Talk:Religion in Italy

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not complete list[edit]

the percents only add up to 98.4, where is the other 1.6% Slash's snakepit 00:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

the percents add up to 92.8%, the remaining 7.2% is Atheist or Non Religious, but as it is not a precise figure ('cos it is produced by a subtraction of the other figures from 100%) I thought it was better to not add it in the article. --Checco 09:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Consistency between Eurobarometer data and Christian sources[edit]

I am not a registered user, I just stumbled upon this article. I'd like to point out that, according to the Eurobarometer Poll data shown on this page, roughly 90% of Italian citizens believe in God or some kind of spirit or life force. On the other hand, denominational sources (i.e., the Annuario Pontificio or those listed in the references section) report that more than 91% of Italians belong to the Christian faith. That is, at least 600,000 Italians are non-believing Christians. Aside from any remarks about the percentage of non practicing Christians and the difference between the number of baptized citizens and that of believers, I guess that those data should be edited somehow to avoid bizarre inconsistencies. 82.61.146.126 (talk) 16:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the problem: different polls almost always give different results. In this case the results are very similar and consistent with each other, thus it is not the case to worry about it. --Checco (talk) 16:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

2011 Ipsos MORI survey[edit]

Concerning [1].

On the graph I see—on page 41 of the PDF I have (pages aren't numbered within the document)—"Islam" is given the light green colour, and for Italy is clearly enough marked with a "1". "Any other religion" is given the pink colour and is very clearly marked with a "2". --Atethnekos (DiscussionContributions) 06:43, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Atethnekos. The PDF download link is a dead link now, I'm afraid. I've tried to find it elsewhere. No joy. If you or Septate could send it to me as an attachment, I'll have something to work from. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:53, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy:, yeah sure, send me off an email Special:EmailUser/Atethnekos and then I can reply with the attachment. --Atethnekos (DiscussionContributions) 06:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
@Atethnekos: Received with thanks. Islam is definitely 1%, while 'other' is 2%. I'll revert the chart to the correct figures now. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:35, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy,Atethnekos. Thanks for correcting mistake.Septate (talk) 08:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Cheers, Septate. Thanks for self-reverting when you realised you'd made a mistake. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:00, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Images (message for User:115ash)[edit]

