Talk:Standard Chinese

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Hong Kong & Macau: Official Language?[edit]

I would like to point to a discussion at User talk:LiliCharlie#Mandarin as official in Hong Kong and Macau which was started by Moalli a few days ago after I had reverted their edits here and there. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

According to the reference you provided, the official languages of Hong Kong are Chinese and English. "Chinese" is somewhat ambiguous, but official documents are produced in English and Standard Chinese, and government meetings offer simultaneous translation in those languages and Cantonese. So it does seem that Standard Chinese is an official language of HK (and similarly for Macau). Kanguole 20:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Unless someone provides evidence to the contary I'm going to re-add the two special administrative regions early next week. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

It is erroneous to say that Standard Chinese is the official language of Hong Kong. First, it is true that in most cases the written language of Hong Kong is "Chinese" - a style of writing based on Standard Chinese, but not exactly the same. Plus no one will read those texts in Standard Chinese in oral. I would say that it is just a form of 'literal Cantonese". Moreover, Standard Chinese is never a working language in any government department. I guess those who proposed have to clarify the meaning of "De facto".41.36.135.44 (talk) 22:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

This is interesting discussion. User:Citobun recently removed from infobox the Hong Kong flag, so I would welcome if Citobun join the discussion, because it would be nice discussion about what was His reason, because I agree that Chinese standard language is official in Hong Kong (as well as English and Cantonese). When Honk Kong officials say they use Chinese and English I understand they mean they use Standard Chinese and Cantonese and English (probably they wanted to say that Cantonese is dialect of Chinese language or like that, having more or less common written system, that is traditional, that is, in turn, predecessor of simplified Chinese characters system, so they didn't mention the Cantonese language, but I think the Cantonese language must be written in some Hong Kong documents as official language and there just poor references on the Hong Kong documents in the infobox that mention only Chinese and English). Also I say again lots of thanks to User:LiliCharlie who so quickly read my new reference from South China Morning Post and found that I had error rewriting numbers from the article, so I fixed and would ask her if she is pleased my redress or not. Nice to meet all Wikipedians here. Faithfully --PoetVeches (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
I think also there is no sense to mention here Latin word "de facto", because here must be only considered word "de jure", so, as far as I know, the three: Standard Chinese, Cantonese and English, are all official languages in the Hong Kong SAR "de jure", isn't it? --PoetVeches (talk) 23:17, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
In Cantonese/Chinese it was called 兩文三語 policy, which roughly two () written languages English and Chinese (but ignore the fact two writing systems, traditional and simplified Chinese characters), and three () spoken languages. More of the announcements by the government were in Cantonese (in the British Hong Kong era, full English), with real time translation to Pǔtōnghuà (Standard Chinese)/English sometimes by RTHK. However, no one sing the national anthem in Cantonese but PTH. Also, some formal oath (such as appointment as the chief of HK) was conducted in PTH. The Basic Law of Hong Kong did not specific which dialect of Chinese is official, but also protect the traditions of HK. Also, it was a current affair topic for school that using PTH to teach Chinese language lesson, had score lesser than the city average (thus blaming the use of non-native spoken language to teach native written language).
In a one sentence, Standard Chinese is a de jure standard in HK, but not de facto. You can dig out census data for native speaker of PTH. Also, many people claimed they are bilingual in PTH and Cantonese (or more languages), but cannot be verified by the census bureau actually. Matthew hk (talk) 05:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Official languages have little to do with the actual number of speakers among the population, but with their special legal status and their actual or potential use in legal documents and administration. (The word official derives from Latin officium "duty, service; office.") Example: Namibia introduced English as their sole official language in 1990 when less than 1% of the population were English speakers, and several other African nations did similarly. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 06:39, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
it is pretty much depends on the wording the users want to use in infobox (with or without de jure bracket), or just skip the two SARs as they are part of China. Some off-topic, the PTH of the current Chief Executive of Macau is an internet meme, which i personally understand what he was saying, but it seem it was a Macau accent PTH, or just Cantonese people try to invent his own tone. Matthew hk (talk) 06:49, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Official langages are languages state officials (and not necessarily other people) have to use. This is always a legal (=de jure) matter. De facto official languages are not official languages, as in the US, where there is no official language at the federal level, but a debate whether or not to introduce one. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 07:03, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
The Official languages in Hong Kong are "Chinese" and "English" (Basic Law, Article 9), that's your de jure status. The official version of Chinese is not specified (nor English, for that matter - British, American, Australian?), so whatever is, in practice, used at "official" levels is (or even are) is what is de facto official. As there are no comprehensive rules anywhere for what versions are to be used and no document to establish any stricture, WP will be at a considerable stretch to state, with support, what the de facto languages are, both written and spoken, in a truly definitive manner. The suggestion that Standard Chinese is the official language of Chinese in Hong Kong is, thus, completely unsupportable and must not appear here. sirlanz 07:19, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes. I know that in Germany judges had to decide whether Low German (which is not mutually intelligible with Standard German, and historically a different language) is part of the official German language. It would be interesting to see what happens if some state official in HK started to use, say, Taiwanese based on HK's Basic Law. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 07:34, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I doubt it need many translators for native Hong Kong, Cantonese speaking judge and lawyer for a court that was conducted in PTH instead of Cantonese. Thus, it just the matter of "editorial judgement" on should or should not add to the infobox, for a language that not exist in real society. Also unlike English, those accent are mostly mutually intelligible, (except those rural Australia accent or strong Scottish accent), Cantonese and PTH are not mutually intelligible. HK People just trained by TV program to have the listen skill for Standard Chinese, but most Mainland Chinese people are remotely understand Cantonese. Written Chinese may mutually intelligible after converting the characters. Matthew hk (talk) 09:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
As sirlanz pointed out, neither Cantonese nor MSMC/PTH are the languages that are official in HK. Article 9 of HK's Basic law stipulates: "In addition to the Chinese language, English may also be used as an official language by the executive authorities, legislature and judiciary of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region." From a legal point of view it remains unclear which of the numerous varieties are subsumed by the terms "Chinese" and "English" and which are not. Even Dunganese and Scots (≠Scottish English) might be covered, who knows. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 10:07, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── There was another article in the basic law for protecting the traditions and the original way of living, underlying which dialect is the official one. There is no legal case to sue to the High Court yet for the specific language/dialect issue yet. Matthew hk (talk) 10:16, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Discrepancy in number of L2 speakers listed in right column[edit]

Currently the right info column of the page says that 7% of China is an L2 speaker of Standard Mandarin. It currently sites two sources, both of them saying two things: 30% of the country cannot speak Standard Mandarin, and only 7% can speak it "fluently and articulately." What about the other 63%? Elsewhere on the page it states that 53% of Chinese can communicate effectively using Standard Mandarin. I realize that the definition of an L2 language is vague, but I feel that the 7% figure is too low, considering over half the country is at least conversational in it. This may mislead readers into thinking it is a relatively useless language with a very small number of speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.28.100 (talkcontribs) 05:58, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I tend to agree that "communicate effectively" is a mre reasonable standard for an L2. Kanguole 09:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

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Grammar section[edit]

Using colour, either coloured text or highlighting, would make the section easier to follow. Use a different colour for each part of the phrase;

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foreign affairs policeman canceled [did not pay]
[those people]'s visas.

Ensure that the text contrasts with the background for accessibility (Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility#Color). For colours info refer to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Font_color & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Using_colours . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.90.165 (talk) 15:07, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

update need[edit]

update need — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obesecisco (talkcontribs) 15:34, 13 December 2018 (UTC)