Talk:Racial achievement gap in the United States

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Change article title or remove Hispanics

Hispanics are not a racial group so the title is quite unfitting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.41.72 (talk) 21:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Proposed Expansion of Evidence, Implications, and Success Stories Sections

In hopes of expanding the current article and to address some of the concerns Wikipedia has mentioned, I propose to make some revisions in the "Evidence", "Implications and "Success Stories" sections. Specifically, the content under "Evidence" currently displays some graphs from the National Assessment Educational Progress (NAEP). While this mirrors the same content as in the article Achievement gap in the United States, I think it would be beneficial to use multiple sources, and to examine the various ways racial achievement gap can be manifested. Specifically, I would reorganize the "Evidence of the Racial Achievement Gap" section to include several new subsections: 1. Standardized Test Scores, 2. High School Dropout Rates, 3. College Acceptance and Retention Rates, and 4. Longitudinal Trends of the Achievement Gap.

Furthermore, I would like to add two additional subsections on the "Implications of the Achievement Gap" section: 1. Individual Outcomes, and 2. Effects on the US Economy. The current section is rather brief, and only gives the macro perspective, whereas outcomes on the individual are largely unaddressed.

Lastly, I would change the "Success Stories in Narrowing the Racial Achievement Gap" to include not only "Charter Schools", but also "Policy Changes" and "School Initiatives". There has been marked progress made in the racial achievement gap, outside of charter school systems, that need to be recognized.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback or comments you may have. Thank you for your consideration! AlisaYu (talk) 03:26, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Potential Revisions

Alisa, I think you have made some great contributions to this article. Some of these suggestions are not from sections in which you wrote, but rather, are other edits that I think could be made to this page. That being said, in the introduction, it states that “There are several different factors that cause this gap, which are detailed below.” If such a statement is going to be made about causes, you should also mention origins, implications, solutions etc. in this sentence because the article is not solely devoted to causes, which is what is implied in the introduction. Also, in the first paragraph under evidence, it says “However, the racial achievement gap remains because not all groups of students are advancing by the same intervals”. I think “at the same rate” is a more logical conclusion to that sentence. Furthermore, under “Origin of the Racial Achievement Gap” and “Family Factors”, you mention concerted cultivation as being practiced by middle-class families regardless of race but then in the last sentence of that paragraph it says how this gives white children more social capital. I think there needs to be some clarification of the link between race and class because right now this paragraph is making a lot of assumptions without stating them. Finally, you mention in your post above that under "Success Stories in Narrowing the Racial Achievement Gap" to include not only "Charter Schools", but also "Policy Changes" and "School Initiatives". I think you should definitely add these sections, especially because you said there is quite a bit of information on this. Overall though, you have done a really good job! Also, one final thing -- your name still appears red on Wikipedia and I would recommend changing that just to give yourself more credibility and make you seem more "official" because you are doing a lot of really good work on this article. I don't actually remember how to change it, but if you go to Ana's page there should be directions! Colleenfugate (talk) 20:59, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Comments about Revisions

Hi Colleen,

Thank you for your suggestions! Regarding the causes of the gap, I think that is a revision that should be made and I will address that in my final revision. I will make sure that the introduction provides a broad overview of what should be expected in the remainder of the article. You bring up a valid point about "at the same rate" although I think that in some cases, "by the same intervals" apply as well. The achievement gap can be measured through several ways: the rate at which certain groups are catching up to others, or through actual score differences, rather than a relative comparison. I will make note of that suggestion though. Your point about classism and race is well taken, and in the literature, they often group those variables together as well. I will try my best to separate the two, although many outcomes of class and race are intertwined. I just changed my profile so that my name is no longer in red. Thanks for all the edits! I really appreciate it! AlisaYu (talk) 04:28, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

New Proposed Revisions

My proposed changes for this article would specifically be focusing on the implications of the racial educational achievement gap, the history of education reform, and the attempts to narrow the achievement gap. This involves focusing on and expanding section 3 “Implications of the Achievement Gap” by adding subsections: Job Opportunities, Stereotype Threat, and Health Outcomes. I would also add a section about the “History of Education Reform” to give readers background on previous attempts and attitudes throughout history about education reform. Lastly, I would build off of the history of section and edit “Efforts to Narrow the Achievement Gap” by expanding on the standards based reform and adding subsections on Vouchers, Charter Schools, Private Schools, Teach For America, Early Childhood Education, and Nonprofit Organizations. In these sections I would include relevant information on the structural set-up and goals of this institutions as well as research that discusses their effect on the achievement gap. I would provide information from reliable academic sources and from both sides of the controversial topics in order to maintain neutrality. I plan to draw on many academic journals, especially educational and sociological. This includes works from Ruth Turley and Adam Gamoran, Wendy Schwartz, James Ainsworth, Abhijit V. Banerjee and Esther Duflo, Cynthia Prince, and the research from Society for Research on Educational Effectiveness (SREE). I would appreciate any feedback or comments.

