular vineyard and sometimes from a lesser "undeclared" year. However, some of the most renowned Vintage Ports are Single Quintas."

Noval nacional, fonseca guimareans, dow's bonfim and a few others(not labeled as such) have been around for decades no?

Much of the complex character of aged vintage port comes from the continued slow decomposition of grape solids in each bottle. However, these solids are undesirable when port is consumed, and thus vintage port typically requires a period of settling before decanting and pouring.

this is unscientific. Complexity comes from the phenols, and the various acids not the slow decomposition of grape solids.

I've also known friends who rolled cigars with these solids and smoked them with a glass of port. They'd disagree about the undesirability of these solids.

Vintage port should not be confused with 'Late Bottled Vintage' (see above).

This line is redundant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.194.9 (talk) 05:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Halt Fermination results in higher alcohol?

From the article: "This is caused by the addition of distilled grape spirits to fortify the wine and halt fermentation before all the sugar is converted to alcohol."

How is it that halting fermentation results in a more alcoholic wine?

That is getting the cause and effect reversed. Halting fermentation does not result in a more alcoholic wine, adding alcohol, the distilled grape spirits in this case, makes it a more alcoholic wine (fortifies it). The halting of fermentation is a result of adding the alcohol, which kills the yeast.

The full bit from the article is: "Port wine is typically thicker, richer, sweeter, and possesses a higher alcohol content than most other wines. This is caused by the addition of distilled grape spirits to fortify the wine and halt fermentation before all the sugar is converted to alcohol."

Adding brandy/grape spirits makes it stronger. Doing this before fermentation completed makes it sweeter.

Crusted Port

The article as it stands reads 'Crusted port is a blend of port wine from several years; the "crust" refers to the sediment that it has in common with Late-Bottled and vintage ports'. Late Bottled vintage does not contain sediment. I will edit it to 'Crusted port is a blend of port wine from several years, but retains the crust otherwise restricted to vintage ports.'

Well, Traditional LBV does contain sediments. Perhaps, correcting that would solve the problem?--Nwinther 13:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

White Port?

• I didn't know that there is an White Port... And I'm Portuguese!

(anonymous)

• Hmmm... that just means you don't drink wines regulary or you don't care about them. If you had some attention while going to a supermarket you would surely notice white Ports. There is a famous one, known as Lágrimas, try it, and you can find it in supermarkets, it is not very expensive. But it also depends on the region you are, in here (Northern Portugal) surely everyone knows this kind of wine; some years ago, these were the trendiest Port wines consumed by regular people. --Pedro 13:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ruby Port

There are some small details that I would change in this article. I work in a port wine cellar, so I know many things about this wine. Firstly, ruby isn't the cheapest type of port. Both Rubys and standard Tawnies age for 3 years, so they belong to the same category, that is the lowest category. This is what happens in Portugal. In some countries, traders take advantage of people's ignorance, and increase prices because tawnies seem to be older than rubys. Rubys are not stored in tanks made of concrete or stainless steal, as the article says. In fact, they age for 3 years inside large vats (about 40 000 litres) made of oak, where the wine breathes less than tawnies, wich age inside small oak casks (about 650 litres). This is why tawinies seem to be older than rubys: they have got an higher oxidation during the aging process

Pedro Mesquita, Porto

General edit - August '06

I hope the original contributors will forgive me for giving this topic a heavy makeover, but this is a fascinating subject that I have been studying (and drinking!) for a long time.

There was (and is) much to add to the original text. Although I am re-structuring much of the original material, I am only removing the very small amount that is factually inaccurate, or un-verifiable. If anyone takes issue with my contributions, I'd be happy to discuss - THRA321@AOL.COM

Spotted a couple of minor errors - Single Quinta Vintage Port IS a true Vintage Port (indeed the most highly priced Vintage Port of them all - Noval Nacional - is from a single quinta) and for some reason Ruby ports were said to be bulk stored in glass? Surely someone didn't mean to say that!

I have also removed the reference to the Australian tawnies being 'excellent' - for being too subjective. I have substituted the word 'interesting' - which is less contentious. I am also doubtful that any of the Australian product is produced in exactly the same manner as the Portuguese - some certainly isn't - so I have removed the reference to it being produced 'in the traditional manner'.

Some of the information was slightly out of date - the IVDP introduced regulations that re-defined the nomenclature and specification of many products in 2002, and I have updated the text accordingly, while retaining information on the old specifications.

There's much more to do - but all in good time!

Tom Archer, August 20th 2006

Ruby Port again

I decided to remove "Ruby ports can also be quite sensitive to exposure to air and are best drunk within a day or two of opening." because this is not true. In fact, standar rubys, after opened, can be kept for more than six months, and it's flavour doesn't change. That's why Ruby's bottles have a plastic cap on the top of the cork, meaning that the wine is a long-term drink. Pedro, Portugal

Well done Pedro - someone tweaked a few bits shortly after my last makeover - that wasn't my work. A misuse of the minor edit tool, I think..

I've just done a minor rework of the Vintage section - as some mods appeared that gave the impression that Vintage and LBV were made from the same quality wine - OK, they can be, but not in practice!

Tom, August 23rd.

Sept 6th - some vandalism to the texts - have restored from file as minor edits

Tom

A year on since I last checked this out, and the text (subject, overall..) has been largely re-written. At first glance this looks like mostly good work - but some needless corporate promotion from the US seems to have crept in, and the main writer appears to be a well versed academic in the field of wine, but not perhaps a dyed-in-the-wool portotfile!

Will re-visit and tweak (gently..!) when I am less busy in a couple of months time

Tom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.142.3.197 (talk) 23:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Decanting

The decanting section is interesting and complete, but it seems a bit long for an article on port. Should Decanting Port be its own article? Derekt75 23:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The section really isn't written in a encyclopedic style (it's in the second person), and Wikipedia is not an Instruction manual. I don't really want to see that much information just vanish though. Perhaps it'll make sense to write a general Decanting (wine) article that goes into more of the details of decanting. -- The Bethling^(Talk) 05:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't that make it a candidate for a move to WikiBooks, linked from the article? --KGF0 ( T | C ) 06:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's too 'instruction oriented' to belong here. It does appear to be good content - I don't know what qualifies something for WikiBooks, but I'm in favor of keeping the information somewhere - just not here. --Spyforthemoon 22:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Caves or Cellars?

In the main article it says:

"Port is produced with grapes from the Douro region, fortified with distilled grape spirits, and stored in caves in Vila Nova de Gaia."

According to other sources (Words about Port), the wine is stored in Cellars. Can someone confirm this?

Update - OK. So it seems that "Cellars" in portuguese is actually "Caves", so someone used the portuguese word. But I really don't want to change this until someone gives a second opinion. Cheers.

Yup. Cellars in Portuguese are "caves", although typical Port Wine cellars are always ground floor ones.

In adition Port Wine is stored in cellars on VN Gaia and not in Oporto city, because the buildings of these cellars face the northern view (to the city of oporto), with low direct sunshine over them, therefore giving the wine more stable conditions of (low) temperature and humidity all year around. However after this aging process (10-50 years or even more), the wine is bottled and stored in conventional cellars. --Netshark 13:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

reverse copyvio?

It looks like http://www.vintageportgifts.co.uk/ has taken the entire text of this article for their own, with no attribution of any sort, kind or manner. I'm almost certain that's a GPL violation. What I'm entirely unsure of is who should do what about that. --KGF0 ( T | C ) 06:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Oldest Protected Region in the world

Delirium rightly removed the sentence " Of all the wine regions in the world, none has a stricter regulatory regime.", but it is a fact that the Port Wine Region of Douro is the oldest protected region in the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AxiomShell (talk • contribs) 10:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Is Port the oldest protected appelation as claimed in the history section or the second oldest as claimed in the second paragraph of the introduction --- Skapur 00:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

From what is written in the Appellation article, it appears Port is the second, after Tokaji. I made corrections accordingly. --BeautifulFlying 02:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

you are correct, but your change (to read 2nd oldest) was undone at some point. I will restore it. Bundas 17:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Here we are Sept. 23, 2008 and I am again restoring the accurate statement that port is 2nd oldest appelation, not the oldest. There must be some philo-port fanatic or jingoist out there determined to exalt Port to a position above reality. Bundas (talk) 02:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Here we are yet again January 2009 and I am for a third time restoring the accurate statement that port is 2nd oldest appelation, not the oldest. The philo-port fanatic vandal is determined to exalt Port to a position above reality. 130.226.178.140 put the wrong info in on 11:35, 26 January 2009. Bundas (talk) 04:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Authentication

"Similar wines, often also called "Port", are produced in several other countries, notably Australia, South Africa, India and the United States. In some nations, including Canada, after a phase-in period, and the countries of the European Union, only the product from Portugal may be labeled as Port."

I think that this sentence is rather ambiguous: are similar wines called port or just referred to as port? Or does this depend on the coutry that you are buying the wine in? And what of the 'phase-in' period? This seems to be rather an oddly constructed and uninformative section. Jimjamjak 11:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

These wines can be called port wine (tough not true ports) because:

a) their grapes vines geneticly "descend" from original port vines from Portugal and are grown in regions that mimic the climate conditions of the douro region in Portugal, namely cold rainy winters and hot dry summers. The aging process is obviously very similar.

b) "Port wine" is not a trademark because the EU did not saw an interest in registering it (tough Portugal did).

