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Taiwan is an island country

Taiwan is an island country. It's even listed on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_island_countries as such, and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Taiwan begins with "Taiwan is an island country in East Asia." Other articles like that of Japan or Madagascar also begin with "X is an island country in Y / off the coast of Z..."). It's not strictly necessary but how come this article doesn't begin with "Taiwan is an island country"?

This is pretty much an edit request (please edit the article with this suggestion if it's valid) but I'm more interested if there's a reason why it's not already since I'd assume it to be obvious. Sorry if it's been brought up before, I did check the recent archives of this talk page but couldn't find anything. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Hope it's clear this is a geographical, not political, issue 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes that is clear, i see no reason not to add island. Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done See the 2020 RfC. Remsense诉 16:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

This request does still call it a country. Slatersteven (talk) 16:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

If RfC participants thought island country was permissible, they likely would've specified. Very few did so. Remsense诉 16:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

That would be an assumption, not covered by the close which only covers the issue of county, which this does not change. I can only go by myself, but I try to answer the RFC question asked, not any ancillary matters (so if asked whether we call dogs animals I would say yes, not yes but also call them 4-legged) Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm only an IP and I'm just repeating Slatersteven's point but I would disagree, the debate was over whether Taiwan should be referred to on Wikipedia as a "country" or as a (sovereign) "state", not over the geography. If Hungary's status was disputed for some reason you wouldn't bother specifying in an RFC that you believe it as a "landlocked country" in place of a "landlocked state", right? You would just comment "I think Hungary should be called a country", I don't think the fact that most didn't specify in the 2020 RFC is worth much. Adding "island" does nothing to dispute Taiwan's political status. Ultimately this is only a minor and not-necessary change and it's up to actual editors like you though. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 17:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I mean we can but in general it can get a bit wordy... And there is wide variation across the project, for example we use just country for Indonesia and for the Phillipines we use "archipelagic country" but with a link to archipelagic state. Personally I would rather that they all just say country in the first sentence of the lead and do geography elsewhere in the lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree it doesn't matter much, the lead is clear it is made of islands, the inclusion of it as an adjective or not is just flavouring. CMD (talk) 02:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree it is just flavoring, but I think “island country” would be quite descriptive and helpful both in the first sentence and in the short description. I think we all agree this would still satisfy the 2020 RfC consensus to use “country.” Butterdiplomat (talk) 03:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Certainly agree it doesn't affect the RfC result either way. CMD (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I would be in favour of the change, but some people have objected to it in the past. As I recall, the arguments were (a) it's not just one island, but several little ones too, and (b) claims to the mainland. Of course the first is true of all the other island countries too. Kanguole 12:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

not true! CMD (talk) 01:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Just add the link.. Island country ....not a big deal and leads readers to info like "a country whose primary territory consists of one or more islands or parts of islands. " and a map that talks about this small country. Moxy🍁 12:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think claims to the “mainland” (a historical and partisan claim) should dictate how the country is factually described. This description also does not prevent the historical ROC claims from being included elsewhere in the article. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Saying Taiwan ROC is an island country is different from saying ROC controls the island. Making them equivalent sounds too much like a political position about its territory. I don't think the first sentence of this article should implicitly promote one. Leave "island" out. The third and fourth sentences already describe the situation as-is. "The territories controlled by the ROC consist of 168 islands with a combined area of 36,193 square kilometres (13,974 square miles). The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa..." CurryCity (talk) 13:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I don’t see the discrepancy or political position. The ROC is (as it stands and as described, like you say, in the next few sentences) an island country. It is a country (which is a political statement deemed accurate from various RfC processes), and it is made of islands. What do you feel is the position the statement implicitly promotes? Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Seconding Butterdiplomat, need some explanation of what you mean by this. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:13, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The article already begins with calling Taiwan a country, not a state or just land controlled by the ROC. That's a political position of its territory already. Island countries aren't any more or less legitimate than continental countries, why would calling Taiwan an island country be changing anything? 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:71EA:103B:48DE:BCF8 (talk) 17:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the major problem with disagreement on marking the ROC as island country because quite amount of people consider the concept of Taiwan and the Republic of China are not exactly the same, despite being largely overlapping in their current territorial extent. Many people especially those pro-KMT advocate the idea that the ROC still owns sovereignty over Mainland China or Mongolia in constitutional terms. Actually this page once had a discussion not long ago regarding the constitutional claims made by the ROC (see Talk:Taiwan/Archive 39#"Current ROC territorial claims" vs. "historical ROC territorial claims"), the country template show a map [1] depicting a “historical territorial claim” without any reliable supporting sources. Some editors have expressed their concerns about the constitutional terms which did not exactly apply any specific territorial extent to the ROC sovereign claims. Therefore, in practice we may call it an island country, but somehow the wikipedia decided to take a neutral ground on that definition, which was “country” as a consensus in common, but we do not give any explicit definition for the ROC being a state claiming to be a country that beyond the islands of Taiwan or a country limited to these islands. Sheherherhers (talk) 00:14, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Very well put, thank you. Should "island country" ideally be removed from the article on the geography of Taiwan and Taiwan from both the list and map on the list of island countries? 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:71EA:103B:48DE:BCF8 (talk) 10:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

This is not exactly what I mean… What I’m saying is that the Wikipedia allows somewhat ambiguous interpretation in controversial Topics such as Taiwan. It’s not necessary to address a descriptive term as “island country” or “continental country” upon any national-related articles when an inclusive term as simple as “country” that can be accepted by general consensus. So we do not have to make exclusive use for one definition to prevail one another and creating more unnecessary issues. The claims of the ROC is also a political myth that sided by certain group which is just represented as one-side political stance, using country instead of island country does not mean to endorse that position. If the general consensus had a decision to stick to “country”, the Wikipedia would remain a neutral ground on that basis. Sheherherhers (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

And I also looked into the topic of List of island countries. The content has explained very clear that the reason for the inclusion of Taiwan, as Taiwan being “a state has "de facto" control over territories entirely on the islands”. Sheherherhers (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't really think this is the problem, exactly. States and countries are never exactly the same thing—one is an abstraction describing a self-contained administrative, legal, and general political structure, and the other is a greater abstraction encompassing additional, more transcendent elements, e.g. of identity. In English parlance, people feel they are countrymen, they might say they identify with a country—but it would be a much narrower, more cynical statement to say that one is loyal to a state. COMMONNAME aside, this is why it makes sense to call Taiwan a country—because it is one, regardless of the legal fiction of any state.