Mmcolson (talk) 04:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

More New Proposed Revisions

In line with the ratings given by several different WikiProject groups for this article, I have suggestions for expansion that I believe would help with the concerns raised. More specifically, I think the article would benefit from a subsection under “Evidence of the Racial Achievement Gaps” that talks about middle school dropout rates. Conclusions by Rumberger (1995) provide well-researched findings that connect middle school dropout rates to the racial achievement gap. The “Standardized Test Scores” subsection under “Evidence of the Racial Achievement Gaps” would also benefit from the inclusion of Asian American test scores as compared to African American and Hispanic test scores. The book No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal provides an abundance of data that compares whites, African Americans, Hispanics, and Asians in terms of their standardized tests scores. I believe this expansion would add to the graphs already included so that readers could get test score results from a variety of different standardized tests. No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal could also be used to add more information to the achievement gap data provided for the white-black achievement gaps and the white-Hispanic achievement gaps already included in the article. I would also like to rename the section “Standardized Test Scores” under “Evidence of the Racial Achievement Gaps” to “High School Dropout Rates” since the section specifically talks about high school dropout rates and not standardized tests scores. High school dropout rate data examined by Heckman and LaFontaine (2010) could help supplement data already provided about high school dropout rates in this section. Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated!

Morell21 (talk) 15:40, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

GA review

The tags have to be removed from the top of the article before there can be a GA review, see my comments here for details. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:24, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Too politically correct.

Shouldn't there be a genetics section under 'Origins of the Racial Achievement gap'? Why isn't any of the work of Richard Lynn or Jared Taylor cited? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.53.35 (talk) 12:43, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. The section needs to be urgently added.--Kohelet (talk) 02:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree, this article is too biased toward the liberal viewpoint. I recommend citing the fringeelements channel on YouTube. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.44.175.94 (talk) 10:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Fringeelements is a bad citation. His videos do use data from proper sources, though. --Photon man62 (talk) 05:26, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree too, this is ridiculous. IIRC, there was such a part in the past, but then was edited to be weasel-worded ("fringe", "a very small amount of scientists") and then was deleted entirely. It's really unbelievable how political correctness keeps knowledge back. Even College Board data (they prepare the actual SAT) shows a large racial gap in SAT score - even when comparing students in a specific income bracket. Oh, but I guess they're biased as well. --Photon man62 (talk) 05:26, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

This was wrongly added to this article as it is from the viewpoint of Scientific Racism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism - those comments should go there. IQ has been criticized heavily as an indicator of success and is not well linked to achievement or structural gaps in the United States. Nobojangles (talk) 11:40, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

The section "Genetics Differences" in this article is covering physiological differences (i.e. brain size) and not genetics. Relations between race and genes is covered in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics. Also there is no scientific consensus on the relationship between brain size and intelligence https://academic.oup.com/brain/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/brain/awh696 and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/526851. Suggest removal of this section of link to "Race and genetics article" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabiolas (talk • contribs) 11:13, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Proposed revisions

As a part of a class assignment, I would like to propose a few revisions and additions to this article that would hopefully increase its relevance and effectiveness in coverage of the racial achievement gap in the United States. I would like broaden the focus of this article to include more information about the Latin American and Asian American sides of the achievement gap. Given the diversity of the American population, there is a need for greater recognition of different racial/ethnic group’s perspectives. Specifically, I plan to reorganize the "Theories about the origin of the Racial Achievement Gap" section to present the information along common lines that can be drawn between each ethnic group (family structure/culture, neighborhood/community, culture, and history/politics).

Additionally, I would like to add to the "Implications of the Achievement Gap" section a subsection about political representation, explaining the implications of underrepresentation of minority groups in political office as well as the voting population in relation to educational opportunities. I also plan on adding more information about the effects of stereotype threat on Latin and Asian Americans.

Outside of Theories and Implications sections, I would like to add to the overview section at the beginning of the article. I would like to expand this section to not only include a description of the achievement gap, but also the theories of its origin, and the approaches to resolve the problem. I will make a point to emphasize the significance of the achievement gap in defining the socioeconomic scene in the United States. Without a compelling and intellectually accessible introductory section, this article will not engage readers and attract the readership necessary to change the discourse surrounding this topic.