Of course these aren't original Ports and as the quality status remains disputed, therefore one can say these aren't true Ports. --Netshark 13:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it's a controlled designation now, isn't it? --Xyzt1234 (talk) 21:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Opened Bottles

Once opened, port wines must be consumed within a period of time.
Could this be more vague?? Could someone please clarify or remove this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.86.183 (talk) 04:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Attribution note

Some of the content in the section Instituto dos Vinhos do Douro e do Porto is from the merged stub Instituto dos Vinhos do Douro e do Porto. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:49, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Long journey

I've often seen it claimed, as here, that the "long journey" from Portugal to England necessitated that port be fortified with something like brandy. So much further than from France? Perhaps someone could explain this fragility of Portugese wines.RayJohnstone (talk) 05:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Fortification is not just a matter of distance, but also a matter of the temperature and season during transport. A wine does not have to be particularly "fragile" to be ruined by a journey of a couple of weeks in summer heat. That said, Port was initially not nearly as strong and sweet as today, and was initially used as a "table wine", but was much more stronger than Clarets of its day. I've read that the current level of fortification was arrived at in the early 19th century or so to imitate some top vintages. Sherry and similar sacks, on the other hand, have always been fortified as far as I know. Tomas e (talk) 23:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

That the wine was fortified to transport it to England sounds like a legend. There were fortified wines before port (sherry is a good example). The wiki page on the history of Portuguese wines doesn't mention fortification for transport, it mentions that an abbot was making the wine by adding alcohol before fermentation is complete and that that innovation lead to, well, port (a wine that is both sweet and with high alcohol content). This made a wine that the English liked and that's why it became successful. Of course it could very well be that it became even more successful because it was also very stable. But that's not what the article says, and there should be some sources. Someone should add the appropriate tag. Le Morfal (talk) 16:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

There could be many reasons for the "legend" of the length of the voyage. Personally, I suspect it being a problem of a second fermentation or come pollution of the casks or whatever, "turning" the wine. This could be a problem that had occured several times and a solution was made by adding alcohol, stabilizing the wine and stopping any second fermentation or turning. The length of the voyage got the blame and Port wine was invented.--Nwinther (talk) 07:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Pitt and port

Port has been used therapeutically, notably for Pitt the younger when he was a boy. A bottle a day according to Ehrman: "The Younger Pitt", also mentioned in EB 11th ed. This might be worth a mention.RayJohnstone (talk) 05:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Does this really deserve a mention? As of right now the "Therapeutic value" section should be deleted or vastly improved. It gives one example (with horrible reference style) of a person without any explanation or reason that the person is noteworthy. If port "has been used therapeutically" then there should be more to say such as other examples or discussion of the ailments for which it was used. Jallotta (talk) 07:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Jallotta. The section appears as a passing statement with no relevance to the overall article. Remarks999 (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Vintage Port

The comparisson of price between bordeaux wines and vintage port whilst interesting sounds like an advertisment rather than encyclopedic. Perhaps Port does appear better value for money as the statment implies but listing prices which will change and go out of date does not seem the best way to go. Simply saying 'vintage port prices do not normally exceed x amount of money (£/$/euro etc) where as vintage wines can sell for much more' seems adequate if this statement is true. I really think this part needs reworking but since I do not profess to know about Port I don't think i am the person who should make these changes. 29th December 2009 82.26.72.231 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:20, 29 December 2009 (UTC).

Agree, I rephrased it. Tomas e (talk) 12:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Continued English involvement

"The continued English involvement in the port trade can be seen in the names of many port shippers: Cockburn, Croft, Dow, Gould, Graham, Osborne, Offley, Sandeman, Taylor and Warre being amongst the best known."

Cockburn, Dow and Graham are all Scottish names, not English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.130.15.240 (talk) 18:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

"Pass to the left" thing

Seems silly and pointless, but I left it in. It has no meaning or bearing on how the wine will taste, after all. Huw Powell (talk) 02:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

port, not Port

The capitalization of the word port should be harmonized within this article, where it is often but not always spelled Port instead.

Since all English dictionaries I can find do not capitalize the word (see the relevant entries here, for example) it seems most reasonable not ever to capitalize it in this article unless it begins a sentence or is part of a brand name.

I don't know about rules for capitalization in Portuguese, but even if the corresponding word is capitalized in Portuguese, this is an English encyclopedia, and in English the port in port wine is not capitalized. I am going to risk it and make this change in the article.--Jim10701 (talk) 03:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguous sentence?

I'm not a native English speaker, but this sentence sounds strange: "It is typically a sweet, red wine, often served as a dessert wine, and comes in dry, semi-dry, and white varieties.". So, is it red or white? Sweet or dry? Could anybody knowledgeable in both English and Porto wines rephrase this sentence, please?

