Talk:Solar System/Archive 10

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Archive 10

marss

Earth and Mars, actual size differential. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

mars is one of the hottest planet and is bigger than eart 42.201.194.138 (talk) 14:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

It actually isn't, it's very small compared to Earth and is not very hot. The air is much thinner though. A few tips, uppercase proper names (Mars), check your spelling, and prove to your teacher that Wikipedia isn't such a bad place after all (extra credit?). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:24, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

thank you so much for the information! and ill surely have a wise talk with my so called TEACHER 42.201.194.138 (talk) 14:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Most teachers are cool (as is Mars, it's a pretty cold planet), just imagine the things they have to put up with! One of the toughest but most rewarding jobs on Earth (about the same size as Venus). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:38, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

geeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

soo thiss is so random i didnt knew u could add text on this my teacher told me not to believe wiki pedia becuz the source can be fake as u can edit so ommgggggggggggggg 42.201.194.138 (talk) 14:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you can edit anywhere on Wikipedia you want (try it by adding something worthwhile and it may even stay) but that does not mean those edits get to stick around. I found this one a minute after you posted it, and could erase it right now but decided to answer to give you an education (maybe unlike your teacher is trying to do). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Although, to be clear, you can't actually edit this article because it's been semi-protected. Make an account, do some constructive editing for a few days, and then you can. :) Serendi^podous 14:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Good point about the protected pages, thanks. My mistake (but nothing compared to the teacher's mistake not to ever trust Wikipedia - trust but verify moves this crowd-sourced knowledge engine). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:23, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

im really sorry

i was gonna delete it right after but i realised i cant

please delete it

im really sorry and i ensure you it wont happen again 42.201.194.138 (talk) 14:23, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I for one won't delete it, it's a good lesson. And your apology is very Wikipedian (click on that for a nice overview of the editors here). You're fine. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:28, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

aish

i hate this teacher

please do me a favor and delete it 42.201.194.138 (talk) 14:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, now you'll giving me a lesson. I don't know if I can delete per Wikipedia guidelines, maybe all of us have to agree. Serendipodous, would you mind if this was deleted? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

i realy appreciate it!

can you tell me how to erase it..? 42.201.194.138 (talk) 14:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Let's see if the other editor agrees. Removing it is a simple cut and paste then press 'publish changes' and it'll be in the history but not in visible space. But don't remove other people's talk page comments unless they agree. Nothing to fret about, it was a good comment, experiment in editing (we call them test edits, lots of people test to see if they actually can edit Wikipedia), and questions. Been fun, actually. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Haumea

After the mini section describing Haumea, the word Haumea is repeated again:

Haumea (43.13 AU average from the Sun) is in an orbit similar to Makemake, except that it is in a temporary 7:12 orbital resonance with Neptune.[165] Like Makemake, it was discovered in 2005.[166] Uniquely among the dwarf planets, Haumea possess a ring system, two known moons named Hiʻiaka and Namaka, and rotates so quickly (once every 3.9 hours) that it is stretched into an ellipsoid. It is part of a collisional family of Kuiper belt objects that share similar orbits, which suggests a giant collision took place on Haumea and ejected its fragments into space billions of years ago.[167] Haumea

Could somebody please fix this? 2601:600:9080:A4B0:CD24:868:4FEA:35DF (talk) 22:18, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I do not see any repetition. Ruslik_Zero 13:44, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Unable to find a source

So, I'm trying to find a source for the solar system's mass in the article. However, I can't find a reliable source to back up the claim that the solar system is 1.0014 solar masses. How can I deal with this? Blue Jay (talk) 00:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The combined mass of Jupiter and Saturn is 413 Earth masses. As per note f, the combined mass of everything else is 37 Earth masses. That means the mass of the Solar planetary system is 440 Earth masses, which is 0.0013212 solar masses. Serendi^podous 10:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Not sure where the extra 26 Earth masses came from. Maybe rounding up? Serendi^podous 16:49, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Hm, very well then. I was just concerned because there is a citation needed tag in the part of the infobox that says the solar system's mass. Blue Jay (talk) 03:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

On another note, I found this source here (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780444527486001516), maybe it could be used for the citation needed tag in the infobox? Blue Jay (talk) 03:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@The great Jay, I believe that the article you linked was written by Tilman Spohn, He seems to be an expert on the subject, so I would say you could use that as a citation. MaximusEditor (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I could use that as a source, but I have to find a way to look at the content so I could get the info from said article and make sure it can back up and fix the citation needed tag. Blue Jay (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be split to two pages, one for a generic Solar System and another for the Sol System?