@User:115ash: It is not good to discuss through edit summaries, thus I'm going to explain a few things about this article and my edits fixing yours (this article is not mine, but I worked on it a lot). You wanted to include a different image of the Mosque of Rome and the image of the Florence Cathedral. Fair enough. As you have seen, I have incorporated your proposals and I added the Milan Cathedral: please don't remove it, as is more relevant from a religious point of view (the "Florence cathedral is one of the greatest works in the architecture", but this is not "Architecture of Italy"!), or the cathedral of the Italo-Albanian Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi. Please also understand that images are ordered following the order of the article (Catholic Church, Italo-Albanian Church, Protestant churches, Jews and Muslims—it would be great to have an image of an Assemblies of God's temple too), with the exception of the Milan and Florence cathedrals, which are basically fillers. Finally, I removed the two references on the Florence Cathedral because, again, they're not very relevant to this article and one can find all the useful information in the dedicated article. Feel free to edit the article as you want, but please try to seek consensus and avoid total roollbacks. Cheers, --Checco (talk) 08:15, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@Checco. Thanks for having created a discussion here. The Florence Cathedral is very influential and is a masterpiece of world architecture. Anyway, in bottom should be fine. With regard to the mosque, although Islam is not that large in Italy, I believe it should be on above, as it very famous and the biggest in the Western World. Thanks--115ash→(☏) 10:51, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I understand, but I also think that images should follow the articele's flow. For obvious reasons, Jews are cited before Muslims, thus it is better and, indeed, more logical to have the Mosque after the Synagogue of Florence, but, if you will, before San Giorgio dei Greci. --Checco (talk) 10:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to place the Mosque after the Synagogue, for the reasons explained above. --Checco (talk) 09:03, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by "Jews are cited before Muslims"? Islam is currently the 2nd largest both in the world and Italy.--115ash→(☏) 14:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
The "Overview" follows a logic: Catholics, the other two Italian "native" churches, the Jews and finally the religions brought to Italy mainly by immigrants. Images should follow the same, identical logic. --Checco (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Two observations:
1) I don't see any logical or policy/guideline-based reason to treat this as if priorities are rooted in a chronological basis.
2) The article in overburdened with images as it stands. If anything needs to be discussed, it is trimming back the number of images to comply with WP:LAYIM. A gallery could be used if considered that WP:ITSIMPORTANT to depict numerous buildings, but I would remind you that the WP:TITLE is "Religion in Italy", not "Religious architectural features in Italy". --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:24, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I totally agree. In fact, I was not among the users who added most of the images. It would be easy for me to remove the Milan and Florence cathedrals because I feel they are completely redundant, but what about creating a gallery of images at the bottom of the article or removing all the images except two or three of them? I'm not sure which of the two solutions I'm proposing is better. --Checco (talk) 08:01, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Agree , but as there many mosques in Italy, at least the biggest can be put on the top.--115ash→(☏) 10:15, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
There are more Protestant churches than mosques in Italy, so what? Please refrain from moving the images and wait for consensus to be formed. Until a new consensus is formed, it is generally wise to leave the established version of the article. Therefore, I'm going to rollback your edit regarding the image of the Mosque of Rome. Btw, do you have any sources on "one of the largest Islamic centres in western world"? --Checco (talk) 12:02, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
There is no reason to moving it down. Abou what sources are you talking about? If it is the largest outside the Islamic world, then obviously it is one of the largest in the Western world.--115ash→(☏) 14:07, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
And there is no impelling reason for moving it up, so you wait for consensus to be formed. The source says that the Mosque of Rome is Europe's largest and doesn't say anything else, thus there is no source on "the largest outside the Islamic world" or "one of the largest in the Western world". Please refrain from making edits which are not supported by consensus nor sources: seek consensus first and beaware that the current consensus is the established version. I'm quite an inclusive guy and, in fact, as I did with your edits, I usually avoid total rollbacks and try to find the good that is in them. Please do the same. This edit of yours, while we are discussing, is a little bit disruptive. --Checco (talk) 14:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Ps: This edit of mine contains a wrong edit summary. I wanted to write "no consensus and no source for "one of the largest in the Western world".
There are several reasons why the mosque should be on top. Please avoid from starting an edit war.--115ash→(☏) 14:59, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
You provided for just one. If there is an edit war here, you started it. --Checco (talk) 15:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Btw, do you agree with moving most of the images to a gallery so that only a few images, mainly St. Peter's Basilica and the Mosque of Rome, will be in the main part of the article? --Checco (talk) 15:34, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Addressing the issue of a gallery, I think I've already made it clear that in light of the WP:TITLE all arguments for creating a gallery fall under WP:PPOV. If you check other articles on this subject matter for any other country, there are no galleries, therefore as a matter of parity I don't see how this article is any different to a standard that's been established for Wikipedia, nor do I see any reason to break with this standard.
115ash, as regards the Mosque of Rome, no WP:OR. The entire argument for 'biggest in the Western world' is both WP:SYNTH and redundant unless there are WP:RS to back up the assertion. As to where it is positioned, please don't POV push. Two or three examples of religious centres is ample. This is not a competition, and the number of images detracts from the primary content: being text-based. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Source provided. However that isn't the largest in Europe. Turkey's ones are larger. A gallery should be a better option. Just added.--115ash→(☏) 08:18, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────No, your content changes were by no means a solution. Essentially, all you did was add a gallery in an inappropriate part of the article and duplicate the images already cluttering the page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:54, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

So what will the solution be?--115ash→(☏) 10:50, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure. At this point there have only been three editors involved in the discussion, and Checco hasn't been active on Wikipedia for a few days. For the moment, I'd suggest that we leave the content as it stands for a few more days until the discussion is revived. After that, we could ask for an experienced, neutral 3rd party to take a look and make an assessment. Failing that, there are other methods for finding consensus. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:26, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
Following Iryna Harpy's reasoning, I rollbacked 115ash's latest edit. I support any of the following three options:
  • the current version (even though I think that the Milan and Florence cathedrals are redundant);
  • the introduction of a gallery (even though Iryna Harpy is right when she says that "in light of the WP:TITLE all arguments for creating a gallery fall under WP:PPOV" and that "all [115ash] did was add a gallery in an inappropriate part of the article and duplicate the images already cluttering the page";
  • leaving only a few images, like St. Peter's Basilica, the Mosque of Rome and the Great Synagogue of Florence.
--Checco (talk) 10:22, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
Checco's 3rd option could be better, but still it is not clear why the mosque should be on bottom of the synagogue.--115ash→(☏) 09:17, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
The third option is also my preference. As to the order, I really have no great preference other than 1) Christianity (Catholicism) is the major religion and established itself in Europe under the Roman Empire (i.e., historical context); 2) There have been a long-established and ongoing Jewish communities (including Jewish quarters) throughout Italian history (more specifically it's historical proto-territories before the 19th creation of the Italian state), whereas there is little in the way of an Islamic presence historically. Why not pop in a Protestant church... or something else altogether? Why is the depiction of a mosque before a synagogue such a huge content problem? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Let's go with the third option (without including a Prostant church, in my view; in case you want to include it, I would also include an Orthodox church). St. Peter's Basilica should go at the top of the page, the Great Synagogue of Florence in correspondence of the explanation on Judaism in Italy and the Mosque of Rome in correspondence of its citation. I don't think this should be controversial. --Checco (talk) 06:36, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
My last edit could be fine.--115ash→(☏) 09:24, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Could... in fact, I don't support it, while I favour placing the images consistently with the text. --Checco (talk) 10:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Even the GALLERY was a good option. --115ash→(☏) 14:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I agree with Checco. In plain language, the number of images is pure overkill, and it's best to keep the images in line with the text... so three images is ample. Again, I only saw a gallery as a compromise if other editors were keen to use the page as display brochure for architectural styles to be found around Italy, but it's not. I think it would be far more constructive simply add a WikiCommons link "Category:Religion in Italy" to the external links section of this article. That's the standard for parallel articles on Wikipedia. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

