Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 July 2024

The war hit Romani people

https://m.thewire.in/article/rights/how-russias-war-has-hit-ukraines-roma-people/amp 2600:6C50:7E00:316:A4A0:CC7B:8B87:890 (talk) 03:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 06:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 July 2024 (Belligerents section)

add china to Belligerents section on russia side as xi jimping and putin are allies and xi might be giving putin weapons 173.72.3.91 (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: That's not the definition of a belligerent and China's involvement is mentioned in the #Russian military suppliers section – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 20:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Requested move 30 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Speedy close, IP editors are not allowed to open move requests for this page per the warning about Community Sanctions on this page, particularly: non-extended-confirmed editors may not make edits to internal project discussions related to the topic area, even on article talk pages. Internal project discussions include, but are not limited to...requested moves.... It's also worth noting that this specific retitling proposal was already considered and WP:SNOW-opposed in March 2022. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

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Russo-Ukrainian War → Russia-Ukraine War – The title should just have the 2 fighting countries Russia and ukraine. most articles i see define this as the russia ukraine war. the term russo is hardly ever used so it should say russia not russo. 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:15, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

You have to tell us what you want to name it, we can't guess. Slatersteven (talk) 15:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for now actually telling us (this was added after my reply) now explain why. Slatersteven (talk) 15:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, changes made to the request after I replied. Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

i was not finished with the explanation yet 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:32, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

i wrote the request but before the explanation i got an edit conflict because of your reply 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Also see Russo-Japanese War Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878) Russo-Georgian War, this is not an unusual styling. Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

but most news websites now like CNN style this as the Russia Ukraine war 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Do they? I see a lot of results for "Ukraine Russia war" and our current title (such as nato [[1]]). Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

https://www.hrw.org/tag/russia-ukraine-war human rights watch shows russia ukraine war 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

and the new york times also calls it russia ukraine war along with lot of other websites

https://www.nytimes.com/news-event/ukraine-russia 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

oppose this is a standard WP:NCWWW title —blindlynx 19:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sources (that seem okay)

Ilya Ponomarev, (went against, or ) opposed several of Putin's top projects in Russian politics, including voting against the occupation of Crimea in 2014. He went into exile in Ukraine in 2016.--Source,

https://yle.fi/a/74-20010573 , 2014-08-01 @12.37.--Anyone, or i, can add text. Good luck! 80.67.37.2 (talk) 11:03, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure this is a good source,. Slatersteven (talk) 11:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds about right. Here is another source saying the same thing. Meduza is a Russian-language media based in Latvia, they are usually reliable. Alaexis_¿question? 19:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 August 2024

I want to edit this Awilt17 (talk) 07:31, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

This template allows you to propose a specific change that you believe should be made to the article a 'change x to y format'. Permission to edit the page directly isn't granted in this manner. The permission is one that is automatically applied to users once they meet its requirements. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Cuban support to Russia

Consider this an edit request: Someone should add Cuban involvement under "Russian military suppliers" as Cubans have absolutely been involved in the fighting as infantry/manpower.
Source: https://www.wsj.com/world/how-russia-recruits-soldiers-from-cubato-fight-inukraine-709b5ac3 -- DC Ambrose (talk) 11:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

We do not list mercenaries. Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Not all of them are mercenaries though, they've been officially joining the Russian army to add to their manpower: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-19/war-in-ukraine-cubans-are-still-being-recruited-by-russia?embedded-checkout=true "According to the EU, the Kremlin has forced thousands of migrants as well as foreign students and workers to fight alongside Russian troops." --DC Ambrose (talk) 11:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

That still makes them mercenaries. What wouldn't is if they are official units of the Cuban army being sent there, as units of the Cuban army. Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Paragraph about the Ukrainian attack into Russia's Kursk region

A paragraph about the Ukrainian attack into Russia's Kursk region is necessary. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, care to write it? Slatersteven (talk) 11:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The whole story, not just a part