That said, I don't agree with your formulation because the article isn't about the Republic of China as such, it's about the country Taiwan. There's a hidden conflation there like there is with every article about a modern state because that's what people expect—the article will include the entire political history of the region where the state now is, etc—but it's still a distinction to make.

I'm not personally opposed to calling Taiwan an island country, I just think it's better to be as parsimonious as possible with the rules for pragmatic purposes, given how many gray-faith and bad-faith editors constantly land on this talk page. Remsense诉 10:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it is worth the discussion. Adding “island country” to the short description and the first sentence brings the page in alignment with other island countries, like Japan or Sri Lanka or New Zealand. For the same reason the term is used on the pages, it would make sense here. As a very minor point, “island country” distinguishes Taiwan from Thailand (unfortunately still often confused today) more quickly in the search results.

Just to play devil’s advocate to your point about gray- and bad-faith editors - what exactly do you think their argument would be? Since the term doesn’t change the substance of the lede, the fact that it may attract bad-faith comments makes it worth the clarification IMO. It feels like there is a reason bad-faith editors would want to avoid the clarification, and we shouldn’t cave to their agenda. Butterdiplomat (talk) 12:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

These are fair points. Pencil me in as neutral. Remsense诉 12:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

There are different theories as to the actual territory of ROC and whether that has changed. Wikipedia should not pick and side with one. So the first sentence should not go into the territory of Republic of China, since parts of ROC and Taiwan have been combined into this article.

Remsense touched on the difference between state in the political sense and country in the general sense, political or not. Equating ROC which is the name of a state with island country is not supported, although you may be able to argue that ROC controls the island country of Taiwan including minor islands.

It's 2024. Not that many English speakers are still confused about Thailand and Taiwan. CurryCity (talk) 04:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The lede already defines Taiwan as a country, which was the RfC consensus. To Remsense’s point, there is a distinction between country and state, and the article is already about the country. So, it is consistent to then extend the description to say island country.

The article is also about the modern state of the ROC, the actual territory of which is not really in dispute (at least the vast majority of it). The only dispute is one of official recognition, which is a matter of political status and also doesn’t have any bearing on the description of the island country in any case. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Equating the modern ROC with island country is just one of the different competing theories. Its territory is disputed politically within Taiwan, by China, and internationally. Wikipedia should document disagreements, not advance one interpretation in the first sentence of a major article. CurryCity (talk) 13:33, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

People have niche theories about plenty of topics, and we weigh them accordingly per WP:DUEWEIGHT. Remsense诉 13:40, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

According to the text in Britannica, the first difference I notice between Thailand and Taiwan is that Thailand is a country[2] but Taiwan is not[3]. It's an island, but the ROC is not an island. It's the entity that controls Taiwan etc. CurryCity (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

See the 2020 RfC, as the exhaustive survey of RS has been done there already. Again, we're specifically talking about whether "island country" is acceptable in addition to "country". The other dimensions you seem to have a hankering to discuss have already been deliberated and decided on. Remsense诉 14:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

And Britannica has not surveyed "reliable sources" better than a few Wikipedia editors did back in 2020? CurryCity (talk) 14:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

How am I supposed to know that? It's pretty daft to insinuate our editorial process hinges on what we assume another encyclopedia's editorial process probably is.Remsense诉 14:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I have to say, using Britannia as well-reliable source is not definite. First, Taiwan in this article or people nowadays referred to, is not just focusing on one island obviously. The context explained it quite well, “The territories controlled by the ROC consist of 168 islands with a combined area of 36,193 square kilometres. The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa, has an area of 35,808 square kilometres”. It’s quite clear that the concept of Taiwan here we input referring to the governing authority that currently controlled 168 island with island of Taiwan as major base. And I think for the same article in Britannia which does mean the same for the actual-ruled authority rather than focusing on one major island only. Just like Great Britain said by peoples, frequently referred to the whole UK rather than an island. Therefore, by saying that the definition of Taiwan is just “an island” apparently wrong, even for Britannia. Neither of Wikipedia nor Britannia treat it as a mere geographical topic in regards to Taiwan.

Besides, Britannia did sort Taiwan in their category for “countries of the world”, you can look into the same page again and check the headings. Sheherherhers (talk) 18:32, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you trying to re-litigate the previous discussion about whether Taiwan is a country or not? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:48, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

No, I haven't seen any source saying the ROC is an island country. CurryCity (talk) 14:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

"Voters in the Republic of China (ROC), the official name for Taiwan, a prosperous island country 100 miles off the coast of mainland China, go to the polls on Jan. 13 to replace term-limited President Tsai Ing-wen and parliamentarians for the country’s unicameral legislature." CMD (talk) 17:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

They tend to say Taiwan is an island country or conflate it with ROC, which is understandable for a campus newspaper. CurryCity (talk) 16:26, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

This article currently states Taiwan is a country. It states Taiwan is officially known as the ROC. The two are not contradictory as you suggest. I don’t think you fully understand that Taiwan is both the name of the island and the ROC’s common name.