I find it kind of odd that when we talk about a Solar System, we're directly referring to ours, when there's trillions of solar systems out there, should there not be a distinction between the two terms? Stathisdjs (talk) 16:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article for other solar systems called Planetary system. Continually comes up as a problem since Solar System currently fails to redirect the reader properly via HATNOTE re: WP:HATNOTERULES #3 "Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind.". Per [1] [2][3][4][5] that is more than reasonable possibility (and actually a secondary definition) pointing to a need for a need for a HATNOTE along the lines of This article is about the Sun and the objects orbiting it. For objects in or out of orbit around a star or star system in general, see planetary system. For other uses, see Solar System (disambiguation). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:02, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

The Solar System is the Sun and its planetary system. "Planetary system" comprises just the stuff orbiting the star. As of now there is no official generic term for "Solar System." But there should be. Serendi^podous 23:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

We have been through this a pair of months ago. See #Split into articles "The solar system" and "Solar system" Cambalachero (talk) 02:05, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

And we went through this before that too. Serendi^podous 09:34, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I came to the talk page to make the same point. I think we should maybe add the label "Sol" for our solar system as I se people use it to reference our solar system. MaximusEditor (talk) 18:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I think that would be reasonable.★Trekker (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The Solar System is the Sol System. Serendi^podous 16:46, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

JUNO

3 Juno, commonly known simply has Juno it's one of the most prominent asteroids of the asteroid belt, (the third one to be discovered in fact) before Vesta and after Paras, and has had relative significance over history, being described in his earliest discoveries has a planet fact in the early 19th century, and I think we should include a brief description and mention of Juno within the section about the Asteroid belt. 83.33.138.138 (talk) 16:09, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Lead: Sun and its planetary system?

Shouldn't the lead's definition begin with including an explicit reference and link to the term "planetary system"? Yet, I didn't found a actual/sufficient clarification anywhere. Strangely enough, there already is a respective, but invisible XML-style comment in the article's source code (right at the first sentence), however.

It seems to me, this is a crucial information for the reader, too. (Of course, satisfactorily integrated.) David Schopenhauer (talk) 09:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Apparently, this shortage was also identified and meanwhile corrected by @Nsae Comp, on 12 Oct 2023. Thanks! David Schopenhauer (talk) 08:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Is the Solar System British property?

Of course not. An international treaty I forgot the name of prohibits any country from owning space. Mars uses British even though American space programs are primarily focused on manned exploration of Mars, something no other countries have a focus on. In conclusion, WHAT THE HAY? Will accept American and maybe Oxford. IPs are people too (talk) 02:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

What? That's very unclear. HiLo48 (talk) 04:43, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Easily answered. Yes, the Solar System is British property. Assuring that the Sun never sets on the empire. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:28, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you randy? Gay Rakshit (talk) 06:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Britain isn't the largest country in the world, the world usually is earth Gay Rakshit (talk) 06:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

I think he's upset that we're using Commonwealth spelling. Serendi^podous 12:31, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

The banner at the top of this talk page has been changed to say this article uses American english.Fdfexoex (talk) 12:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

When? HiLo48 (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Yesterday. Fdfexoex (talk) 00:14, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

A while back the term galactic centre was replaced with galactic center. Fdfexoex (talk) 12:56, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I believe this article used to be written in British English, and MOS:RETAIN applies. It should be converted back unless there was consensus for the change. Praemonitus (talk) 13:53, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Certainly no consensus for change, should be changed back. Brunton (talk) 15:13, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

November 2001 is the "first post-stub revision that introduced an identifiable variety", center.