I believe that if it's correct to include the sentence "Russia has carried out attacks on civilians far from the frontline", it's also correct to include "Ukraine has committed attacks on civilians into Russia's Kursk region", or a similar phrase; see, for example, [2] and [3]. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:58, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

First off, MAybe, but Russia carried them out first (as Ukraine had not invaded Russia), and so that should be the Order, Ukraine than Russia. Rather than implying it is the other way around. Second, we have many RS saying (directly) Russia is attacking civilians, you only have provided sources that say Russia has accused Ukraine of attacking civilians (and one of them does not say Civilians have been targeted, only evacuated), thus this 100% needs to be attributed as a Russian claim only. Slatersteven (talk) 15:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Fourth (As I did not pick up on this) this is the wp:lede as such putting even attributed claims in there is dubious unless they make up some degree of the article. Fifth, as far as I know no charges have been brought (led alone successfully prosecuted) at the ICC over accusations of Ukriaian war crimes against civilians. Slatersteven (talk) 15:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The first source makes no claims of Ukrainian attacks on civilians and the second is saying russia is accusing Ukraine of attacks on civilians, it is not saying that Ukraine attacked civilians—blindlynx 15:58, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:DUE applies, I suggest you read this carefully before you continue to edit war. TylerBurden (talk) 19:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@TylerBurden: since I started this conversation, the """edit war""" is over. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Great, you can also stop pinging me constantly, this article is now on my watchlist so it's completely unnecessary. TylerBurden (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

You didn't warn me that I can't ping you, so I'm absolutely not wrong. Please stop blaming me. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

First, it's important to distinguish between intentional attacks and collateral damage. Collateral damage occurs when civilians unintentionally die as a result of a military attack targeting a legitimate military objective, such as a command post. This is a regrettable but often unavoidable consequence of warfare. According to international law, while collateral damage is not illegal per se, the principles of distinction, proportionality, and necessity must be adhered to in order to minimize civilian harm. Investigations by the UN, ICC, and other independent bodies are ongoing to assess these incidents. So far, there is no evidence that Ukraine has intentionally targeted civilians in Russia or in any other location.

Russia's actions in Ukraine have been widely criticized for their brutality. The Kremlin has engaged in extensive propaganda efforts to distort the reality of the conflict, suppress independent journalism, and spread disinformation globally. These tactics have contributed to a narrative that obscures Russia's role in committing widespread violence, including what many consider to be acts of genocide against Ukrainians and indigenous Crimean Tatars. AlasdarVan (talk) 05:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@AlasdarVan: all states on the planet distort reality in their favour. Having said that, I'm leaving this discussion. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

no i think what you rather should do is write pages on North Korea, citing North Korean news. Good luck AlasdarVan (talk) 18:52, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand how that overrides out sourcing standards or policies about due weight—blindlynx 22:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Subjective terms

[4]. @TylerBurden: no, in an encyclopedia it's not correct to include subjective terms such as "many", "deliberate" and "indiscriminate"; I'm aware that there's currently no peace between the United States and Russia, but for an encyclopedia it's not appropriate to include subjective terms. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Go ahead and provide the policy where such terms are banned from Wikipedia. TylerBurden (talk) 19:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I've modified the wording from 'many' to 'repeatedly'. That shouldn't be controversial as 'many' is a WTW with regards vagueness, whilst 'repeatedly' simply indicates that an event has occurred more than once. It's more formal in tone. The other two words, 'deliberate and 'indiscriminate', are used by various reputable sources. The OHCHR source, which is the most authoritative source cited, uses 'indiscriminate' twice in text. Once in discussing Russia's attacks in Chernihiv, and once in acknowledging allegations against Ukraine in the Donetsk region. Mr rnddude (talk) 19:43, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

'deliberate' is used by the bbc source—blindlynx 13:02, 19 August 2024 (UTC)