Lastly, I am concerned about the appropriateness of my usage of "race" versus "ethnicity". While I hope that my research will elucidate the politics of the use of these words, I also feel it necessary to consult the Wikipedia community about this.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback or comments you may have. Thank you for your help and consideration! Bcqnguyen (talk) 01:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Remember that the point of WP articles is to reflect the body of secondary sources on the subject, not original scholarship/research. Can't stress that enough. The article is on race-based achievement gaps so, of course, coverage on all aspects of the topic is warranted, but with due weight (the article shouldn't necessarily be split evenly between each mentioned race if the body of race-based achievement gap literature is not divided similarly). As per my comment on the parent page, go for it, and try to edit in small bursts so it's easy to follow your changes in the article's history. czar ♔ 02:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions, Czar! This and your comment on the parent page were very helpful. And I assure you that I am not doing original research and will be citing each assertion in my contributions. Thanks again-- I appreciate your input! Bcqnguyen (talk) 23:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Edits for Final Contribution

The contribution so far is well written. It is a good introductory paragraph. However, I think that more information needs to be added to your part of the article. You need to add more content in order to not only satisfy the word requirement, but also to make your article complete. I also strongly suggest that you add more resources/reference them more frequently throughout the article. You make solid and logical points, however, at some points the neutrality/validity is questionable (meaning that if sounds like it might be just your opinion that you are writing down, not using scholarly resources). If you aren't careful, it might be deemed as original research and could be potentially taken down. Besides that, only minor changes to the article are needs. Overall, a good!

Popekp740 (talk) 05:07, 7 November 2013 (UTC)popekp740

I mostly agree with Popekp740. What you have is pretty well-done, as long as you watch your writing style (with regards to your neutrality). If you do this, you'll have a pretty good article by the end. Santatijay (talk) 15:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

TA Comments

Hi Bcqnguyen! Your contribution is well-researched and informative, great job! The only things I noticed were that there were a few typos and grammatical errors, especially overuse of passive voice (such as "The study of the achievement gap can be addressed from two standpoints"). Check for those and try to convert the passive voice to active voice. Also, I noticed that most of your information pertains to Caucasians, African Americans, and Hispanic Americans, but you have a bit about Asian Americans in the intro and the Demand-Side section. Have you found any research related to Asian Americans for the Implications section? You could definitely add things like median income, and I feel like I've seen a study that Asian Americans have reverse stereotype threat (as in they do better if they're reminded of their race). Let me know if you have any questions. Best of luck with the rest of the edits! Nadhika99 (talk) 06:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

For future editors, I recommend trying to address the cleanup banners at the top of the page. There seems to be a whole slew of OR ("Thus socioeconomic status—and therefore political participation—is correlated with race"), but it's hard to tell what was recently added and what was rearranged. Please make sure that your edits are repeating and fairly representing the claims of the materials and are not making new ones. E.g., the sourcing in "Political representation" does not appear to address the core subject of how the U.S. racial achievement gap affects political representation. Instead it uses studies to connect low SES with representation, which would be all right if it were only brief supplementation for the main point: the U.S. racial achievement gap. czar ♔ 22:13, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello all

I am going to making some additions to this page in the near future. Wanted to see what you all thought of including information from these sources.

Kurlaender, M., & Howell, J. S. (2012). Academic preparation for college: Evidence on the importance of academic rigor in high school. advocacy & policy center affinity network background paper. ().College Board Advocacy & Policy Center, 45 Columbus Avenue, New York, NY 10023. Retrieved from ERIC Retrieved from https://search.proquest.com/docview/1361847783?accountid=14496

Is the Bay Area Preparing Latino High School Graduates for College? A statistical Portrait of College Preparation in the San Francisco Bay Area 2007 by Chavez, Lisa, Medina, Oscar, Arredondo, Gabino — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1Mehayla (talk • contribs) 23:04, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

College Graduation Rate

There should be more information about college success rates and solutions for college programs in closing the racial achievement gap. — Marcstar3 (talk) 21:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Incorporating the role of school disciplinary practices

There is a lot of good information on this article, but I noticed that discussion of the impact of school disciplinary practices on the racial achievement gap is limited. I am planning on providing some edits that can expand on this, specifically how suspensions and other punishments can influence drop out rates and academic performance. I have more information about my sources on my user page. Bgreaves18 (talk) 03:18, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Merged content from Achievement gaps in the United States

Hi, you've likely noticed that I recently moved a lot of content over from the "racial achievement gap" section of Achievement gaps in the United States, in order to make that a proper summary style section and consolidate all of the detailed information here in one place. I did the best I could at merging the content in a sensible and coherent way, but I'm sure there are still many improvements to be made. I'd appreciate help finding any inconsistencies or errors, duplicated material, etc. Stonkaments (talk) 23:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Stonkaments. Actually... I hadn't noticed your changes, because they seemed quite reasonable to me. I will have a look to confirm that the merging was coherent and consistent. I have found that sort of thing challenging too; I have trouble carving out redundant content that is the result of merging (not suggesting that your merge had that problem). Thank you for providing this update and "heads up" on the talk page for editors such as myself who might come along later! I wish everyone were so diligent.--FeralOink (talk) 12:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

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