Talk:Shkodër/Archive 1

Archive 1

1913

In the article "Montenegro" they say that in 1913, the city was liberated from Turkish power. Is that true? Andres 17:22, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think the Turks left (or were forced to leave) at that time and the Montenegrins occupied it briefly (a month or two). Dori 17:38, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)

What about the 10 000 men they lost fighting against Esad-Pasha's troopa (as states the article "History of Montenegro")?. Does it mean that they lost them fighting against the inhabitants of the city (as this article states)? And were Esad-Pasha's troops Turkish troops or troops of the local inhabitants? Was Esad-Pasha Albanian? Were they forced to leave by the decision of the Great Powers? Andres

I don't know about the 10,000 men. You might want to ask at the History of Montenegro talk page. According to Essad Pasha: "Born in Tirana, Albania, he was a supporter of the Young Turks, serving as deputy for Albania in the Ottoman parliament. During the 1913 Balkan War, he was commander of the Ottoman forces at Shkodër, until he was forced to surrender to Montenegro in 1913." I don't really know if he commanded only Turks or also Albanians. I might research this if you want. I believe the Montenegrins might have been forced to leave by the Great Powers, but again I am not sure. Dori 15:19, Nov 23, 2003 (UTC)

Thank you. If it is interestting to yourself, then please do some research. Anyway, I'll try do it later. And anyway, I think in this article that episode should be elucidated in far more detail (maybe even a special article is needed), or else it remains quite unclear. It is especially hard to understand because of the disputes around it. Andres 17:51, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Alternative names

Right now alternative names are listed in the infobox, but it does not say in what language each name is used. This older version does include such information. Does anyone mind if I add "(Albanian: Shkodër or Shkodra, Latin Scutari, German Skutari, Serbian Skadar)" to the intro? Olessi 21:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I have added the language links into the infobox. Olessi 22:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The Turkish name "İskenderiyesi" presumably derives from Iskander (Alexander). "İskenderiye" is the Turkish name of Alexandria. Might be worth a mention, since this etymology is apparently distinct from the others. - Jmabel | Talk 01:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I found: Shkodër/Shkodra (Albanian) - Scutari (Italian) - Skutari (German) - Skadar (Montenegrin) - Scodra (Latin) - İşkodra (Turkish) - Skoutari (Greek). Also the subject may not always be the town:

• Shkodër, Albania
• Shkodër District
• Shkodër County
• Shkodër Lake
• Shkodër Province, Ottoman Empire
• Shkodër (sandjak)
• Shkodër (pashaluk)

LocodeMaster (talk) 15:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Dubious edit

Looks to me like the section on etymology has now been greatly changed, perhaps simply mangled, given the lack of citation. I have no relevant expertise, but this edit looks very dubious to me. Would someone who konws the topic better please weigh in? - Jmabel | Talk 00:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For the etymology

Sorry but the etymology of the word given by some Serbs here does not make sense. Shkoder was a city for over 600 years by the time Constantine the Great came around and was never listed as a Latin settlement in the region but rather as a native original settlement preceeding Roman conquest. It was listed by that name far before Roman rule so it would be difficult to make the name derive from the latin shield of the Scutum, which was adopted by the Romans far before the conquest of Illyria and derived from Celts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.237.25.134 (talk • contribs) 25 April 2006.

Research I came across suggest that the name is somehow related to Roman dubbing of the whole south-eastern Adriatic coast Ilyrian culture, (hence: Skutori in Herzegovina). Whatever did "shield-barers" mean to Romans it's very common to the area, as well as some other interesting common etymology (Grude). It's sane to assume that it was proto-Ilyrian culture encompassing Herzegovina, Montenegro and northern Albania, probably distinct from the Albanoi culure in southern Albania. The link is broken due to Romanisation, and then subsequent Slavicisation of that culture in later period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.108.155 (talk) 11:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted

...Tonycdp's edits. I have previously rv the edits which partially broke the article and brought-in inconsistencies, but Tonycdp rv back to that version; thus, I am rv again. He also conducted vandalism as per WP:V. --PaxEquilibrium 22:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Tonycdp repeated... --PaxEquilibrium 09:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Why are you insisting on starting a RV war. Montenigrin language exists [1]. Those people have had more to do with the city than Serbs. Tonycdp 10:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Please just look at your edit before you enforce it. I didn't start an edit war, but you did; enforcing an annon's broken version. The Serbian language is official in Montenegro and the majority speak it. The Montenegrin language is a minority language. Should we add then "Croatian language"? It's also a minority language in Montenegro. Also, before you claim who had more relations to what, read the history first. That version also added an unnecessary spacing at the beginning, removed the link to the Hungarian wikipedia and rm the Serbian language from the intro. Also, that version contains a rather ridiculous POV on a so-called Albanian family "Balsha". The Dukagjins never held control over Skadar, either. Please do not enforce this broken version. Thank you. --PaxEquilibrium 10:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok I have added Croatian too, well Serbo-Croatian. The history section seems seriously flawed, and I will do some research to establsh the history of the city. You keep removing the bit about Balshas which (by you being a serb historian) sets the alarm bells ringing immediately. If you strongly disagree put a {{Fact}} tag until someone appears with the counter argument instead of forcing your highly politicised version of Balkan History.Tonycdp 21:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I was joking! There is no necessity to put Croatian (just as no to put Serbo-Croatian - or Montenegrin). All this is creating an image that you simply don't like the Serbian language. I have also noticed, while observing your edits, that you again removed the Serbian language from the intro and yet again (although I warned you repeatedly) added the little spacing error at the beginning (the names part). I looked through the history, and I noticed that you appeared when I rv the annon's bad edits - so you must've followed me here and rv not because of the article, but because I reverted it, even called removal of errorous and bad faith editing - POV. You were also removing the Hungarian wikilink - which further prooves that you only didn't like the user who made the rv, and not the edit (for you would've most certainly read to what you reverted, which you obviously didn't). I also compared the time of your revert and the time of your post here - and the revert predecesses it. I looked at the talk page - and it was empty. This further questions your good will here.

Actually, I just saw your edits elswhere: incivility here; then removal of personal attack warnings here and here. I noted that you got involved in an Arbitration, and even got banned from Kosovo-related articles by the ArbCom. Then you came as an annon calling himself "Steven" and here calling yourself "Coca Cola" to bratantly support your political views on Kosovo. You made personal attacks here, here, here and here in Spanish, hoping possibly that we won't be able to read. I just noticed that you are that annon which added these weird edits and said in the summary that Serbs have nothing to do with Shkoder in any way - did you even read the History section? It was a centre of Serbian culture for almost 1,000 and spiritually continued to be such (as can be seen how Montenegro and Serbia wanted to seize it in the Balkan turmoil).

And what do you mean by "me as a serb historian"...? --PaxEquilibrium 10:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You're from Great Britain, huh? :) Your country did some terrible things too - have you thought a way to punish it (seccession of North Ireland)? --PaxEquilibrium 10:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Dodona

Someone revert this guys changes[2].Megistias (talk) 08:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone revert this,please Megistias (talk) 11:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Duklja = Serbia ??

Quote: "Byzantine Emperor Heraclius gave the Serbs the city of Shkodër and the surrounding territories of during the first half of the 7th century. They soon formed the Principality of Duklja there" Duklja was not made by Serbs whats the deal with this? Duklja is ancient Montenegro and it is older then Raska(Serbia today).

Also, if I recall right didn't Montenegrins build city of Skadar, or rebuild it at least... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.133.4.197 (talk) 14:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Nothing is known of Duklja before the 10-11 centuries. Either way, the Shkodrans have continued to live there through whatever conquests have gone through it. The Shkodrans have adhered to the Roman rite of Christianity since at least the 4th century with influences from the Byzantine Empire and other forces in the region. The Shkodran Marlin Barleti recounts the fall of Shkoder to the Turks in 1478, 10 years after the death of Gjergj Kastrioti, with the Treaty of Constantinople. It was the Shkodrans who fought the Turks, and it was Shkodrans during the early 20th century that pushed for the independence of Albania, despite the sloth and reluctance of much of the Muslim population. As for adjacent Montenegrins, most of them are Catholic Albanians, and much of the rest converted Albanians. The majority of the population in the bordering city of Ulcinj, for example, are Albanian. Just because the Turks conquered a more vulnerable and small ethnicity and converted much of the population, does not mean you can claim our history. It is Albanian people that lived there, fought there, and that live beyond many of the borders, and speak the Albanian language, which has great resemblances with Dalmatian, the language of the Northern Illyrians before the Slavs came. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.11.125 (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

The level of ignorance and accompanying Serb propaganda is reaching tremendous levels in all Albanian-related articles. Now Shkodra is the "center of Serbian culture for 1000 years". Hell if you let the Serbs have their way, even Washington DC will become the center of Serbian culture, and the Serbian Jerusalem. I strongly urge these self-proclaimed editors like "Paxwhatever" to read some real history, and not just the Milosevic/Cosic published crap. Stupid fucking idiot.

