Talk:Rest of the Words of Baruch

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untitled[edit]

This artice has no citations and very little information, and yet manages to discredit the book entirely... Braves27 00:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added references of critical editions A ntv (talk) 16:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The book of 4 Baruch is in the Ethiopian Bible except that in the Ethiopian Bible the two sections of it: the Rest of the Words of Baruch and the Letter of Jeremiah are printed separately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.76.88.83 (talk) 13:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The Letter of Baruch is redirecting to 4 Baruch instead of 2 Baruch! How do I correct it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.160.241 (talk) 23:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 19:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Undiscussed Page move[edit]

Created page 4 Baruch A ntv (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

A rather insistent editor has moved this page and dramatically altered its content without engaging in any discussion or offering any sources for the changes beyond "because I say so" on his talkpage. I would like for there to be some discussion and sourcing of these changes which I consider to be OR, and the page should never have been moved from 4 Baruch. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

If you read carefully, you will see that the "Rest of the Words of Baruch", which is what is in the Ethiopic Book of Jeremiah, includes parts of Lamentations. Thus, it is not the same thing as 4 Baruch at all. If you spend the time to read 4 Baruch, it will be immediately obvious that this was never intended as religious scripture but is a fictionalized and entertaining re-telling of 2 Baruch. This is noted in both articles. 4 Baruch can be found online. It is a lovely fairy tale of lost time, magical figs, and rising from the dead. Read it; you might like it! Adminster (talk) 19:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I have read it, thanks. Do you have any Reliable source for the view that it is "fictionalized and entertaining", or would it be your own OR and POV? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I understand you maybe upset at something; you have my sympathies. "Fictionalized and entertaining" does not need a source since this is a Talk page. But, look, 4 Baruch is fun. Stories about magic figs and an ancient predecessor of the Legends from Sleepy Hollow make great reading for young children. To be honest, I liked it myself. Please, enjoy life a little more and laugh! Adminster (talk) 19:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks but this is just your POV about miracles that are recorded in the Ethiopian Bible, so it deserves the same respect as beliefs encountered in books of other world faiths including the Hebrew Bible, New Testament, Koran, Buddhist and Hindu Scriptures, Mormon, etc.; even if we as neutral editors might not share all these beliefs personally! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
No, its not POV, since it comes directly from the book itself. Besides, this is a Talk page, I may say what I want. So can you. Also, if you have any proof that this "4 Baruch" is identical to what is found at the end of Ethiopic Jeremiah, add that to this article. But since the Rest of the Words of Baruch also includes a Lamentations 7, it and 4 Baruch are not the same thing in the first place. And we are talking about part of another book, not a book of its own. Adminster (talk) 20:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
If you really think you can say whatever you want here, try going into Talk:Quran or Talk:Talmud and say what you just said here about the Ethiopian Bible, being "fictionalized and entertaining"... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Read what I wrote. Greek 4 Baruch and the Ethiopic Rest of the Words of Baruch are not the same thing. The Rest of the Words of Baruch include Lamentations 7 and is at the back of Ethiopic Jeremiah. The "fictionalized and entertaining" Greek is a book, the Ethiopic form parts of a book. Adminster (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
You seem to have come up with an arbitrary division as if the Ethiopic and Greek translations are separate works, they are the identical book in two different languages and are certainly recognized as such; the Ethiopic version just contains an additional chapter. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Is this article about the book in the Ethiopiac Canon of Eighty One (Broader Canon), or is it about a psuedopigraphical book stemming from Byzantine Christianity? Both books have been referred to as 4 Baruch, despite the fact the text is not identical. In either instances, calling it "The Rest of the Writings of Jeremiah" is misleading to everybody. jonathon (talk) 01:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposed new title[edit]

The book in the Ethiopian Bible is actually known as Terefe Ermyas, which actually means Rest of Jeremiah. It includes not only 4 Baruch aka Paraleipomena of Jeremiah, but before that, another work known as Epistle of Jeremiah. I propose we move this article to Terefe Ermyas since that is its canonical Orthodox name, along the lines of Meqabyan. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

This is en.wikipedia.org. The language is English. Do you know Ethiopic? If you do, you can put it in Ethiopian Wikipedia, but it has to be agreed to by other users who know Ethiopic fluently.
If you read Meqabyan, you will see that the title had to be agreed to by others who know the language. It was chosen because there are other books known as Maccabees. But here, there is nothing else known as the "Rest of the Words of Baruch," so there is no ambiguity. Adminster (talk) 20:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I do read and have some familiarity with Ge'ez (Ethiopic), and also contribute heavily to the Amharic language wikipedia as a bureaucrat. If you look in an Ethiopian Amharic Bible you will find this listed only as Terefe Ermyas ("Rest of Jeremiah"); it, or parts of it, may go by various other titles for different translations, including Baruch 4, and Paralopeimomena of Jeremiah, but 'Rest of the Words of Baruch' is probably not the best title for the Ethiopian canon book to be found at. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Quoting The Islamic Awareness website's copy of Cowley (1974) The Biblical Canon Of The Ethiopian Orthodox Church Today: "6. The accepted text of Jeremiah 1-52 is followed by Baruch (5 chapters, but shorter than the LXX text), and Säqoqawä Eremyas. The latter is made up of Lamentations (5 chapters), the epistle to the captives (Lam. 6), the prophecy against Pashhur (Lam. 7 v. 1-5)[10] and 'the rest of the words of Baruch' (4 Baruch, Lam. 7 v. 6-11 v. 63)." This suggests that Terefe Ermyas is more appropriate than either 4 Baruch, or The Words of the Rest of Jeremiah. jonathon (talk) 01:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree to change the name to this Article in Terefe Ermyas. I have created a different Article for 4 Baruch because such a text has survived also in the original Greek and in other languages different from Ge'ez (see 4 Baruch where I've listed in the notes the main codex). 4 Baruch is known also as Rest of the Words (Paralipomena) of Jeremiah, not ..... of Baruch. A ntv (talk) 14:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

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