@User:115ash: Your latest edits are clearly against consensus and sources:
  • the two images you are removing have been there for years, so there was consensus for them and, as the above discussion shows, no other consensus was formed (despite the fact that both User:Iryna Harpy and I would remove some images, including that of the Florence cathedral);
  • we have a source saying that the Mosque of Rome is Europe's largest, so what's your problem with it?
--Checco (talk) 11:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
It seems likely that the Mosque of Rome is the largest in Europe, larger than the Baitul Futuh and the Moscow Cathedral Mosque. But that reference[1] is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. It's a website promoting archaeological tours in Rome, so has a WP:COI in emphasising the glory of Rome, it is not the work of authorities on modern religious buildings of Europe (see the FAQ for the organisations concerned) and it is not being meticulously updated (see again the FAQ for the boilerplate Latin "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet...."). Can you provide a WP:RS? NebY (talk) 12:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
We can definitely find a better source (go ahead, please! it looks like you know Rome, Latin and the issue itself better than me). I did not add the source, in fact. Anyway, there is no reason why removing "Europe's largest" and its inadequate source, while leaving "one of the largest in the Western world" without any source. --Checco (talk) 12:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Thank you NebY, I have removed [2] because it is not a reliable source. JimRenge (talk) 16:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Marco Placidi. "La Moschea di Roma". sotterraneidiroma.it. 
  2. ^ Marco Placidi. "La Moschea di Roma". sotterraneidiroma.it. 

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────We clearly haven't resolved the issue of de-cluttering the image component of the article. I've gone further and removed the Krishna temple (please bear in mind that the Krishna movement is an offshoot of Hinduism, but is not recognised as Hinduism). Multiple images representing minor religious sects - which is what the Hare Krishnas' are - is UNDUE clutter. I realise that I'm taking a bit of an upside-down approach to this by letting it stand at 115ash's latest removals + an additional removal of my own, but it might be a good starting point for a fresh take on which images should take precedence. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:55, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

The images of the Albanian church and the Waldensian one have long been part of the article, the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church and the Waldensian Evangelical Church being native churches of Italy. Moreover, the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church has three or four times the membership of Judaism in Italy, while Waldensians are probably little more than Jews. This said, I agree that the Hare Krishna's temple was out-of-scope here and I always agreed that the article has too many images, but we haven't found a consensus yet. After Iryna Harpy's bold move, I decided that it is time for me to be bold too and that was time to remove the Greek Orthodox cathedral in Venice and the Catholic cathedrals of Milan and Florence: Greek Orthodox Christians are a tiny minority (far less important than Italo-Albanians and Waldensians from a historical point of view), while Catholics are already represented by St Peter's Basilica. --Checco (talk) 07:48, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Ciao Checco, I find your removal of pictures ok, but I have a little remark: St. Peter lies in Vatican city, not in Italy, so I think that it is out of scope here. It would be better to use another church (St. John, the Duomo in Milan, Santa Maria del Fiore). Alex2006 (talk) 09:23, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
That is undoubtely true, but we should eschew such a formality/technicality in this case: it is more relevant and coherent to the article's content to underline, through an image, that Rome (and, thus, Italy) is home to the Vatican and the Holy See. --Checco (talk) 09:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Then maybe it would be better to underline this in the caption, since a similar picture has already been removed from the religion section of the "Italy" article. Alex2006 (talk) 09:43, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
I disagree with that change in Italy.
While not seeing any need for it, I will improve the caption. Please edit it as you like.
--Checco (talk) 09:59, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
~Thanks! Then you can try to reinsert it. I think that it was removed about six months ago. Alex2006 (talk) 14:50, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Catholic patron saints[edit]

