Talk:South Shetland Islands

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This says the spanish wiki:

"El 25 de agosto de 1818 el gobierno argentino (o de las Provincias Unidas del Río de La Plata) otorgó las primeras concesiones para la caza de focas y pingüinos en territorios correspondientes al continente antártico a Juan Pedro de Aguirre, quien operaba con el navío Espíritu Santo haciendo base en la isla Decepción (la mayor de las llamadas luego Shetland del Sur por los ingleses."

Translated:

On 25th august 1818 the argentine government , or the South united province's, gave the first penguin and seal hunting permissions to Juan Pedro de Aguirre, who operated with the ship "holy Spirit" with base in Desception Island, the biggest of the now called "sout shetland islands" by the english."

This article says that they were discoverd in 1819, but i think the spanish wiki is right.

here are 2 .gov links (they are probably right)
DNA Dirección Nacional del Antarctico (National Antarctic Direction) = spanish
The same in english Argentino 18:14, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for re–writting the article. – Argentino 12:32, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

The Spanish Wiki is not a source. The original Argentine government source given above says in Spanish and English precisely the following:

El petitorio que el comerciante Juan Pedro Aguirre presenta al Consulado de Buenos Aires el 18 de febrero de 1818, solicitando la autorización para la instalación de un establecimiento para pesca de lobos en alguna de las islas existentes a la altura del Polo Sur, confirma el conocimiento de tierras antárticas.

Uno entre otros varios foqueros, el "Spiritu Santo", fue seguido por el brig norteamericano "Hercilia" hasta la isla Decepción.'

The request submitted by the trader Juan Pedro Aguirre to the Consulate of Buenos Aires on February 18, 1818, asking for authorization for installing an establishment for fishing seals on some of the existing islands as far up as South Pole, confirms the acknowledge of Antarctic lands.

One of the various seal-hunting vessels, the "Spiritu Santo", was followed by the American brig "Hercilia" up to Deception island.

The source says that:

(1) There was a request by Juan Pedro Aguirre, asking for authorization to seal on "islands as far up as South Pole";

(2) One sealing vessel (Spiritu Santo) was followed by another sealing vessel (Hersilia).

The quoted Argentine source says that Aguirre asked permission, not that he actually undertook any operations.

The quoted Argentine source does not say that the Spiritu Santo has anything to do with Juan Pedro Aguirre, it just says that that ship was "one of the various seal-hunting vessels".

Fortunately, the visits of Hersilia are well documented. The first visit of that ship to the South Shetlands took place in the austral summer of 1819/20, which fixes beyond doubt the timing of the event mentioned by the Argentine government source as not before 1819.

Namely, the detailed information on the events according to documented sources (Gurney's book quoted in the article) is that the American brig Hersilia commanded by Captain James Sheffield (with second mate Nathaniel Palmer) joined the brig Espirito Santo (chartered by English merchants in Buenos Aires, commanded by Captain Joseph Herring, and with English crew) while the latter was anchored at Rugged Island in the bay named today "Hersilia Cove". The Espirito Santo crew landed on Rugged Island on 25 December 1819, and they stayed thirty-three days on the island taking seals; the Hersilia arrived on 23 January 1820 and left the South Shetlands sixteen days later.

Therefore, I am removing -- unless and until a source is provided -- the unsubstantited text about Aguirre asking to hunt "in this archipelago" (there are many islands groups and "islands as far up as South Pole", the source does not specify any particular islands), and the unsubstantiated text about Aguirre leaving "on board of the "Spiritu Santo" and visiting Deception.

I am including instead the information from the quoted Argentine source, namely that in 1818 Juan Pedro Aguirre requested permission from the Argentine government to hunt seals on "islands near the South Pole"; details of the voyage of the Buenos Aires brig Espirito Santo is already included in the article. Apcbg 05:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You are leaving out an important part of the original text."El petitorio [...] confirma el conocimiento de tierras antárticas.". What's more, from the text it is clear that Aguirre had ships working in the area, among them the Espirito Santo. But don't take my word, there's a source of the Argentine army claiming that when the Argentine boat "San Juan Nepomuceno" met in 1819 the ship from Buenos Aires Spiritu Santo near at the Shetlands, this had been followed by the "Hersilia", convinsed the people on the Spiritu Santo know of a hunting place. Thus, the people from the Spiritu Santo had previous knowledge of the location of the islands [for they have already been there]. Anyhow, the Spiritu Santo arrived to the Shetlands no later than 1819. Mariano(t/c) 08:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The quote from Aguirre's petition only speaks of “islands as far up as South Pole”; it is an interpretation to say that this “confirms the acknowledge of Antarctic lands”.