There are some other references: Washington Examiner, published work, Timeline Daily. Butterdiplomat (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion here. The name “Taiwan” can refer to an island, but it actually refers to a country in this article. The island country that we are referring to clearly applies to the latter. Adding “island” as a descriptor does not contradict the current formulation, and it is clearly a helpful descriptor if even frequent editors of the page don’t see this as an obvious fact (i.e., it is not redundant). Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The confusion is not limited to Wikipedia. Maybe a dozen of editors knows precisely that for the purpose of this article, we refer to the ROC as Taiwan. However, when outside sources write something about Taiwan as an island or a country, they can have a very different concept about the terms. This also confuses many new editors and readers.

The main topic of this article appears to be the polity ROC, referred to as Taiwan for convenience. So Taiwan here really means ROC. CurryCity (talk) 16:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

No, this article is about the country Taiwan. Just like every other country article, it conflates the polity and the geographical region considerably, but just like every other country article it is not actually secretly about only one of those things. Remsense诉 16:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

"Taiwan is a common name for ROC" has been used by several editors here as a rationale to change mentions of ROC to Taiwan on thousands of articles. All of a sudden, this main article is not really about ROC? CurryCity (talk) 17:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Usually those mentions are talking about the country Taiwan, I imagine. Remsense诉 17:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Its only about the ROC as much as it overlaps with the modern political polity of Taiwan... For the earlier period we have Republic of China (1912–1949) etc. In the modern context there is no difference between "The Republic of China is an island country" and "Taiwan is an island country" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much just like we have French Fourth Republic as well as France. Remsense诉 17:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Modern France is a successor of the fourth republic. For Taiwan and ROC this is still ambiguous. CurryCity (talk) 17:22, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

That's something you have to work out for yourself. The sources aren't really so conflicted about it, thankfully. Remsense诉 17:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Most sources just parrot this article "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China", or "Republic of China, the official name of Taiwan". CurryCity (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually, this article parrots those sources, not the other way around. CMD (talk) 17:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Why would the country of Taiwan if it's not ROC have a mainland period then? CurryCity (talk) 17:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Taiwan does not have a mainland period, are you being confused by the see also? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:21, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

You might need to ask your pastor about that one. The idea of a country is not atemporal. Remsense诉 17:21, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@CurryCity, with due respect, would you mind answering my question below about your argument? It feels like you are jumping around quite a bit, and I would just like to understand what your concern is. Butterdiplomat (talk) 17:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not intentionally jumping around. CurryCity (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Just so I can properly understand your argument, are you opposed only to (1) stating “island country” in the first sentence or short description, (2) stating it anywhere in the lede, (3) implying it at all, or (4) stating Taiwan is a country at all? Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Should not equate or imply that ROC is an island (or a group of islands 17:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)) in wikivoice, because that is one of several political positions. CurryCity (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

“Island country” does not imply a single island, if that is what you are concerned about. Butterdiplomat (talk) 17:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Not exactly what I meant but see my changes above. CurryCity (talk) 17:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Before we run through the cycle again: we pick the majority view and work with it in wikivoice per WP:DUE. What are the other positions here? State them clearly.Remsense诉 17:44, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

You still don't get it. When outside sources write about Taiwan being an island country, they are not necessarily implying anything about ROC's territory. We have this problem because editors and articles on Wikipedia use Taiwan as a name for ROC.

WP:DUE means majority view of RS proportional to their quality, not the number of votes. Otherwise with so much content online, a point can be made about any political position. CurryCity (talk) 17:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

And what RS hold the view that the Republic of China currently includes a territory other than Taiwan and minor islands? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

They are not saying ROC is a group of islands either. They say it controls Taiwan etc, which is how this article already explains the situation. Look at the proposal objectively, it's a major change in meaning to the first sentence of a major article despite the long-standing way things have been phrased. CurryCity (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

When we state Taiwan is an island country, we're not saying anything about the ROC's territory either. Saying France is a European country doesn't say anything about the French Republic's territory in South America or the Pacific. Remsense诉 17:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I've said this before. Taiwan is generally used to stand in for ROC on Wikipedia. French overseas territory is not an analogy for "mainland territory" of Taiwan, the history and geography are completely different. CurryCity (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Taiwan is a country. Most of the time when Taiwan is linked on Wikipedia, it is referring to the country Taiwan. Remsense诉 18:12, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Taiwan is used to stand in for the ROC polity in the modern context, because the country and state are often conflated, as in other country articles. However, Taiwan the island country has a history that predates the ROC as well. In any case, the ROC's territories are currently in fact made of islands, and this is reflected in the primary map shown for the ROC. Any interpretation otherwise could probably be considered original research or simply unsupported by RS. Any political position that the ROC should control more or less than an island country is also not relevant. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Saying Tawian ROC is an island country in the first sentence would sound too much like Wikipedia itself supports a certain interpretation of Taiwan's status or even independence from parts of the pan-green camp, specifically the theory that "Republic of China is Taiwan", at the expense of other viewpoints on the matter. CurryCity (talk) 13:03, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

In English, Republic of China and Taiwan are currently two different names for the same polity. That polity is currently an island country. If this English language fact is picked up on by this or that political campaign, that is not really relevant to this page. CMD (talk) 13:11, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Thats the mainstream pan-blue POV these days as well... The view that you seem to want us to respect is a WP:FRINGE one and if it isn't you can disprove that by providing high quality reliable sources which present that POV. Besides for fringe extremists both pan-blue and pan-green camps agree that Taiwan is independent, they just disagree on what form that independence takes. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The revision history began with the Republic of China if I'm not mistaken. Was there a merge or move? Vacosea (talk) 12:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Very early on, because it's obviously the WP:COMMONNAME of the country. Remsense诉 12:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Do you happen to know which discussion to search for? Vacosea (talk) 13:20, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Everything since 2010 is in the banners above. There was a reorganization in 2003, but I don't know if anyone has mapped out that history. CMD (talk) 22:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

The idea that since the article history traces back to the Republic of China, it (currently named Taiwan) can only be about a narrow definition of what it was formerly named would be a false premise. The modern polity of the ROC is commonly known as Taiwan, and Taiwan has a history that predates the ROC. This article is about Taiwan. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying Taiwan isn't a country or island. I'm saying Wikipedia should not say or equate ROC is an island country because its exact territory is still in dispute with competing theories, and Wikipedia should not favor one by saying ROC already is (blank). That's why so many sources say ROC controls Taiwan. CurryCity (talk) 08:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

You are conflating the usage, though. In “the ROC controls Taiwan,” the ROC refers to the state, and Taiwan refers to the island. In a historical context, this is relevant because the ROC didn’t always control the island. But in any other usage where it is “Taiwan, officially named the ROC,” Taiwan refers to the country currently named the ROC officially.

Taiwan is a country (per 2020 RfC and subsequent discussions), and it is made of islands. That the ROC state’s territory is disputed is noted already in the article, but the factual situation has not really changed in 60+ years, and definitely not since RS started consistently using Taiwan as a stand-in for the ROC. Butterdiplomat (talk) 09:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

My main point is not addressed. We can't say what kind of country the ROC is even if Formosa and other nearby or far-off islands arguably form an island country under the common name "Taiwan". The United States and several other major countries have never recognised that ROC has sovereignty over the territory of "Taiwan". The PRC and its allies do not recognise the ROC at all, state or country, and consider the territory of "Taiwan" as part of "China". People in the pan-blue camp may recognise territory beyond "Taiwan" but under ROC not PRC. While independence supporters, whose numbers are still significant, believe the ROC is a government in exile without a territory. There is no consensus in terms of kind of country the ROC is (other than what it controls, which as I've pointed out is already accurately described). Wikipedia shouldn't make something new up. The 2020 RfC never addressed this as far as I can tell. CurryCity (talk) 09:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, the ROC is not the country (otherwise, your argument would extend to dispute the usage of “country” as well); it is a state that is (similar to other country articles) conflated with the country Taiwan due to the overlap in the modern context. The different interpretations and political positions about ROC’s territories are mentioned in the article and discussed in Political status of Taiwan. This article is about the country of Taiwan, which in the modern context, overlaps with the territories controlled by the state ROC. How the UN, US, political parties, and PRC interpret the ROC’s territories (political) is not relevant to what kind of country Taiwan is (factual). Butterdiplomat (talk) 10:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

On a historical level just about everything you just said is wrong. I think maybe you're confused or misinformed and so what you have to say isn't meshing with what other people are saying here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:10, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Your reasoning about Taiwan does not equate with ROC. What ROC fully means is in dispute. Wikipedia should not have an unsupported statement implying anything about ROC territory in the first sentence. It is disputed by the US, PRC, other countries, and members of Taiwan's own blue and green camps. Even Taiwan's own web site only refers to control, "The ROC government began exercising jurisdiction over Taiwan". Straight from the horse's mouth. CurryCity (talk) 07:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

There are different meanings to "Taiwan", and I think some of the above was also more definitive about vague words like "country" and "state" than we can be at this level. The use of "Taiwan" on this page refers to the polity of the Republic of China, although the page of course covers the island of Taiwan, the history of the area, and other relevant context as all polity pages do. There are other semantic and philosophical positions on various terms, but the use on this article is determined by the wording used by English-language sources to refer to the article topic. CMD (talk) 07:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

That does not seem to be the definition many people are going with here in this discussion. Qiushufang (talk) 00:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure what definitions people are trying to use, maybe they could provide it, but that is the definition used to title this article following the 2012 RM. CMD (talk) 01:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

My main point is not addressed: How the UN, US, political parties, and PRC interpret the ROC’s territories (political) is not relevant to what kind of country Taiwan is (factual). Butterdiplomat (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

This might help clarify the scope of the article. Instead of "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China", open with "Taiwan, a jurisdiction under the Republic of China". Other editorial decisions would then fall into place naturally. Vacosea (talk) 22:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think that is quite consistent with the existing consensus. The fact is that Taiwan is the country, currently and officially known as the Republic of China. That is how English-language sources have referenced Taiwan and what common usage has been. Your phrasing makes Taiwan a separate entity and your description of this Taiwan is not a country, but a geographic area currently covered by Geography of Taiwan.

Just because a few people are irritated by the usage of “Taiwan” in any capacity relating to a state or country (despite RS doing so) does not mean we need to only relegate “Taiwan” to an island. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, what I'm actually suggesting is something like "Taiwan, an official jurisdiction (definition 3) of the Republic of China, is an island country in East Asia". The opening right now sounds as if the article is about the Republic of China. Correctly describing the relationship makes what follows naturally refer to Taiwan only, the currently active jurisdiction and country. Again I'm not proposing any changes to the article's name or the word country. Vacosea (talk) 05:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The article is about the Republic of China. CMD (talk) 05:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Not true according to Etymology and History sections. It's about Taiwan only and the Republic of China only if overlapping with Taiwan. Vacosea (talk) 05:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure what definition of Taiwan you are using, but its use on this article refers to the Republic of China unless contextually disambiguated. CMD (talk) 06:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The article is about the country of Taiwan, which overlaps with the Republic of China in the modern context in common usage. The Etymology section explains the word Taiwan’s other meanings. It is similar to China in that way. It would not make sense to say “China, an official jurisdiction of the People’s Republic of China, is a country in East Asia” - even though you could say this makes sense if the words are defined a certain way. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

What the different terms mean are not as clear as they can be. It's been said that this is about ROC, not about ROC, about Taiwan, about the intersection of Taiwan and ROC. The first sentence should be more accurate and neutral than the article's title. COMMONNAME does not need to override other concerns everywhere. CurryCity (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

What exactly are the “other concerns”? We apply COMMONNAME where appropriate, but the article is about the country Taiwan in any case. Like other country articles, there is a conflation of country and current state. For example, China is both about the People’s Republic of China and the history that predates the PRC; Greece is both about the Hellenic Republic and the history prior. Laos is about the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, and so on.

There is no RS that dispute Taiwan as an island country, and as far as I can tell, any political position that challenges Taiwan/ROC as an island country also challenges it as a country in the first place - which is a FRINGE stance that is irrelevant for this discussion. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

COMMONNAME is about article titles not everything else. You're saying because Taiwan is an island country, and it is the "common name" according to some Wikipedia editors, therefore ROC is also an island country, but I don't think that's supported. It sounds like WP:OR and conflating the idea of name with the idea of equivalence. Furthermore, the nature of ROC arguably even Taiwan is not a settled fact where the language of supporting RS can override everything else. It is an ongoing debate in reality, and Wikipedia should describe the different views neutrally without promoting solely one in wikivoice, especially since "ROC is Taiwan" is a DPP-centric political theory. Here is what the United States said in 2008, not a fringe stance on some settled fact but a legitimate point of view in an ongoing debate: Taiwan, or the Republic of China, is not at this point a state in the international community. The position of the United States government is that the ROC -- Republic of China -- is an issue undecided, and it has been left undecided, as you know, for many, many years. CurryCity (talk) 10:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not a political theory, it's a simple observance of the English language. Taiwan, or the Republic of China, as they say. That is why the article on the ROC is titled Taiwan. The place for detailed semantic and political critiques is probably not this high-level article, but it may fit elsewhere. CMD (talk) 11:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The theory literally includes "ROC is Taiwan", while other theories disagree. None has been established as a fact, so it should not be stated in wikivoice. "Observance" of the English language is not as important in comparison. CurryCity (talk) 13:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Observing use of the English language is vitally important to the writing here, as it relates to the meaning of the language the readers use. This particular English meaning is a well-known fact, as per the source you cited. CMD (talk) 13:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The theory of “ROC is Taiwan” is not the reason this article is outlined the way it is. English language usage is. Taiwan is a country (with its various cultural and historical aspects predating whatever modern state it is conflated with) that is officially known as the Republic of China. This formulation is consistent even with the quote you yourself provided. I’d like to stress that the proposal is a simple and helpful addition of “island” to the existing “country” description that is already reflective of the consensus, so the usage of “country” is not being relitigated in this specific discussion. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Please explain what you mean by name vs. equivalence, because it is not clear what the concerns are. Different names can refer to the same thing (Taiwan and ROC referring to the same country), and one name can refer to several things (Taiwan referring to country or island), but it is very clear in this article. The only thing being conflated, as typical of country articles, is the country and modern state.

COMMONNAME is applied to the title and as appropriate throughout the article - please explain where you think it is being misused. We don’t say North Korea (vs. DPRK) in the title and then nowhere else in the article; or Greece (vs. Hellenic Republic).

We are not “promoting” a partisan view but reflecting common usage in the English language. It is not our responsibility to avoid describing facts simply because they align with a particular partisan theory. In that same vein, your 2008 quote is irrelevant because political positions like that were fully discussed in the 2020 RfC. If anything, it demonstrates the point that different names can refer to the same thing. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

It has not been factually settled whether ROC is Taiwan or an island country. The US and a few other countries do not even recognise that the territory of Taiwan belongs to ROC. It is an actual debate in international politics, not just how language is used on Wikipedia. The first sentence should not promote one view in wikivoice while burying others. Some of your arguments basically boil down to this or that is "irrelevant". CurryCity (talk) 13:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Per above, the “ROC is Taiwan” theory is not the reason we state “Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a country …” in the lede. Common usage in English is. “Island country”, like “country”, would not be saying what belongs to the ROC, presumably meaning what diplomatically or politically is recognized. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

It would because you would be equating ROC with island country and changing the meaning for ROC. This is not just about language on Wikipedia. In reality, different views on ROC exist. Besides the US which considers the ROC issue undecided, Germany considers Taiwan is a part of China.[4] Adding island in wikivoice would make the first sentence deviate even more from the actual ROC debate. CurryCity (talk) 05:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Please note that what the U.S. considers undecided is the issue of Taiwan, not the issue of the ROC. Matt Smith (talk) 06:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

We are not changing the meaning of the ROC. We are describing the island country Taiwan (officially named ROC) as it is and as the English language describes it. Views on ROC territories can either be factual or political, and it should not be an issue prioritizing the factual over any political views that contradict the factual.