Name

Why is the serbian version of the city's name necessary?Amenifus (talk) 09:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy (talk) 22:47, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

This page has been moved back and forth between "Shkodër" and "Shkodër, Albania" a few times lately. In my opinion, Shkodër primarily refers to the city in northern Albania. All other meanings (district, county, lake, Ottoman province) are derived from the city. The other meanings are already disambiguated by their generic (lake, county, district, province), and rarely used without that generic (except perhaps in lists of counties, districts, where it is clear that the county, district etc, is meant). Therefore, I propose to move "Shkodër, Albania" back to "Shkodër", and "Shkodër" to "Shkodër (disambiguation)". Markussep ^Talk 09:32, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support both moves. The disambiguation of Shkodër, Albania is unsatisfactory, as several other entities by that name are also in Albania. The existing article name weakly but incorrectly implies that the others are somewhere else. The name does appear to be originally that of the city, but more important, because of this long usage this is still likely to be the primary usage in English. Andrewa (talk) 21:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree fully with the above. Knepflerle (talk) 01:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support both moves. Agree with all the above. "Shkodër" as a single-word article title could only reasonably refer to the city in Albania. Once moved, a hatnote pointing to the dab page should be added here. Station1 (talk) 03:19, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
• Support both moves per nom. --Born2cycle (talk) 07:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
• Support as it does appear that the city is the primary meaning. Plus, the usage of ", Albania" does not really distinguish between other entities as they are all in Albania. --Polaron | Talk 23:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

9.Montenegro was compelled to leave the city to the new country of Albania in May 1913, in accordance with the London Conference of Ambassadors, but only after committing there one of the most heavy massacres on the local Albanian civilians (around 6,000 victims). I never heard about this massacre before.Can anyone give me more details about this?As far as I know king Nicholas ordered that there must not be killings of the civilians. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.94.109.174 (talk) 02:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Massacres

Montenegro was compelled to leave the city to the new country of Albania in May 1913, in accordance with the London Conference of Ambassadors, but only after committing there one of the most heavy massacres on the local Albanian civilians (around 6,000 victims). I never heard of this massacre before.Can anyone tell me more about it?As I recall King Nicholas strictly orderd that there must not be killings of the civilians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.94.109.174 (talk) 02:20, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Pictures of mosques and churches

There are also churches in Shkodra. Why not have a picture of a church as well, especially because it is one of the few cities in Albania that is predominantly Catholic. Moreover, the inclusion of the mosque is completely unnecessary to the importance of the city. On the other hand, Shkodra has what was considered for a long time the biggest church in the Balkan Peninsula. Why not include that? It has some significance at least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.241.85 (talk) 15:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the picture of the mosque is irrelevant (it's a dominant building in the city centre), but you're welcome to add a picture of a church. I couldn't find one in commons, if I have time I will check my holiday pictures. I found one of the interior of the catholic cathedral in another article, I'll add it. Markussep ^Talk 10:45, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality

The neutrality of this article is questionable, in my opinion. Whoever wrote most of it either took most of it out of a tour guide, or purposely added portions which mention the city is a way that sounds like a tour guide. They talk about "the city itself being a fantastic background for photos", which does not sound like an encyclopedic article. Rearre11 (talk) 21:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

flooding

I have been researching the recent flooding in Bahçallëk, http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/h4ck3rm1k3/diary/9264 Floods have devastated a region of about 10,000 hectares. More than 2,400 homes were flooded. http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=01&dd=10&nav_id=64368 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdupont (talk • contribs) 08:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

STOP THE DELETIONS

Why were the pictures of the Cathedral of Shkodra, Zoja e Shkodres and Migjeni deleted and instead we have more pictures of Mosques. The only city in Albania that is predominantly Catholic and cultured is being overrun by fanatics who want to erase our identity and misrepresent what was once a great city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.233.105 (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Apparently the pictures were deleted at Commons because they violated copyright. If you happen to be near Shkodër, there's a simple solution: take pictures yourself and upload them to commons. See this link for an instruction. Markussep ^Talk 18:15, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Lord Paget

I found no mention of Lord Paget and his villa and clock tower, which is still in the town centre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChilternGiant (talk • contribs) 23:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Cloister of the Franciscan order

There are some claims, both on Wikipedia and off, that during Hoxha's rule a cloister of the Franciscan order in Shkodër was burned to ground, resulting in the deaths of four monks. This isn't mentioned in the article. Is it true? Thanks, A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 19:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Found a reliable source (the Library of Congress) that confirms the claim, (ref: "Hoxha's Antireligious Campaign". Washington, D.C.: Library of Congress. 1992. LCCN 93042885. Archived from the original on 22 June 2012. Retrieved 22 June 2012. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)) so per WP:V this could theoretically be added to the article. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 12:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Shkodër, Shkoder or Shkodra?

Either Siege of Shkoder or Shkodër but not all please! Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 11:28, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Etymology

The passage reads (after my correction of the internal link and and the addition of "the" before the "Illyrians"):
"The name on coins minted in Shkodra (during the rule of Gentius, last King of the Illyrians) have the legend ScodrinΩn.[2] The name stems from Illyrian as Sco Drinon, in modern Albanian language (Shko Drin) (where the Drin goes)."
Ok this seems like a very nice example of let's say, folk false etymology.Nevermind that there is no reference, something to verify this, let's also forget the huge -inter alia- temporal leap.
I'm certainly not an expert but the legend obviously or most probably, most likely means "of the Scodrians", "of the Scodrian people"
(written in Greek;alphabet and language;genitive case,plural of Skodrinos).
Please correct this or verify your claims.
Otherwise I will do it myself.
I'm not doing it now wanting feedback and knowing that some people can be very touchy on these issues, I'm being polite, respectful and open.
P.S.There is also the strange "ScodrinΩn" form put inside a lang-grc template that is neither fully in the Greek nor Latin alphabet, nor in upper case nor lower case nor the form the legend of the coins as far as I can tell depict.I'll also leave it unchanged for the present... Thanatos|talk 01:58, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanatos666, that's a very clever point. Folk etymologies should remain as such, of course with a carefully chosen reference (if there exist any else they should vanish). The 'skodrinon' should be presented in its form in ancient currency, whether Greek or Latin.Alexikoua (talk) 13:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

That section was indeed pretty horrible. I found some interesting linguistic discussion and have tried to fix up the section accordingly. Turns out there's been some pretty substantial amount of debate on the linguistic history. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the accent and I can't find some source (on the net or elsewhere) that has the words in polytonic Greek.

Wilkes' The Illyrians at cited pages or elsewhere (p.72) has either SKODRI-NON or Skodrina (most likely f.nom.sing. as per context). Putting in this case the accent(circumflex in this case) on the ultima as the passage reads now would mean that it would also be there in nominative, id est Σκοδρινός; that's not impossible but neither is certain.Unless there is some source somewhere out there to cite,I propose to use instead an uppercase form, as on the coin.Which brings me to the alphabet itself.Does anyone have a source on or know for sure which variant of the alphabet is used?Looking at the pictures I can't tell for suere whether it's an initial S or C;looks prima facie like a C but then there is this slight bottom right curve that makes it more of a S (clear picture here)...

P.S.Or could it be some guy named Σκορδίνων that we haven't heard of?? :) :p

P.P.S.Btw I can't decide which etymology was funnier (before correction);

this one or the one at Athinganoi (it used to read : "literally to touch(athing) do not(anoi)")?!?!?

Both have a merit of their own in their own way!! :D Thanatos|talk 15:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Not quite sure I get your concern. Since it's pretty obvious that "ΣΚΟΔΡΙΝΩΝ" is a genitive plural of the demonym, based on the placename Σκόδρα, isn't the accentuation just a logical and necessary consequence of normal Greek derivational morphology? I mean, could the adjective of "Σκόδρα" be anything other, grammatically speaking, than "σκοδρινός, -ή, -όν"? In such cases, supplying the regularized classical accentuation for words that are originally attested only in unaccented majuscules seems pretty normal epigraphic practice to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:44, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Not all are relevant, yet....Thanatos|talk 16:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Serbian name

If there is a significant Serbian minority living in Shkodër, how come it is not even mentioned in the article. (According to the last census, there are 66 people with Serbo-Croatian as their mother tongue in Albania.) The historic argument is not valid for putting the Serbian name in the lede. If that was the case, we would have to put in Turkish (Ottoman) names for hundreds of places in the Balkans, including Shkodër. The Ottomans also controlled the city for hundreds of years. I suggest to work the Serbian name into the Etymology section. Regards! --T*U (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Removal of non-Albanian people

Fahrettin Altay and Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani have again (how many times now?) been deleted from the list of "Notable people". The edit summary claims about Altay that "he did't contribute anything to Albania and that is the purpose of this page". That is nonsense. The purpose of the page is to give encyclopedic information about Shkodër, and the purpose of the "Notable people" section is – obviously – to present notable people: "... some of the most notable personalities born or long time residents in Shkodër." Being notable has nothing to do with contributing to Albania. Both of them are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles. A case could probably be made for removing the whole list as original research, but selectively removing non-Albanians is not acceptable. --T*U (talk) 08:00, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Sources

Predictably, Fine (1994) doesn't mention anything in page 193 about any settlement in this region in relation to De Administrando Imperio.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)