In 2007 an IP (mad about Pluto?) converted it to British English

1000 difs ago show mixed usage center/centre.

Its been kicked around around for about a year on the page and "discussion does not resolve the issue" so we should go with "first post-stub revision" per MOS:RETAIN. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for the investigation. Praemonitus (talk) 16:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

What would happen if our galaxy and a different galaxy collide?

Would a new galaxy become one? 105.214.66.196 (talk) 08:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Andromeda-Milky Way collision. Serendi^podous 09:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The answer is: it depends. The Milky Way has already absorbed multiple galaxies in the past. Have a look at the interacting galaxy and list of stellar streams articles. Praemonitus (talk) 06:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

What is all this scifi stuff in the name section?

Because of one citation from 1986, the Solar System is sometimes called the Sol System? And where are all the citations saying that scifi concepts like Sol III are acceptable usage for planets? Or for that matter that the terms we use for exoplanets are valid usage for our system? Serendi^podous 16:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. That seems pretty obtuse and is not in common usage. Praemonitus (talk) 17:53, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I dont understand the buzz, the idea of the chapter was to clarify that the proper use is "Solar System", and that is the case afterall since the IAU uses "Solar System".

I was merely giving the reader an overview which other terms they might come across and gave some examples. Yes, I realize that I couldnt provide any paper which discusses the history of nameing the Solar System (in science and fiction), but that was not what I attempted. Therefore I realize that my examples of incorrect uses, which were to invite discussion on how to write about it or provide better sources, might be taken out, but I dont understand why the whole chapter is scraped.

So I would argue to still have a typical etymology chapter, because I realy dont see a problem in that and maybe it allows us to give the reader an idea of what the correct term is, while stating that there is no name as such for the Solar System, and which terms are not.

Here the original text:

Name

"Solar System" is the name of the Sun and the astronomical objects gravitationally bound to it, and is not a general term for other such systems of other stars.

The name of the Solar System is derived from the Sun's Latin name Sol, and is because of that sometimes also called Sol System. Accordingly the Solar System's planets can be refered to by being numbered in combination with "Sol" using small letters (e.g. Sol c for Earth), as used for exoplanets, or Roman numerals (e.g. Sol I for Mercury). In fiction the Solar System is also sometimes called Terran System, refering to the Latin name for Earth Terra, though this use is ambiguouse since it is particularly used for the Earth-Moon satellite system.

The Solar System as a system of a star and its gravitationally bound objects does not have a standardized concept, being sometimes called a star system, stellar system or planetary system, though the first two terms refer particularly to systems of multiple stars and the latter to systems of planets. Therefore the Solar System has a planetary system, but comprises more than that, including the Sun and all other astronomical objects bound to the Sun.

Nsae Comp (talk) 09:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

perhaps the more incidental material could go on planetary system instead? I also think "Sol System" is very undue. Remsense留 09:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

it allows us to give the reader an idea of what the correct term is, Wikipedia is not a usage guide, and we are neither lexicologist or lexicographers. Oddly, no dictionarys are cited making this look cherry picked to support a point. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not trying to force any point or citation. I saw my proposed text and sources as a mere invitation to have a chapter that explains why Solar System means what it means. Not in a lexicological way, but to illustrate the difference to for example star system.

As I said I dont understand why it is such a buzz to have a short etymology/name chapter, its not like something uncommon to have, and I didnt claim that the content that I introduced needs to stay. Again, I just tried to give a chapter, which in more detail clarifies what Solar System means and get rid of any misconceptions of its scope. Nsae Comp (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I think the primary criticism is that it's WP:UNDUE, and its presence implies that the rare terminology is more widely used than it is. Remsense留 01:02, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I get that. So how about scraping that "undue" stuff then and have what was to be clarified in that chapter in my opinion:

Concept

"Solar System" is the name of the gravitationally bound system of the Sun and the objects that orbit it. As such it is not a general term for any gravitational system of other stars and objects bound to it. Sometimes called a star system, stellar system or planetary system, the first two terms refer particularly to systems of multiple stars and the latter to planets and the system they form. Therefore the Solar System has a planetary system, but comprises more than that, including the Sun and all other astronomical objects bound to the Sun.