You keep bringing up political views of Taiwan not being a country or being part of China, and you aren’t really explaining their relevance to this discussion. To be clear, are you agreeing it is factually an island country, but preferring to not reference this in the first sentence only (due to various and inconsistent political views)? Butterdiplomat (talk) 10:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If ROC territory is unsettled, it cannot be said or equated to an island country in wikivoice. The US and others view Taiwan (island) as not anyone's official territory and is undetermined intentionally. Germany, PRC, KMT and their supporters say it's part of the country China. Some DPP members think it's Taiwan only but that's not the only view either. CurryCity (talk) 15:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

That is not the US position. That hasn't been the KMT position since the 1980s or earlier and the German position is more nuanced than that. See WP:FRINGE Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Calling important countries and party fringe is not going to win you any points. US 2008 The position of the United States government is that the ROC -- Republic of China -- is an issue undecided, and it has been left undecided, as you know, for many, many years. The ROC (Taiwan) to date does not consider itself to be a separate independent State. Germany 2019 Like the PRC, it takes the position that there is only one “China” of which both Taiwan and the mainland are a part. KMT 2020 Taiwan’s main opposition party, the Kuomintang, has decided to keep the 1992 consensus on “one China” as part of its cross-strait policy CurryCity (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't appear to understand what you're talking about, the 1992 consensus as a policy position is not a claim to the territory of the PRC. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Why don't you explain what it means then if you know what you're talking about? CurryCity (talk) 16:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

That isn't the purpose of this talk page or this specific discussion, if you would like to learn more about the 1992 consensus I suggest the linked article as a place to start. If you want to learn more about German-Taiwan relations I suggest Germany–Taiwan relations as a starting point. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I have provided reliable sources to oppose the change to the first sentence in wikivoice. Is your evasiveness because you might actually be wrong? Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) has rejected the formula, saying it implies that Taiwan is a part of China[5] CurryCity (talk) 17:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell you did not do that, what I see is an argument so confusing and multi-threaded that here in the end it has convinced no-one and tied up its author. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not responsible for the multi-threaded digression that you have been on lately. CurryCity (talk) 18:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

You have not. Your sources at best dispute the political / diplomatic popularity of interpreting Taiwan (island)’s status. And you’re having to shift definitions to make the point you’re trying to make. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I advise both of you to speak truthfully about the discussion. My first comment was literally consistent with my position now: Saying Taiwan ROC is an island country is different from saying ROC controls the island. Making them equivalent sounds too much like a political position about its territory. I don't think the first sentence of this article should implicitly promote one and I have provided sources from US, Germany, and KMT with different non-fringe views on ROC territory to object to the proposed change to this article's first sentence in wikivoice. CurryCity (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This article is about Taiwan (country), which is factually an island country. I think you are hung up on the “officially the Republic of China” part of the sentence and also are interpreting it as saying Taiwan (island) is equivalent to the ROC; we are not saying this.

If it helps, you can think of it as saying Taiwan (country) is currently officially the Republic of China. Prior to the arrival of the ROC government, the country had a multitude of rulers that predate the ROC. This formulation is consistent with China (officially the People’s Republic of China) and Greece (officially the Hellenic Republic), and virtually all country articles.

That the U.S., Germany, and various political parties have views on ROC territories does not change the fact that Taiwan (country) is made up of Taiwan (island) and other islands, i.e., an island country. Butterdiplomat (talk) 19:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

By your definition(s), territory still matters if Taiwan (country) is ROC, which cannot be said to be an island country in wikivoice. I supported ROC "control" of islands. You mentioned the China (PRC) article, which also does not imply territory in the first sentence. What China is with or without Taiwan is unstated. CurryCity (talk) 19:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Taiwan (country) very obviously cannot be the ROC at all times and into eternity (your “ROC is Taiwan” objection appears to hold this strawman). We have a separate article for the state prior to its arrival to Taiwan, and we do not opine on where we think it goes in the future. But, currently and notably conflated by RS, Taiwan and the ROC are names for the same island country. Butterdiplomat (talk) 20:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Slightly differentiating the Republic of China from Taiwan can avoid problems like this, because you can all be correct depending on the usage. For example "air" is a synonym for the atmosphere of Earth, but they are not technically the same thing [6]. Vacosea (talk) 22:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

We actually do differentiate the terms in the Etymology section, quite extensively. But for the purpose of this country article and for practical, factual reasons, the article conforms to other country articles and English language usage. Adding “island” to country does not change that. Butterdiplomat (talk) 22:52, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Straw poll

In an effort to move the discussion along and suss out more viewpoints and arguments, I would like to start a straw poll and welcome everyone’s opinion, comment, or questions. For the avoidance of doubt, the proposal here is to revise the first sentence to Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is an island country in East Asia. That is, we are merely adding “island” before the existing “country” language.

Feel free to state your position on the proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account any relevant Wikipedia conventions or guidelines, as well as the 2020 RfC.

