Talk:Royal Air Force roundels

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nomenclature[edit]

came across a statement that the nomenclature is a post-war invention and not what they were known as at the time. "Type I, Type II, Type III...relating to.... B, C, C1 respectivley". Anyone known more?GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I take it you are referring to this forum thread? I wasn't aware that the "Type A/B/C/D" nomenclature was unofficial but it's plausible - I think we need to refer to a good book on the subject. Letdorf (talk) 15:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC).
It may not be "unoffical" now. But if they had alternate names at the time it would be useful to know that. GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. Letdorf (talk) 14:04, 23 March 2009 (UTC).

I recall reading many years ago that Bruce Robertson was credited with grouping the roundel variations into types, I suspect that it ill be referenced in his book 'Aircraft Markings of the World 1912-1967. London: Harleyford, 1967' although I don't have a copy at least one other contributor has cited it. Kitbag (talk) 20:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the official sheets for the markings and all they have used are the I,II,III etc - however these numbers are not specific to the roundels, but just a way to differentiate them as later sheets reuse the same numbers for later roundels. Everyone uses the A,B,C,D system but I have never seen anything on it being invented by Robertson (I checked his book and he certainly uses it, and he doesn't say where he got the letters from) - does anyone have more info? It certainly sounds plausible as it it has the air of having been invented after the C/C1 roundels as it would make little sense prior to then. If it was made up after the war (even if by the RAF) then this should be mentioned on the page. FWIW RAF rescue launches late in the war used effectively a D.1 roundel, seemingly in dull colours (I have 1 colour photo which isn't enough to be 100% sure), just to confuse things I am sure.NiD.29 (talk) 04:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

RAAF and SEAC "Far East" roundels.[edit]

The difference is that the RAAF (i.e. Royal AUSTRALIAN air force) roundel (which became standard for all RAAF aircraft except those working with the RAF in Europe or North Africa) was blue and white - whereas the RAF SEAC roundel was, officially at least, dark and light blue (as illustrated). Since this was applied in the field it seems that white was often used instead of light blue - but this is different from RAAF practice, which (AFAIK) NEVER used light blue - white being the official colour.

This needs to be (authoritively) clarified, using a good source. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

IIRC (I don't have sources to hand) SEAC used both blue/white and (later) blue/blue (blue/azure?) roundels. Also the FAA used a blue/white roundel with white US-style bars in the Pacific theatre [1]. Letdorf (talk) 22:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC).

Colours of anti-flash version[edit]

I made the anti-flash white svg, but i have no idea about the real colours. I picked them fromanother image. (of a BAC TSR-2.) Has anybody a reliable source for the colours?--ospalh (talk) 15:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Another TSR-2 help File:UKMilitarySerial-XR220.jpg it is only the serial but may be the same as the roundel. MilborneOne (talk) 17:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
The colours in your SVG looks reasonable. According to this, the anti-flash roundel colours were from BS 2660. Letdorf (talk) 22:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC).
The Valiants in anti-flash white used an intermediate type of faded Type D roundel for a while, the colours appear less saturated than the normal Type D, but not as faded as the definitive 'pale' Type D. Definitely different from the normal Type D, but not the same as the 'pale' version used on the other aircraft. I suspect that the Valiant version was tried at the Maralinga and other tests and then the colours toned-down even further on the Vulcan and Victor. There's some colour film of the Valiant and the nuclear-test Valiants in 'Engineering Britain's Cold War Superweapons' (you can find the three videos on Veoh) and even allowing for differences in colour film reproduction, the roundels are definitely not (or at least, don't appear to be) the normal Type D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.253.31 (talk) 11:54, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
1960s cine film of various aircraft including a Valiant and Vulcan both with pale 'faded' roundels here: [2] - see around 2:59 and 3:12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 20:16, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Valiants with 'pale' anti-flash roundels and fin flashes here (photo at bottom of page): [3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.18.184 (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Non-aviation cultural use[edit]

Should mention that the basic "Type D" (File:RAF roundel.svg) was taken up as the symbol of the early-1960s "Mods" and was used by "The Who" in their earlier years (they started off as a kind of Mod band), etc... AnonMoos (talk) 22:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

If you can cite RSs, then yes, an "In popular culture" section might be appropriate. Letdorf (talk) 12:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC).
Just noticed this is mentioned in the Roundel article. Letdorf (talk) 12:28, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Display problem[edit]

For me the roundels in the table display with flattened bases and RHS. Playing with the padding seemed to improve the bottom but the RHS was nastily aliased. Rich Farmbrough, 18:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC).

No problems with display on my monitor - are round graphics generally flattened on yours, or just here? Sounds like a problems with your "display" settings rather than something we need to fix by editing the page. I had to fiddle with mine when I changed to a wide monitor - think I have it right at last now.--Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:51, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Looks fine to me too - sounds like you might have some kind of text/graphics scaling issue with your web browser? Regards, Letdorf (talk) 23:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC).