The word solar means "pertaining to the Sun", which is derived from the Latin word sol, meaning Sun.

Nsae Comp (talk) 09:31, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I would omit the etymology at the end (as someone who loves etymology), but other than that it seems fine to me. Remsense留 09:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

As such it is not a general term for any gravitational system of other stars and objects bound to it. We can not claim there is a specific nomenclature and reference it to an anonymous source (uncited/unsigned National Geographic article), especially when its contradicted per WP:YESPOV. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:38, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok, well then lets leave that sentence out, its stating the inherent anyway, since it is a name and not a category, but fine with me if we have to leave that conclusion out of the IAU definiton to the reader. Nsae Comp (talk) 18:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

The first sentence simply repeats the lead definition. The third sentence is WP:SYNTH/Lexicology, combining multiple observations of word usage instead of citing a source that makes that overall statement. Forth sentence is a conclusion based on the first three sentences. Once we clean that up there isn't much left. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Since I can not find any source that expicitly discusses/name the cetogory that the Solar System is, I have to step back and leave it as so often to people out there to spell it out first. See you around everyone, and thanks for the input. Nsae Comp (talk) 14:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Note: there is a term for other such systems but it is circular in the case of the Solar System since it uses Solar System and calls them "Exosolar System", but also there I could only find the term being used but not defined. Nsae Comp (talk) 14:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• The slang term "Sol" should not be used at all on the page. The correct wording is 'Solar System' per the title and common usage. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

References

So are Jupiter and Saturn slightly more than 90 percent the planetary system mass, or slightly less?

Also, where is the citation saying that the Sun, which outmasses 95 percent of the stars in the galaxy, is a "low mass star"? Serendi^podous 17:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that a low-mass star undergoes a core helium flash while on the red-giant branch. Intermediate mass stars can start burning helium directly without undergoing a flash stage. E.g. The most common type is the very low-mass star; i.e. fully convective red dwarfs. Praemonitus (talk) 20:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

That article ignores all stars with a mass lower than 0.8 solar; a somewhat selective definition of "low mass". Within that sample, yes the Sun is low-mass, but not all stars have died in the age of the universe. Serendi^podous 21:27, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I was merely clarifying why some astronomers categorize the Sun and similar stars as "low mass". It has nothing to do with the initial mass function. This topic is covered in the star article, so perhaps you can find a suitable citation there. Praemonitus (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Apparently the distinction is between "low mass stars" and "very low mass stars". I still think this is confusing to the layman. Would a note be apropos? Serendi^podous 20:53, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure, a clarifying note would make sense. Praemonitus (talk) 15:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Before such a change is made, I'll comment that in physics, "low" and "high" are always very context-dependent qualifiers. E.g., "high temperature" can mean liquid-nitrogen temperatures (in context of superconductors), and "low mass" can mean more than solar mass when referring to black holes. So a phrase "low mass star" is not itself meaningful outside of the context of which stars are being referred to. The sun is "low mass" when referring to the median mass (stars can range from 0.07 to over 100 solar masses), but "high mass" when referring to the average of all stars. There is no absolute meaning to "low mass" or "very low mass" qualifiers without specifying which population of stars and what form of comparison. Tarl N. (discuss) 20:08, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Comet West

The article says The furthest known objects, such as Comet West, have aphelia around 70,000 AU from the Sun. with reference to BBC. I can't find this number, and the article for Comet West says The comet has been more than 50 AU (7.5 billion km) from the Sun since 2003. and gives its aphelion in the infobox as 1,500 au (unsourced). Any thoughts? Artem.G (talk) 19:13, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

It was possibly based on outdated information. There are some other candidates on list of Solar System objects by greatest aphelion. Praemonitus (talk) 05:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)