Comment I don't think "merely adding" is a neutral way of phrasing this Rfc. CurryCity (talk) 12:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Support' even mainland China academics use this type of terminology... Gao, A.M.Z. (2023). Environmental Law in Taiwan. Wolters Kluwer. p. 19. ISBN 978-94-035-2926-4. Retrieved 2024-07-05..Moxy🍁 17:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think the first paragraph of that section is copied from the Wikipedia Geography of Taiwan article (circa late 2022). Kanguole 17:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  Leaving alone the possibility that a generic statement could just be self-evident enough that it did not warrant any citation, it would be near impossible to say this was copied from Wikipedia. Even if we assume that, couldn’t it be equally meaningful as a confirmation of accepted terminology? The point was that this formulation was used in an academic paper. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  The first paragraph is identical to the first paragraph of this version. Plagiarism indicates lack of scrutiny, not meaningful confirmation. Kanguole 18:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, I take your point. Was thinking it was just the first, relative generic sentence. I stand corrected. Tossing out that particular example, there are certainly no shortage of other sources. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  Dame looks like we've got some plagiarism on our page..... the section in the book was first published in 2016. Moxy🍁 18:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  They make only passing mentions. The first one does not appear to be in the book's voice but looks like a quote of someone else. Another one that's self-published from Gilad James Mystery School, a collection of dozens of online courses in mysterious topics such as Occultism, Witchcraft, Kabbalah, and other esoteric and hidden knowledge.[7] Do they specifically intend to mean ROC is an island country according to the usage Taiwan is ROC? CurryCity (talk) 12:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  Why does everyone seems to think Gao is from mainland China? He's a professor at National Tsing Hua University in Hsinchu. CurryCity (talk) 11:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Status quo I'm concerned the article's first sentence is straying more and more into a narrow view point. Many generally reliable sources that mention "island", consistently do not use or combine it with "country": NYT ([8][9]) The Guardian ([10][11]) NPR ([12][13]). The reason is self-evident. There are legitimate debates going on among scholars and political bodies regarding the actual status of Taiwan, ROC, and its territory, ranging from it's part of China[14] to it is "China plus Taiwan"[15][16] to it's merely in control[17] of Taiwan or undecided[18]. Saying Taiwan is a country already bypasses important arguments to the contrary. Equating ROC with "island country" has even less support among the tens of thousands of sources that describe Taiwan. It doesn't make sense trying to pass it off like other island countries that do not face fundamental sovereignty issues. That's simply not the case for Taiwan in reality. CurryCity (talk) 12:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the addition here. Your argument here is almost exactly why I think the added context of island country is needed to qualify what the article is about. It is not about the ROC only or equating the ROC with Taiwan at all times, as in it does not treat Taiwan as an atemporal entity. It is about Taiwan (country), which encompasses Taiwan (island) and other islands geographically and is conflated with the ROC (state) temporally, but only in the modern context.

  Given this, to address the sources/points you provide:

  • NYT, The Guardian, NPR not mentioning country — This has to do with Political status of Taiwan and not our discussion here
  • Sources saying Taiwan is part of China — Depending on the context they are either wrong and fringe (i.e., if they say Taiwan is part of PRC or ROC is part of PRC), clearly political/policy statements (i.e., not a matter of fact), or they are cultural assertions of Taiwan (country or island) being part of China (country) that still do not contradict the proposal
  • Sources saying the ROC is undecided or in control of Taiwan — Again, these are policy statements and also not contradictory to the proposal. Butterdiplomat (talk) 19:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  "Island country" is a statement about territory and political status. CurryCity (talk) 11:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

  Not any more than "country" is, and the status quo of stating Taiwan as a country is already supported by consensus. The addition of "island" in the first sentence only makes it a narrow viewpoint insofar as it makes it an accurate viewpoint. Is the argument that we are to make the first sentence intentionally ambiguous? In that case, for what reason and in whose favor? The viewpoints that Taiwan is not a country or state or nation may be plenty depending on how one defines each term (though a determination was made via the 2020 RfC), but the viewpoint that it is not an island or group of islands is just contrary to any common, academic, or legal references to Taiwan.

  I think you are trying to make the argument that restricting ROC territories to a group of islands only is a political viewpoint, and I understand the point that the ROC has indeed shifted territories dramatically and its political status remains "unresolved". However, this article is about the country known as Taiwan (not least given the article title), which is indeed an island country with several editors effectively noting the proposed language as redundant. Throughout its history and currently (as the ROC officially) and regardless of the state / whether was considered a country, Taiwan has been either an island or made up of islands. Butterdiplomat (talk) 07:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  The first sentence is also about ROC, whose territory is debated politically. I have said control works better in terms of describing the island nature of Taiwan. CurryCity (talk) 14:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

  Like the rest of the article, the first sentence is only about the ROC in the modern context and as Taiwan's current and official name. Any usage of Taiwan, including in the modern period where it is conflated with the ROC state, refers to either an island or group of islands. Butterdiplomat (talk) 00:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support' its a country on an island. Slatersteven (talk) 12:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as not needed here, and complicates the first sentence. Australia does not use analogous terms. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  That particular example is likely as it generates semantic arguments about the definition of "island" and "continent". Checking a few nearby countries, many use "island" but Indonesia does not. CMD (talk) 13:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  Just for completeness, I'd just point out the following articles use "island country": Japan, Vanuatu, Tuvalu, Tonga, Sri Lanka, Saint Lucia, Samoa. This is a common and helpful reference and does not have to be thought of as complicating the sentence in these instances. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The lead already says that the country is made up of a main island and several smaller ones. TFD (talk) 15:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  Just to confirm, you would oppose rather than be neutral because of redundancy? Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support as island country is an accurate description. - Amigao (talk) 02:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose To an article about the ROC, "island country" can be considered assertive and debatable. --Matt Smith (talk) 10:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