I think the sentence about the Catholic patron saints should be removed from the lead. This is an information which is very specific to one religion and I think it shouldn't be one of the two sentences in the lead. I already added the sentence to the article on Catholicism in Italy, where I think is more appropriate. I'm waiting for opinions on this. --Ita140188 (talk) 00:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

As you are probably aware of, the Italian Republic and the Catholic Church have been and are closely tied. The day of St. Francis feast, 4 October, was long a public holiday in Italy. St. Francis and the feast are quite felt in Italy also by non-Catholics. The Five Star Movement, for instance, was launched on the day of St. Francis. In fact, St. Catherine and, especially, St. Francis are effectively the country's patron saints, more than simply the country's Catholic patron saints (as St. Patrick is for the Irish). For all this reasons I support keeping the reference to them in lead. --Checco (talk) 07:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Italy is a secular state. Putting this reference in the lead is misleading and against WP:NPOV. The fact that for historical reasons many national holidays are coincident with Catholic religious holidays is irrelevant in my opinion. --Ita140188 (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I would like if Italy were more secular than what it is now and, in fact, I would argue that Italy is not a properly secular state (the Constitution recognises a too big role to the Catholic Church, in my view). We probably agree on all this, but this is not the matter of our discussion. The patron saints are recognised also by the republican institutions, indeed (see, for instance, here). --Checco (talk) 08:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The separation of church and state is most certainly not clear. Whatever the case, I can't see any particular argument for its being WP:OFFTOPIC. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:03, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I would like to reach a compromise, then. I think it would be better to explain all this in the lead, clarifying the non-perfect nature of the separation of church and state and the predominant role of the Catholic church, citing as an example the national holidays. Then it would make much more sense in my opinion. Thank you for your replies. --Ita140188 (talk) 10:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I consider your proposal as very good and I welcome it with excitement: great idea! Generally speaking, the lead should be a little bit larger than what it is now and there are more important issues to be cited in the lead than the patron saints, who should anyway stay in my personal view. What about you, Ita140188, showing your boldness by expanding the lead? Of course, we should be careful with topics which are inherently at risk of POV, but Iryna Harpy (I guess) and I are here to help. --Checco (talk) 11:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
That's fine by me, so long as it isn't used as a WP:COATRACK. The relationship between church and state would need to be reliably sourced. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:06, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

ISTAT source[edit]

When citing church attendance statistics, ISTAT is used as a source, but in fact the link points to the homepage (dati.istat.it) which is useless, and should be fixed. There is also another source for that section, this corriere della sera article, but it just talks about Campania. Also, it does not state that those percentage are for weekly church attendance, but only for attendance "on a regular basis". I think that until better sources are found, the whole sentence should be marked as "citation needed". --Urticante (talk) 23:54, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

The ISTAT source was OK: you just needed to search for the data.
I found out that there were updated data, thus I updated the article accordingly.
--Checco (talk) 07:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
@Checco: My preference is also for using ISTAT data. Unfortunately, I can only navigate the English language option and all I can find is this. Do you have the urls for data you found in Italian? If it's broken up into a few different urls, I don't mind adding them to the relevant percentages. I think it's necessary for all editors to be able to find them considering that, as we well know, vandals and POVers can tamper with them and there's no way of verifying the correct stats unless we have access to the data. Thanks! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
@Checco: Could you tell me what exactly you searched? I tried but could not find those data. --Urticante (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
@Urticante: On the left menu in the english version select Social participation > Religious observances > Regions and type of municipalities --Ita140188 (talk) 00:00, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks @Ita140188:. Should we explain how to reach the data in the ref? I don't know what's the wikipedia style in this cases, but it "makes sense" to me --Urticante (talk) 05:26, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Why not? Could be a very good idea. Sorry for answering too late. --Checco (talk) 11:07, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:58, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Sorry for late reply! --Ita140188 (talk) 06:57, 22 March 2016 (UTC)


Church Attendance by region or macro-regions (the case of Insular Italy)[edit]

It's senseless group Sardinia with Sicily in the macro region called Insular Italy, because unlike the other macro regions called Central Italy, Southern Italy, North Western and North Eastern Italy, there aren't historical, cultural and social similarities between the two main italian islands, infact church attendance differs completely, Sardinia ranks one of the lowest church attendance in Italy 21.9% while Sicily the highest 37.3 %. The percentage referred to the Insular Italy is highly questionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.39.126.16 (talk) 11:55, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

You're right, but your edits were hardly a solution: you did remove the percentage for the South, left "Insular" instead of "Insular Italy" and inserted several inappropriate spaces. I'll fix all that. But, please, be more careful. --Checco (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2016 (UTC)