Even that vague interpretation specifies no particular territories — "Antarctic lands" does not equal "South Shetland Islands".

Also, the text says nothing about any ships of Aguirre's in any particular areas.

Also, the text does not say that Aguirre had any relation to the Espirito Santo.

The Argentine military source that you now mention says literally the following:

1819 Partió de Buenos Aires la polacra de matrícula argentina "San Juan Nepomuceno", dedicada a la cacería de focas y lobos, al mando del Capitán Carlos Tidblon, que regresó el 22 de febrero de 1820 con 14.600 cueros de focas. El bergantín estadounidense "Hersilia", según relató su Segundo Oficial Nathaniel B. Palmer, encontró al buque de Buenos Aires "Spíritu Santo" cargando cueros en las Shetland. Este bergantín había sido seguido desde las islas Malvinas, por el "Hersilia", ante la certeza de que se dirigía directamente a un punto ya conocido y apto para la caza de focas.

(1819 Left Buenos Aires the Argentine ship San Juan Nepomuceno, dedicated to sealing, commanded by Captain Carlos Tidblon, and returned on 22 February 1820 with 14,600 fur skins. The US brig Hersilia, according to its Second Officer Nathaniel Palmer, met the Buenos Aires ship Spíritu Santo loading skins in the Shetlands. That brig was followed from the Falklands by Hersilia, with the certainty that that it went directly to a point already known and apt for sealing.)

Of course the Buenos Aires ship Espirito Santo knew of the South Shetlands — the news of their discovery had spread to South America after the two visits to the islands by William Smith in February and in October 1819, and it was that news and Smith's report of abundant seals that prompted the English merchants in Buenos Aires to charter and sent the Espirito Santo to the islands under Captain Joseph Herring. As already quoted, the ship arrived to the South Shetlands in December 1819.

Yes the Hersilia came from the Falklands as the Argentine source says. It is known that the American ship sailed from the Falklands to Staten Island (Isla de los Estados) to take wood and water supplies, and then on 11 January 1820 they left for the South Shetlands to join the Espirito Santo in Hersilia Cove, Rugged Island on 23 January 1820.

By the way, the above Argentine military source does not say that the San Juan Nepomuceno met the Hersilia in 1819, it only says that the San Juan Nepomuceno returned on 22 February 1820.

Also, the Argentine source does not say that the San Juan Nepomuceno met the Hersilia at the South Shetlands or another particular place.

In fact, the Argentine source does not say that the San Juan Nepomuceno met the Hersilia at all. Apcbg 14:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You didn't get what I wrote. When Nepomuceno met the Espirito Santo at these islands, they were informed by the Espiritu Santo about the Hersilia following the Espiritu Santo. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but that is what the text in Spanish says. Mariano(t/c) 14:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: "Nepomuceno met the Espirito Santo at these islands".

Could you please give the Spanish original and your English translation of the text saying that the Nepomuceno met the Espirito Santo at the South Shetland Islands? Apcbg 14:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right, I missread the names. It is not clear from the text, but marked as 1819, the reference to Hersilia meeting the Spíritu Santo at the Shetlands clearly suggest Argentine ships visiting the islands not later than that year. Mariano(t/c) 08:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Let us be precise, and let us use only what the quoted texts say, not expand the texts postfactum. The year 1819 was the year when, as the text says, the Nepomuceno left Buenos Aires. Then the text says that the ship returned in 1820 which is obviously not 1819, i.e. one cannot say that everything mentioned in that text happened in 1819. The text, I repeat, does not say or in any way imply that the Nepomuceno has taken its seal skins on the South Shetlands. The second part of the text is not related to the first (the text itself speaks of no link between the two informations) but reports information obtained from Palmer. The text does not say how this information was transmitted by Palmer, the text does not say or imply that Palmer's information was received by the Nepomuceno. As for the Espirito Santo, yes she visited the South Shetlands in 1819, namely in December (see the article for details of the Espirito Santo voyage), and was the third ship that visited the islands in 1819: (1) the first was the Williams in February (and again in October), (2) the second was the Spanish San Telmo in September, and (3) the third was the Espirito Santo in December 1819. Apcbg 12:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The whole truth

People: lie or say the truth, but don't mix. To hide the truth or report a half of it is as good as lying. —Argentino (talk/cont.) 21:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC) According to an international traty the islands are nobody's

Bulgarian Flag

Why is the Bulgarian flag in the picture if the islands were discovered by the british? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.225.146.106 (talk) 19:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC).