Talk:St Helens R.F.C.

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Supporters[edit]

" Traditional strongholds of support tend to come from the Western half of the town; areas like Blackbrook, Haydock, and Parr."

Apart from the fact this is not true (why would supporters tend to come from parts of the town furthest away from where the stadium was?), none of these places are in the "Western half" of the town. Parr is in the East, Haydock is in the North East, and Blackbrook is roughly somewhere between the two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.190.215 (talk) 12:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, meant to change that months ago, I'll do it now.
Thanks for the heads up,
Ymron (talk) 18:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Official name[edit]

Shouldn't this article be names St Helens RLFC???

They are "officially" RFC, this is how they are listed as a company [1]. On the Saints website they in fact use RLC (no F) though. Grinner 09:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I would have though they should be RLFC as well - I'll look into it Rehnn83 11:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't know why it was left there for so long. The club badge even has it at St Helens Rugby League Club. Another spanner in the works.Londo06 11:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

St Helens Rugby League club is on the badge but the website is RLFC.  CorleoneSerpicoMontana  09:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Why has the page been moved to this longer title instead of 'RLFC'? All the links to this page are now either redirects or will take more typing out now. I don't see the point; you don't see Leeds United Association Football Club and it isn't popularly referred to in that long title either. Leeds use 'A.F.C.' in the article title and the full written out version in the introduction. LunarLander // talk // 14:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I agree with RLFC being expanded either.--Jeff79 (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

So what is preferred? RLC/RLFC/RFC? Can we reach consensus on this and also (I hope) on going back to a shorter title? LunarLander // talk // 02:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It appears to have been founded as RFC (originally only one kind of rugby, i.e. 'union') and changed, maybe as recently as the last few years, to RLFC. It would be good to know the date of this change. It will affect a lot of content as we have always had club names appear in articles as they were at the time being referred to.--Jeff79 (talk) 17:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain that we were founded as FC, but when rugby and football became more and more separate, we became known as RFC. After the schism, I think RFC was retained for a while before RLC was adopted. Now, all news articles and websites refer to the club as RLFC, although as a company they are still RFC, but on the badge we are RLC. As for dates of the changes, your guess is as good as mine.
Ymron (talk) 07:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Now on the badge, on the website, on the facade of Langtree Park it is St. Helens R.F.C., and company's official name seems to be St Helens Rugby Football Club Limited ([2], Company No. 00331905). Now what? Arvedui89 (talk) 11:13, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
There's a difference between the limited company and the playing team / club name. As for the name otherwise, we should be RFC it seems as everything on the website (including copyright claims) have all been shifted over to that. Koncorde (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Nation identifiers[edit]

Shouldn't Keiron Cunningham have the Welsh flag rather than the English flag next to his name? Although born in England, he plays for the Welsh national team. I've looked on a few other sports pages on here & players seem to be classed by country played for rather than country of birth. RC4282

Agreed KC plays for Wales (Sadly :-() - Have Changed --Rehnn83 11:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Lee Gilmour to Scotland Londo06 23:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

County representation[edit]

Would I be correct in saying that players first registered by St Helens would be eligible to play in a representative team for Lancashire (in, say, the Origin Series) and that no such team exists for Merseyside? Yorkshire Phoenix (talkcontribs) 08:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct. The traditional boundaries of Lancashire take in most of Greater Manchester and Merseyside (as well as Barrow and the Furness peninsula) and hence they are 'Lankies' as far as origin goes. Strictly speaking since Blackpool is now no longer part of Lancashire as defined by the government, it is true to say that there are no pro or even semi-pro teams in Lancashire at all.GordyB 14:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

2008 players[edit]

Have Dean McGilvray and Dave Hull been given squad numbers for 2008? Their names do not appear on the squad list on the official Saints website. In Wikipedia only factual information should normally be presented. Both these players are listed in the Reserve Team on the official website. Shouldn't these two names therefore be removed from the 2008 first team squad listing until such time that their squad number is confirmed by the club? Tobias-UK (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

They were given squad nos last year. The reason the are not listed on the Saints website is the 25 rule. Probably best that they are linked there. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 19:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Either the players are in the first team squad or they are not. As the club have not (as yet) given them a first team squad number for the 2008 season their names should not appear in the first team squad until such time that the club have themselves included their names.

25 rule? What rule is that? There is no rule that limits a Super League club to just 25 first team players. Tobias-UK (talk) 16:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether it is the Super League Squads bit detailed here or the 20-25 salary cap rule from previous years but there is no upper limit on a squad size that I am aware of, just that you'd have to pay the rest of the squad less.Londo06 17:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

That is my understanding too Londo06. Given that the club have not yet allocated (or at least published) squad numbers for the individuals concerned then their inclusion on the list should be removed until such time that the club do officially issue and announce numbers for them. To include their names before that time would take away efficacy of the St Helens RFC WiKi listing. Are there any objections to these to names being removed from the squad list until such time that the club announce their official inclusion in the current first team squad and confirm their official squad number? Tobias-UK (talk) 14:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe they should stay, they still train with the squad, they've got professional contracts just not included under an administrative rule.Londo06 14:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

They may have a professional contract but they are not (yet) named as first team squad members - they are officially recognised as Reserve Team players (see the club website). Where is the proof that they have been given the squad numbers listed? A citation is needed to confirm the accuracy of the listing - without that the names should be removed and included on the listing for the Reserve Team until such time their squad numbers are officially announced. If the so-called "25 rule" is the reason for their non-inclusion in the first team squad (and a citation is needed for that) then the WiKi entry should still reflect fact and show details of the official squad as announced by the club. An administrative rule or not, if it is a rule then the WiKi listing should reflect that rule. By all means mention the other players within the commentary of the listing, but to include them now in the list is wrong. There are other fringe players who also have professional contracts but they have not been included - so why just these two? To comply with the WiKi rule for accuracy the names should be removed until such time that the club announce their respective numbers. Tobias-UK (talk) 10:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The unverifiable information has been removed until the players' squad numbers and inclusion in the First Team are officially announced and confirmed by the club. Tobias-UK (talk) 20:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Administrative rule, I see no reason to remove them from the page. If you want to set them apart and write a note I would have no problem with that.Londo06 09:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
WiKi REQUIRES that content is VERIFIABLE. The inclusion of those players in the First Team Squad has not been verified by the club or RFL - the only organisations who can verify it. Once verification is available then the names should be included until then the names are removed. Tobias-UK (talk) 12:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Removed Dave Hull as that was his squad number from last year and can find no verification that he trains with the first team.Londo06 16:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

So where is the verifiable evidence that Dean McGilvrey has been issued the number 28 shirt and is a member of the first team squad? If you are going to insist that his name is included then please provide the verifiable evidence. If you are going to keep insisting that Dean's name is included then this matter will have to be reported as a dispute with Wikipedia for them to adjudicate. The rules of Wikipedia are clear and unequivocal in this regard, the rules state: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." So, in accordance with that rule, until such time that verifiable proof is provided proving that Dean (or any other player) has been officially issued with a squad number and has been included in the 'official' first team squad (and not simply that they have been training with the first team squad) then his name should not appear in the list. Tobias-UK (talk) 19:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Added in a citation for Dean McGilvray. Confirmed that he is in the squad, there are obviously many others out there, this one was grabbed from this page. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

That is not verification. Only an official source will do. The club's official website confirms McGilvray to be in the RESERVE TEAM so his inclusion in the First Team squad article is wrong in fact. His name must not be placed back until the squad number and his inclusion is confirmed by the club. The Sky page is not verification, in any event it does not list a squad number and that is the issue. He should only be included when the club issue and announce the number. Tobias-UK (talk) 15:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be wrong about that one fella. And also wrong about your claims on squad numbers determining which squad they may train with. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 18:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Where is it wrong? Can you PLEASE show me just ONE official source where the number 28 has been announced and issued to Dean? Just one please? I'll be a very happy chap if you can, absolutely delighted. At the end of the day the Saints OFFICIAL website lists Dean in the Reserve Team and NOT the first team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobias-UK (talkcontribs) 23:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Kits[edit]

If you look at the pages for the NRL clubs they all have PNG images to show their club colours in comparison to the ones we have on the superleague teams' pages they look much better. A good idea to change them to the same style maybe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billybobalobadob (talkcontribs) 17:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it looks a thousand times better than what it has now.- User:Ymron —Preceding undated comment added 17:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC).

Fan songs[edit]

Does this section have any place in the main article - Rehnn83 Talk 11:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Popular fan songs[edit]

  • "Come On You Saints"
  • "St. Helens"
  • "St. Helens Rugby" (To tune of "You Light Up My Senses")
  • "When the Saints Go Marching In"
  • "And it's St. Helens" (To tune of "The Wild Rover")
  • "James Graham"
  • "James Roby" (To tune of "Tom Hawk")
  • "I Love You Wellens" (To tune of "I Love You Baby")
  • "If you all hate Wigan clap your hands"

History section[edit]

The history section is becoming a bit over-big, if you will, now. Should it be moved to a History of St Helens Rugby League Football Club (or RLFC) page and a more general overview replace it on the main page?

Thanks,

Ymron (talk) 20:16, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Catalans vs. St Helens - 19 August 2006[edit]

Saints put a very inexperienced squad out for the above game, most of whom had never played first-grade football before. Therefore, when they played this match, they played professionally, meaning they are eligible to a page on WP. I have started Gary Langley, but if someone could find the time to even start some of other players who played in this game, it would be much appreciated.

The squad can be found here,

Many thanks for your help,

Ymron (talk) 18:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Potential name change[edit]

I don't know if anyone else is aware of this, but St Helens will be changing their logo for next season, a crest that features the name "Saints RL". Despite this abbreviation that is aimed at broadening Saints' fan base, Eamonn McManus said in League Weekly that the name St Helens Rugby League Football Club would essentially be retained. I just thought I'd make a note of this on the talk page for future reference, in case someone thinks the page should be moved to Saints RL.

Thanks,

Ymron (talk) 20:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure there'll be plenty of interest in national media if this is true, and when Saints confirm it. At which point, a page move should be discussed on the WikiProject's talk page. Other factors must be considered when naming an article. GW(talk) 20:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I see what you mean, wait until it's out there in the open, and then see if a page move is needed.
Ymron (talk) 20:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

[edit]

Just thinking about changing the logo to the new 'Saints RL' logo on the main page. Would now be appropriate or more towards the new season? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billybobalobadob (talkcontribs) 08:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks again for uploading those. I don't see why the logo shouldn't be changed to the new one now.
Thanks again,
Ymron (talk) 13:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Shall I upload it as a new version of 'saints.png' or as a completely new file? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billybobalobadob (talkcontribs) 14:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I plan to do a section on the history of St Helens logos, so I think it would be best if it were uploaded under a new file name, so that the current (or soon to be old) one is retained.
Thanks,
Ymron (talk) 14:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

This can only be uploaded November 1st after speaking to my friend at the club so will sort it then. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billybobalobadob (talkcontribs) 14:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks alot,
Ymron (talk) 15:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

B-class[edit]

  1. The article is obviously suitably referenced; a common template of usage and over 300 references, with the vast majority of, if not all of the topic sourced.
  2. The article now covers in balance all of the club's history, the academy/youth system, crest and insignia, sponsors et al, as requested at the last review.
  3. Defined structure, well organised, referenced lead.
  4. I've checked for errors; punctuation is good, en dashes in place of hyphens, a detailed but smooth flow.
  5. Supporting materials; images throughout, infobox as standard, diagrams/illustrations shown by teams for notable cup finals: all present.
  6. Appropriate presentation, terms explained in some context with links to potentially ambiguous tournaments provided.

I doubt it's anywhere near close to GA-class yet, but certainly the B criteria have been met.

Ymron (talk) 14:02, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Dispute resolution: Ricky Tomlinson[edit]

Kitb132 (talk · contribs) has reverted this claim three times now. Although the three reverts didn't occur within the 24 hours necessary for it to be deemed an edit war, I for one would like to see this dispute kicked into touch to prevent further destruction.

In support of claim that Tomlinson is a fan

  • A referenced source in the article states that Tomlinson has three brothers, for which he personally bought them and him four season tickets to St Helens RLFC. It goes on to explain his absence at recent games due to work commitments and that he's also been on the pitch along with Johnny Vegas, another St Helens fan who works as a comedian. A second source would be preferable, especially if it comes from a national newspaper, but I see nothing wrong the claim itself; it should stay. GW(talk) 15:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
  • I think there were bigger fish to fry here, GW (not sure if you ever saw this discussion).--Jeff79 (talk) 02:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Afraid not, too busy watching Wigan trounce everyone around that time. Hmm... lots of misinformation ultimately winning the day in that discussion, if the section ended up being removed (which is appears to have been, judging by the current revision). For me it's simple - he stays: GW(talk) 13:35, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
      • "A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met: (WP:LISTPEOPLE)
The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. (Tomlinson is a B-class article is his own right, so yeah he just about scrapes notability)
The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources." (There's an as yet undisputed reliable source)
So... what's the problem? A claim totally based on OR?
  • As suggested by Ginger Warrior, let's sort this out. I quote from the source: "he's more likely to be cheering on St Helens rugby league team"; if that's what people are calling inaccurate, then all the sources on this page must be removed. I'm not about to be getting into a pathetic edit war over a user who has a bee in his bonnet over something that I, to be honest, don't really care about. "PLEASE DO NOT PUT HIS NAME BACK, HE DOES NOT WANT IT THERE!" Really, how do you know, may I ask? How do you know he has never been to a game? I think I should undo the changes one more time, after that, I'll have to take warning steps and look into protecting the page. Thanks Ginger and Jeff, Ymron (talk) 10:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Just thought I'd add, again straight from the "inaccurate" source; "I haven't been this season, as I've been working, but we went to most of the big games last season." Ymron (talk) 11:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
  • So can we agree that the changes (that have been done once more by the user in question) can be reverted permanently and some protection/warning steps be taken? Ymron (talk) 14:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Yep, seems pretty straight forward to me.Doctorhawkes (talk) 01:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Thank you. However, I don't have administrator rights, and have been advised to wait 48 hours before changing the page back, but at least the consensus is there.Ymron (talk) 10:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Against the original statement

  • I work at the club- Ricky Tomlinson has NEVER been on the pitch, and NEVER been to a match.
    • Comment: Wikipedia does not accept original research as a way of deciding what stays and what goes in an article: "[...] all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed." WP:V backs this up: "[...] whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Whether you, Ymron or I work at the club is irrelevent unless your position gives you access to a source which has already been published in the public domain, in which case, please present it here. GW(talk) 01:31, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Demoltion of the Knowlesy Road ground[edit]

The Knowsley Road ground at St Helens was purchased recently. The principle contractors for the development are Taylor Wimpey. The proposed name of the new housing site is " Cunningham Grange". The demolition was carried out by Cheshire firm "Nick Brookes Group".

Several large machines have been involved with the demolition of the existing stadium, includies Leibher 954, and Extec C12 crusher. Although the club has had a long history at this site, it is hoped that moving to the new ground will allow greater capacity supporters along with a host of new features.

spooneroon Spooneroon (talk) 10:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Discussion about William "Billy" Smith, born in and played for St. Helens(?)[edit]

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league#Incubator discussion regarding William "Billy" Smith, closeout date of July 30.  This article could use someone in St. Helens with access to a local newspaper from the early 1930s.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)