Colour Changes[edit]

The RAF used different colours at different times - the versions posted are incorrect for any of the colours used. During ww1 and until the late 1920's a greyish version of the blue was used (similar to RAF blue) - this changed during the late 20's but no official order has been found, but it is known that this change occured at the same time the RAF dispensed with rudder stripes. During the period immediately before WW2, the colours were changed again, to a dull version that would be used during the war. The Yellow remained the same (and it is not a pale cream as shown but a slightly orange yellow as was used on RAF trainers). During the immediate postwar period, the colours reverted to the early 1930's colours.

Do you seriosuly think I just spent several hours to download an svg editor, draw and upload all new roundels to vandalize a page? Furthermore, It was obvious I was mid-edit and I will provide sources.NiD.29 (talk) 23:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

RNAS roundels 1914-1915.svg

Still working on sources (interwar stuff is hard to find) however it occurs to me that the page should be named British Military Roundels so as to include the Royal Naval Air Service, which for a brief time had its own distinct roundel (much like the contemporary French roundel, but lacking the center blue dot, and usually outlined in white), and prior to this both RFC and RNAS used Union Jacks. The RNAS is unlikely to have a page devoted to its one unique insignia and should be listed somewhere (other FAA markings are mentioned here). Unfortunately no colour information is available but was probably standard off the shelf colours. Comments?

I really think that "RAF roundel" should stay, at least if we are thinking of changing it because of the RNAS. I mean the RAF was (and in a sense remains) a composite of the RFC and the RNAS, drawing on the traditions of both "services". The Fleet Air Arm is a better argument for renaming the article, if one insists. Unless one is an Air force Man and considers the Fleet Air Arm to be an administratively inspired anomaly.--Soundofmusicals (talk) 17:13, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
British military aviation roundels, military aviation roundels of the United Kingdom, could be several more descriptive article names. But I would suggest we keep it at the current one as a case of Common-although-misguided-name and just be sure that the lede accurately describes the contents and that all the roundels are covered somewhere in it. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:26, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Danish Roundel?[edit]

Someone had the rather fanciful idea that the RNAS roundel was changed ro match the RFC one to avoid confusion with the DANISH national marking. Not really - although the Danish red/white roundel does seem to have been used quite early, it was certainly not current in 1915! On top of this, Denmark is a very small country - its air corps at the time was very rudimentary indeed, and it was not a combatant in the 1914-1918 war. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:13, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

The Danish connection seems to keep coming back from the dead - the Danes were a minor fringe power, and the proportions were never even close, being more like a b type roundel. The real reason for the change was to be consistent with the RFC who had finally gotten around to choosing a roundel in place of the Union flag (which could be confused for a cross). One might think that the RNAS roundel had some connection with the French roundel (being basically similar but lacking the blue) however in nearly every case a white outline was used on the RNAS roundel, and in cases of aircraft delivered in French markings, those were retained, and the blue wasn't even overpainted.NiD.29 (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Not sure if there is any documentary (as opposed to photographic) evidence of this. Complicated by the fact that red can appear darker or lighter than blue in a black and white picture - depending on the chemistry of the film (wouldn't you know it, both kinds were already in use in 1914)- which makes it hard to determine in some cases if a particular roundel is "British" or "French". Inter-service rivalry at one stage said that almost anything the army (RFC) did the navy had to do the opposite. Any way, I think the "red ring" marking was probably considered to be a roundel representation of the white ensign rather than an "edited" French roundel "with the blue dot painted out". Although it would be hard to determine (very few RNAS aircraft were ever photographed with the "red ring" marking). My point was very simply that the red and white Danish roundel "has nothing to do with the case" (W.S.Gilbert) - and the recent edit that introduced it needed to be edited out. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 16:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Several Air Britain books on RNAS aircraft that show red rings but original documentation is scarce. Orthochromatic film makes it fairly clear whether a roundel is French or British as the blue was rendered very pale, and the red very dark (too many hours looking at photos of Nieuports - both French and British - there are numerous ways of confirming which is which and few exceptions to this). Confusion occurs mostly when both are very dark. Panchromatic film did not become common enough to be a confounding factor until the 20s. Being a representation of the white ensign is the best explanation I have heard and makes sense. The blue dot painted out was an explanation I read someone once - I mentioned it merely to kill the idea - the proportions of French roundels was fairly well established (1:2:3 on most types, or 1:3:5 on SPADs) and the RNAS roundel clearly does not match either, regardless of the additional white outline.NiD.29 (talk) 02:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

F-35 insignia[edit]

Should the article be updated to reflect the insignia seen on the F-35Bs? LostCause231 (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2015 (UTC)