Talk:Samuel Franklin Cody

Fact Problem?

I can't quite square the claims made by this article with the article written by Cody's step-grandson, John Simpson, in this article: [1], particularly in the early part where Simpson writes:

Later he met a wealthy British dealer called John Blackburn Davis.

Davis hired Cody to bring a consignment of horses to Britain.

He fell in love with Davis's daughter, Lela, and they eloped.

She already had three children, but Cody lovingly brought them up as his own.

One was my grandmother.

However, the author of this article writes these contradictory statements:

who was also touring with two of her younger sons Vivian and Leon King (later to be known as Leon and Vivian Cody to save embarrassment). ... Maud Maria Lee (Cody's real wife) taught the two young boys to ride and shoot on horseback.

... this also included Edward Le Roy, (Edward King, Lela's eldest son from her marriage to Edward John King

The above clearly implies that all three of Lela's children were boys. However, Simpson asserts that one of the three was his grandmother. The name "Vivian" is usually a girl's name, so I would suspect that Vivian King/Cody was Simpson's grandmother. But Simpson doesn't make it easy for us as he fails to name his grandmother in his own article at the link above.

I'm not certain enough of the true facts, but I rather suspect that Vivian is a girl and is Simpson's grandmother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ElbonianFL (talk • contribs) 06:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually Vivian was originally a boys name and only became used as a girl's name later, in a similar way to Lesley. IIRC, the feminine form of Vivian was Vivienne, so the Cody Vivian may well have been a boy.

The truth of the matter is complex and has only slowly unravelled. It can be found in more recent biographies such as Peter Reese's excellent "The Flying Cowboy" (Tempus 2006, reprinted History Press 2008). Some of what follows is taken from Frater's "The Balloon factory." Maud Maria Lee became Cody's real wife. She came with him from America. They then met divorcee Mrs. Lela King (née Davis) and Maud did indeed teach two of her sons, Leon and Vivian King, the gentle arts of the cowboy. Then Maud returned to America, but she and Cody appear never to have divorced. Cody and Lela took up with each other, passing themselves off as man and wife. Lela's eldest child was a daughter, Liese, and only six years younger than Cody himself. Next came Edward. They presented Leon and Vivian as Cody's natural children (not sure about Edward), along with the couple's genuine son, Frank. Even some of the family were fooled and grew up believing Cody to be the boys' father, along with whatever other fairy tales he spun about their ancestry (such as the above quote). It was not until many years after a somewhat spurious biography appeared in 1953, that the truth began to come out. Consequently, even family members are unreliable sources for all this. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC) [Updated 08:30, 3 September 2014 (UTC)]

Mrs King's eldest son Edward [born october 1875] used the stage name of 'Edward LeRoy'. Leon born September 1879. Vivian born August 1882. Her daughter Lizzie [liked to be called Liese] born December 1873. 2A00:23C8:478E:3201:44B5:20AE:44A2:85DC (talk) 12:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Date of lead photo

The date of the photo in the lead has recently been changed from 1906 to 1908 on the grounds that Cody is in front of what is clearly an aeroplane. I have suggested on the maintenance talk page on the Commons that, due to the aileron behind his head, 1909 might be more likely. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

It has to be after mid-1909, since before then the pilots position of the British Army Aeroplane was behind the engine. I'm also dubious abot the date on the photo of him in Wild West gear: the date given is the publication dte from the archive from which it comes, but both costume & Cody's appearance suggest that it is earlier.TheLongTone (talk) 13:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to find out where it came from, at http://www3.hants.gov.uk/cody.jpg is a smaller image but not cropped as much but showing more of a crowd behind him. MilborneOne (talk) 18:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

"Simplicate and add lightness"

"Simplicate and add lightness" is an aphorism used by S F Cody, when asked about his aircraft design philosophy. I read this in an aviation book during the 1950's. The quote is also attributed to other people, well after Cody's death. I remember the book was large but not thick, with many photographs. If anyone can confirm or provide a reference for that quote, please add those to the article. GilesW (talk) 18:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

It's more usually attributed to Ed Heinemann of Douglas A-4 Skyhawk fame I think. It doesn't seem particularly likely for Cody, as his aircraft weren't that light for the time - although he dis have an appreciation of the benefits of size and power.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:29, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

W£hat on earth does "simplicate" mean? It's an overlong and overweight word.TheLongTone (talk) 14:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

It is a play on words. The correction of design faults would normally 'complicate and add weight' to an aircraft's structure, which especially in early under-powered aircraft could be counter-productive. He was highlighting the engineering challenge: to simplify and lighten a flimsy early aircraft without sacrificing its structural strength, in a memorable joke that could equally be applied to the design of racing boats or cars. GilesW (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

O sorry, yes. Cody did make up words. Like NigelIsh I just thought of Heineman.TheLongTone (talk) 22:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Flying helmet

Cody's flying helmet is not significant. A photo of it adds nothing to the article except clutter. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:39, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Tend to disagree. Surely one of the few personal items belonging to Cody that still exists and a prized possession of the Aldershot Military Museum? Gamages was an iconic UK retail business: [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 20:57, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Surely not. A large collection of his kiting stuff and other memorabilia has been preserved and was sold to an American buyer only a few years ago, the claim that it is one of the few items known is utterly false. Such an item only has encyclopedic relevance if sufficient RS discuss it, but the article text does not mention the helmet at all. And good grief! Is Wikipedia to illustrate everything that was ever bought at a once-famous department store and still survives? That's just ridiculous. No, unless someone can dig up RS documenting enough significant encyclopedic information to give it some useful treatment in the main text (and I don't mean just fancruft!), the image is out of place here. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:09, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Not sure where I suggested Wikipedia should "illustrate everything that was ever bought at a once-famous department store and still survives". I don't think the image is "out of place" at all, although I agree an RS would better establish it's notability. Are there any available images of the "large collection of his kiting stuff and other memorabilia"? No objection to their being considered also. Happy to see other views on this image. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:07, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see that the image adds anything useful to the article. It is basically miscellaneous WP:TRIVIA, in an article that already has a lot of images included. It is there on commons along with a lot of other Cody-related images, if anyone wants to see it. - Ahunt (talk) 15:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. Apart from the image of "The wreckage of Cody's fatal air crash", there's no image that ties him directly and personally to being an aviator? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC) p.s. would this Pathé News clip be a useful addition: [3]?

If you want a good aviation image, there are some far more appropriate ones on the Commons. But please take care not to mess up the page layout. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:29, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I may have got confused between his archive rather than his kites, it was a few years ago now. Here is a link to the archive auction page: AVIATION: THE CODY ARCHIVE. CODY, SAMUEL FRANKLIN. 1867-1913., Bonhams, 2014. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)