Talk:Shah Mir

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Jonaraja's description[edit]

[Link to the original content [1]]

@Barthateslisa: Your editing on this article has been highly disappointing. I have given a reliable source (the Rafiq article) along with a link to the PDF file and page numbers. Yet, you have deleted or modified this content numerous times without once checking the source 25 Oct, 17 Nov, 18 Nov, 18 Nov, 19 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov. This is highly inexplicable. By any standards of edit-warring, this is excessive. As such, you immediately qualify for a block.

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Persia is just too far from Kashmir. Also Shahmira had no Turkish roots. Shahmira's origins are given accurately by Jonaraja the court historian of Budshah the direct descent of Shahmira. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.111.90 (talk) 06:27, 15 March 2017 (UTC)




Please look at the source now, and tell us what part of the content you believe is unsourced. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:05, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

What source? No reliable source cited for a claim about Mythology. We are suppose to maintain a NPOV on Wikipedia, instead you are presenting your preferred POV about mythology and history as a fact. Was Arjun a real person? No. He is a character in a text. You are pushing your POV which mixes mythology with history, and ignoring other theories about his origin. I repeat you can not mix mythology with history on Wikipedia. Barthateslisa (talk) 03:57, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
I suppose that means you did not look at the source, and all this while you have been edit-warring based on your WP:OR. Here is what the source says:
The Kashmiri and Mughal historians recount different legends about

the ancestry of Shah Mır. According to Jonaraja, Shah Mır was the descendant of Partha (Arjuna) of Mahabharata fame. Abu ’l-Fadl cAllamı, Nizam al-Dın and Firishta also state that Shah Mır traced his descent to Arjuna, the basis of their account being Jonaraja’s Rajatarangını, which Mulla cAbd al-Qadir Bada’unı translated into Persian at Akbar’s orders. It is likely that either Jonaraja, in order to glorify the family of his patron (Zayn al-cAbidın, a direct descendant of Shah Mır: see below), or Shah Mır, after coming to the throne, worked out an apocryphal genealogy connecting himself with the legendary heroes of the past; this was a common practice with rulers and dignitaries of those days.[1]

References

  1. ^ Baloch, N. A.; Rafiqi, A. Q. (1998), "The Regions of Sind, Baluchistan, Multan and Kashmir" (PDF), in M. S. Asimov; C. E. Bosworth, History of Civilizations of Central Asia, Vol. IV, Part 1 — The age of achievement: A.D. 750 to the end of the fifteenth century — The historical, social and economic setting, UNESCO, p. 311, ISBN 978-92-3-103467-1 
I am afraid your branding of Mahabharata as "mythology" is also WP:OR. Reliable sources call it either an "epic" or "legendary".
I would very much hope that you will reexamine your own conduct in this dispute, which is far below the standard we expect on ARBIPA pages. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:06, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Apparently you have read the selected portion, the author clearly calls it a POV not a fact. The author who you are citing himself is disputing the claims of what he calls biased historians. On the other hand you partially quoted him to say that Shah Mir was a descendant of Arjuna, who BTW is a figure of mythology. The very source you have mentioned denies the claim as made up history. Barthateslisa (talk) 12:20, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Here you go, quoting from the source for your convenience,

"It is likely that either Jonaraja, in order to glorify the family of his patron (Zayn ¯ al-cAbidin, a direct descendant of Shah Mir, or Shah Mir, after coming to the throne, worked out an apocryphal genealogy connecting himself with the legendary heroes of the past; this was a common practice with rulers and dignitaries of those days. According to some Persian chronicles of Kashmir, Shah Miır was a descendant of the rulers of Swat, but it is more probable that his ancestors were of Turkish or Persian origin and had migrated to Swat..."

The author is himself denying those claims. Barthateslisa (talk) 12:28, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, if you have noticed, the information from the Persian sources were also added in my edit. My edit also said that the descent from Arjuna is likely to be "concocted genealogy". What exactly is your complaint? You have been deleting sourced content based on your personal opinion. That is not the way to write Wikipedia. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
By the way, there are no "facts" here. We have historical information received via two sources. Both of them need to be mentioned as per WP:NPOV. Nobody has given us the authority to decide which is fact and which is not. Besides, even fictional accounts should be mentioned when they are cited by reliable sources. They also give us useful information about the social conditions and historical events. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:05, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
There are not two sources, there is only one source here, i.e. the work of NA Rafiqi, no other source cited for Jonaraja's mythological claim. Rafiqi himself has denied the claim about mythology, then how can it be mentioned, was this theory about mythology attributed to him on the page, in absence of other sources? The edits did not maintain NPOV. Rafiqi is the prime source here, if you are using his work as a source, don't use it partially. There is no independent source for the mythology claim here. As per Rafiqi, Mir was a Turk/ Persian, whose family migrated to Swat and he later migrated to Kashmir. Claims about Mir's mythological history have been mentioned as a trivia by Rafiqi and dismissed in the same para, so the claim about Mir being Arjuna's descendant is dismissed mythology trivia, not HISTORY, as per the source. Barthateslisa (talk) 04:48, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
This line should end this discussion: "Nobody has given us the authority to decide which is fact and which is not. Besides, even fictional accounts should be mentioned when they are cited by reliable sources."
Whose "line" is this BTW? Barthateslisa (talk) 15:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

(2600:1001:B010:93FE:9DF5:8A11:14FB:3A56 (talk) 14:14, 23 November 2016 (UTC))

I support Kautilya3. We should move forward with his argument. (2600:1001:B010:93FE:9DF5:8A11:14FB:3A56 (talk) 14:17, 23 November 2016 (UTC))
You can't add POV based on secondary source as facts. Period.

It will be corrected as per the norm. Barthateslisa (talk) 15:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Kautilya3 provided reference, you provided none except moot argument. Two of us who are knowledgeable about this subject is being opposed due to bias. (2600:1001:B010:93FE:9DF5:8A11:14FB:3A56 (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC))


──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Barthateslisa:, There are two historical sources that Rafiq is drawing from, Jonaraja and Persian chronicles. As a good scholar, he mentioned both of them and stated which he favours. That is exactly what we are doing. If you want more sources, use Google books. Rafiq thinks that Shah Mir's family were Turk/Persian immigrants. He has no evidence for it. We say that he thinks so. That is the best we can do. You can choose to believe what you want to believe. You can't impose those beliefs on Wikipedia.

Please go through all of them, they all dismiss Jonaraja's "descendant of Arjuna" hypothesis as fiction. The "descendant of Arjuna" hypothesis has been only mentioned in trivial sense. Thanks. Barthateslisa (talk) 16:42, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

You also appear to have your own private idea of what NPOV is, which is sadly wrong. The WP:NPOV page says that it means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. All I see from you is "editorial bias", personal opinions on what history is, what mythology is and so on. Please spare us your opinions and stick to sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry but "editorial bias" is something that is not an issue with me, its more visible in your edits. You are focused on a secondary source rather than the primary one. As per the primary source, which you have cited, Mir was originally from Swat, and his family was either Turkic or Persian, who migrated to Swat. The whole "descendant of Arjuna" hypothesis is based on a SECONDARY source, which the primary source mentions as trivia himself dismisses it. As per your edits, secondary source's "descendant of Arjuna" hypothesis is the main origin hypothesis for Mir. Secondly, Arjuna is not identified as a historical figure in mainstream history rather a character in an epic called Mahabharata, even as per Wikipedia, which is our current ground right now. Shah Mir is a historical figure, Arjuna is not. Barthateslisa (talk) 16:36, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
We are not claiming anything. We are using WP:In-text attribution, a concept you do not seem to understand. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
No problem with that, but why being selective with all of it? This is the "editorial bias" I was referring to, why are you only using Jonaraja's claims in the origin para, its quite evident that you have other sources about Mir's origin at your disposal, then why being selective? Mention all of them, stop with this misinformation to suit POV. Mir was descendant of a character in a poem, is Jonaraja's claim, but why mention only one claim, when apparently you have other sources available with you. THIS my friend is "bias". Mentioning a claim about a mythological character and not mentioning other versions and hypothesis leads to misinformation and certainly affects the NPOV of the page. Barthateslisa (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
No, that is the most accepted historical evidence we have. Kautilya3 as such has been rightfully mentioning it. It is not your job to dismiss a reference as an editor. Again, your rebuttles are moot. Kautilya3 provided the best way to move forward. (2600:1001:B010:93FE:9DF5:8A11:14FB:3A56 (talk) 17:57, 23 November 2016 (UTC))
Read what you wrote, "most accepted historical evidence", its clearly your POV. Barthateslisa (talk) 19:38, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Don't twist my words. You are clearly being untrustworthy. History always has a most acceptable version, and others that are more debated. Don't pretend to be asinine. There is a consensus between me and K3, you can't keep your version without any of your fellow editors agreeing to it. Again, 2/3 editors provided evidence and reason to keep the original content. I support moving with Kautilya3. (2600:1001:B010:93FE:9DF5:8A11:14FB:3A56 (talk) 23:07, 23 November 2016 (UTC))