How to serve and store

Link 14 appears broken and the information derived looks questionable, in particular there is no virtue in keeping T stoppered bottles upright, as the corks begin to decay and then break when removed.

the information stated here could or should be incorporated somehow in the article:

Conservation

After the bottle has been opened, its conservation will depend on the Port Wine category and its place of storage. The suggested periods are only for guidance purposes

Vintage: 1 – 2 days LBV: 4 – 5 days Crusted: 4 – 5 days Ruby / Ruby Reserve: 8 – 10 days Tawny / Tawny Reserve: 3 – 4 weeks Tawny with an Indication of Age: (10, 20, 30, +40 years): 1 – 4 months (Younger Tawnies should be consumed earlier) White Port with an Indication of Age (10, 20, 30, +40 years): 1 – 4 months (Younger White Ports should be consumed earlier) Colheita: 1 – 4 months (Younger wines should be consumed earlier) Standard White Port, depending on the style: Modern (fresh and fruity) – 8 - 10 days; Traditional (wood matured): 15 – 20 days

Serving temperatures

Rosé Port: 4ºC White Port: 6-10ºC Ruby style Port: 12-16ºC Tawny style Port: 10-14ºC

Sales

Perhaps some information about sales of port, present and past, might be useful. It's clearly a very valuable commodity, with a long history of being exported, stored, drunk and written about. If I find a reliable source of info I'll add some, but I'm no expert and would be happy if better informed people did the work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo (talk • contribs) 06:30, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Continued English involvement?

Several of the families listed incl. Sandeman are Scottish in origin not English.

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Vintage Port

The section says that the oldest Vintage Port still available for sale if the Ferreiro 1815. That's not the case anymore, they sold the last one in March - they have bottles still, but they are not for sale anymore. I cannot remember / I don't know what the oldest is currently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.251.187.4 (talk) 22:42, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Single-vintage crusted port

From the article it sounds like crusted port is differentiated from vintage port by being a blend of vintages that are approachable at a younger age. So what's the difference between "single vintage crusted port" and vintage port? Is it just "vintage port from a bad year that doesn't age well"? The phrase "...single vintage crusted ports have sometimes been made in the past" makes it sound like these single-vintage crusted ports were never very notable and are definitely not notable anymore, so I put a citation-needed tag and might remove the unsourced material later if the issue isn't addressed. Thanks, KinkyLipids (talk) 00:09, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Image: Different port wine styles

The image identifies the four glasses (presumptively from left to right) as "white, ruby, tawny, vintage".

The second (supposedly ruby) is a pale colour, more suggestive to me of an aged vintage. The article itself notes that ruby ports are deliberately manufactured so as to have a deep red colour. And the fourth (supposedly vintage) seems to be a deep burgundy colour, more suggestive of a ruby; aged vintage ports gradually lose intensity of colour, so that they become less red and more "orangey" as time goes by.

A late-bottled vintage doesn't lose its colour to the extent of a true vintage, at least not in the time it takes to be ready to drink. I would be pressed to distinguish some LBVs from a ruby, based on colour alone. Perhaps glass #4 is really a LBV?

I propose to change the caption for the image to switch "ruby" and "vintage"; I don't have a source for this change, so it would be WP:OR. But so is the present caption! ...I would, of course, welcome a WP:RS for the present version of the caption.

Incidentally, I always found it curious that tawny port is generally not the beige colour to which I would ascribe the term "tawny", but rather a faded red colour. Perhaps once upon a time tawny ports had a paler colour.

I can't distinguish the colours of the glasses captioned as "tawny" (3) and "vintage" (4) in the image. Perhaps a better image (with a sourced caption) could be found in some WP:RS? I do think an image showing the styles for comparison is helpful, and absent a better image with a RS caption, this one should be kept.

For what it's worth, I have never seen a ruby (gem) that wasn't basically a shade of pink; perhaps there exist rubies the colour of ruby port. There is a very large "ruby" in the Imperial State Crown of the UK, which might have that intensity of colour - I haven't seen the crown jewels since I was about 8. But I believe that gemstone is in fact a Spinel from Ceylon, and not a ruby at all. MrDemeanour (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Bottle images

I noticed that of the eight images featuring bottles on this page, five of them depict Taylor's port. Given the number of port wineries, this is probably excessive. (The photos are of good quality.) The user who added them also added offsite links to Taylor's in the text, and inverted text to ensure Taylor's is mentioned first anywhere a list of producers is mentioned (and has made no edits to other articles). Mindmatrix 15:29, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Question

Dear Writer,

Perhaps I oversaw my question in your article, but does there exist wine from that region that is not fortified and perhaps only is consumed there. I thought that fortifying is applied to wines which are very vulnaralbe and decay rapid. Am I wrong?

145.129.136.48 (talk) 12:45, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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