What is more untrustworthy than an IP which keeps on changing, and its not about voting here, if a biased POV is reflected in the content it will be corrected. Of all the available versions for Mir's early life, you can't selectively pick one and add it as primary. No bias and POV on Wikipedia is allowed, be it of many or one. Barthateslisa (talk) 04:42, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break[edit]

@Barthateslisa: I am getting lost with all the noise in this discussion. Do you still have any objections to the original content I contributed? If so, please state them. Please focus on the content, and not the editors. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:23, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

History about Mir's origin is unclear, period. You are selectively adding information as per your bias. The whole, Mir being "descendant of Arjuna" hypothesis by Jonaraja might appeal to you but its dismissed by mainstream historians. You are only adding Jonaraja's claim, despite the fact that there are many other theories about his early life and origin. Either add all of them or don't highlight one dismissed theory. Mir being a descendant of Arjuna, who I repeat again, is a character in an epic not a historical figure, is a fringe theory, you can not put it up as mainstream hypothesis about history. Some fringe also believe that Jesus visited India in his lifetime or that Cleopatra and Julius Caesar were Jesus' parents, do we add those theories in their bios? No. Learn to differentiate between history and fringe theories. You can't add one fringe theory in his early life section and not mention other mainstream hypothesis. If you are really worried about the early life section of Mir's life, add other theories before adding mythological trivia. Barthateslisa (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
I see. So, the fact that is it is in-text attributed to Jonaraja doesn't make any difference to you? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:28, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
A fringe theory can be attributed to anybody, to mislead Wikipedia users, if you want an informative early life section, then add all available theories about Mir's origin. Don't push your POV. Barthateslisa (talk) 13:06, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Are you also saying that you will continue to oppose and delete the reliably sourced content? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:30, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Are you saying you will continue to add selective content as per your bias and POV to mislead the Wikipedia readers? Barthateslisa (talk) 13:06, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Which part of "reliably sourced content" you don't understand? (2600:1001:B027:D14:6505:680A:4F26:BB32 (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2016 (UTC))

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Barthateslisa Please demonstrate your claim that this is a fringe theory. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

A fringe theory is a hypothesis which is off the mainstream, in this case, saying Shah Mir, who is a well recorded historical figure, was a descendant of Arjuna, a character in an epic, is a fringe theory, not a mainstream theory. Shah Mir's origin is uncertain, it has many theories, for example as per your favourite source and author here, he was of Turco-Persian stock from Swat. That is a mainstream theory, as it doesnt involve mythological characters. Every citation you provided for Jonaraja's theory, has ridiculed and dismissed his claims. You on the other hand have been putting up that claim selectively, without dismissing it. Barthateslisa (talk) 13:30, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I wrote It is likely to be concocted history, which is dismissing it. If you want different wording, please suggest it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:38, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I am also not sure that there is a "mainstream" theory. How do you decide what is "mainstream" here? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:39, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Arjuna as a historical figure is not mainstream hypothesis. If you believe otherwise, the onus is on you to to prove it not the other side. Barthateslisa (talk) 14:05, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I see that you are merely repeating the same old arguments without addressing any of my points. I think we have reached the end of the road here. I will take to WP:DRN. Please continue the discussion there. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:38, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Origins[edit]

There is continuing battling about the origins of Shah Mir [2]. As far as I can see, people are merely POV-pushing. There are two sources: Jonaraja and the unnamed Persian chronicles. Most reliable sources accept Jonaraja. He was after all the court historian of one of his descendants. What we have here in the article is perfect NPOV, as perfect as it can be. Anybody contesting it should express their views here instead of edit-warring. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

After some more investigation, I find that a large majority of modern scholars side with the Swati origin theory. They could all be wrong, for all we know. The only source that critically checked all the sources, N. K. Zutshi, sides with the Panjgabbar theory. I don't think this is a debate we can settle here. I have updated the content as per WP:NPOV. I request all the editors to stop edit-warring. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:14, 26 December 2016 (UTC)