  For the avoidance of doubt, this article is about Taiwan (country) and is only about the ROC insofar as the two are conflated in modern usage. Could you articulate what your concerns are of adding an island descriptor to the already existing country? Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:38, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  That is not exactly correct, this article is about the current polity which is sometimes called Taiwan, sometimes called the Republic of China. Conflation would require other definitions of both terms, which do exist but are not the topic of this article. CMD (talk) 01:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  To clarify, I just mean the conflation of state and country. The modern state (ROC) is often conflated with the country (Taiwan), just as the PRC is conflated with China, the Hellenic Republic with Greece, etc. This article includes the polity, but it is also about the history, culture, economy, demographics of the country. Much like other country articles. Butterdiplomat (talk) 02:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  I see what you mean, the challenge is that "state" and "country" are usually interchangeable outside of academic circles, and sometimes even in those circles. Much like other country articles as you say, the sources do not distinguish between the Hellenic Republic and Greece, so at this high-level of article neither should we. If we are getting into the weeds of defining what a country is separate to that of being a state, that is an indication the discussion is likely undue for the article. I raise mostly as the distinction does not seem to bring clarity to discussions here due to the common use of the terms as synonyms, see for example how the debate here seems to have shifted to "country" despite the initial discussion being about "island". Best, CMD (talk) 03:06, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  I fully appreciate that, but I think this discussion is actually not about whether Taiwan is a country or a state (that debate was settled at least for now in the 2020 RfC and other discussions). We are debating what kind of country Taiwan is. Which would be a helpful clarification in the first sentence, in my opinion. I’d argue the fact that this seems contentious illustrates its helpfulness. Butterdiplomat (talk) 05:28, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  According to the first sentence of the lede, this article is about the ROC. If WP:COMMONNAME were not strictly applied, the article title would have been "Republic of China" and the first sentence of the lede would have been "The Republic of China, commonly referred to as Taiwan." Matt Smith (talk) 03:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  No, according to the first sentence, this article is about Taiwan. The country of Taiwan is currently under the control of the Republic of China, so it is officially called that. The ROC government could be replaced by a completely new government and this article would remain about Taiwan. There is no single ROC article covering the entirety of its history in detail. The ROC is covered in the article China (and in more detail in the article Republic of China (1912-1949)) for its history until 1949 and in this article for its history since then. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  The island of Taiwan is under the control of the Republic of China, the "country" of Taiwan is the Republic of China, whichever name or government they may or may not change to. There is an article about the history of the ROC in detail at History of the Republic of China. CMD (talk) 12:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  Nope. Or are you claiming that the ROC existed 20000 years ago? This ia a country article about Taiwan. It covers the time before the ROC and the time under the ROC. Just as any country article covers the time before the existence of its current state. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  However we understand the scope of the article, I think we all agree it is about the country and that this country is an island country. The nature of its official name or political status does not contradict that. Butterdiplomat (talk) 19:41, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  I am not following this response. Countries and states are the same sorts of entities. There was no country of Taiwan 20000 years ago. CMD (talk) 01:10, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think we are simply getting deep into very abstract and philosophical territories with this discussion. By my reading, Khajidha is distinguishing country (Taiwan) and the modern state (ROC) and saying that the history of the country goes back before the establishment/arrival of the state — the country is a broader concept. What you are saying is that the state defines the country, and in this article it is the country. But in both instances, the country is an island country, I guess would be my takeaway and how I would close the loop. Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  A country is a chunk of ground. A state is a government. The chunk of ground that we call Taiwan certainly was around 20000 years ago and the things that happened on it are covered in this article. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  After looking through past discussions, I think what Matt Smith said is the correct understanding. This article began as "Republic of China" and was moved because "Taiwan" became a common name for the topic, which is still the Republic of China, but with a focus on its current jurisdiction. Vacosea (talk) 05:46, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  That is the move history, I concur. But the article has clearly evolved over time to incorporate other aspects of the country, which makes sense. Republic of China (1911-1949) was non-existent at one point, and now it houses most of the early ROC history. Usage in the English language evolves over time as well, and at this moment in time (and for many decades already), Taiwan and Republic of China both refer to the same island country. Butterdiplomat (talk) 07:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose This article is always fraying on the edge. The lead has been stable now for longer than any other time and pulling on a tiny loose thread just invites more problems down the road. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

  Responding to this comment given presumably it is about the island country proposal: As far as I can tell, there was only 1 prior proposal of adding an “island” descriptor to “country” following the 2020 RfC (determining “country” as the term to use), and the arguments were not exhaustive. This time around, the new “arguments” for this addition are:

  1. It is a stylistic change that is consistent with the 2020 RfC;
  2. Many, if not most, other island countries have this phrasing in the first sentence; and
  3. It distinguishes Taiwan from Thailand upfront.

  There certainly are more supports than before. Perhaps half of the opposes so far view the addition as redundant, not inaccurate; this is addressed by argument #2 above. The remainder of opposes seem to misunderstand or disagree on what this article is about. This article is about the country Taiwan, i.e. more than just the state ROC (politics), it is about the land. And this particular land is characterized by islands, just like other island countries. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Taiwan is arguably a country and calls itself one, but the Republic of China (Taiwan) does not formally identify as an independent island country separate from China. Officially, it still claims to be the legitimate government of all China. This is reflected in Taiwan's constitution and official stance, which does not support separatism or relinquish its legal claim over the mainland.[19] Therefore, presenting the ROC as independent from China disregards its official stance and legal framework. I would support this if Taiwan's constitution endorsed separatism or relinquished its claim over the mainland, but it does not. Wikipedia should not contradict their official position. NewYearGOT (talk) 09:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia already does contradict the official position described here, as it does for many official positions for many countries around the world. CMD (talk) 15:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  If you call it as an island nation, you are basically saying it has approved separatism and relinquished their claims to the mainland. But that's not their situation. For other countries, there's no issues in calling it an island. But for Taiwan, you can't be treating it like the others when it has obvious political issues as calling it an island nation basically means officially separatist and independent from China. If you describe Taiwan this way, you must clarify soon afterwards that it is not officially independent from China and still claims all of China, otherwise you mislead people into thinking its official status has suddenly changed. NewYearGOT (talk) 20:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  We're describing the situation as it is. Remsense诉 20:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  Describing Taiwan as an independent island country on Wikipedia is misleading and lacks official backing. The ROC identifies itself as the legitimate government of all China, and no country, including the ROC, officially recognizes Taiwan as a separate, independent island state. Ignoring this official reality invites dispute as it contradicts the legal and political stance of the ROC and other nations. NewYearGOT (talk) 20:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  The proposal is “island country”, not “island country independent from China”. So, the proposed language in fact does not contradict those official stances. In any case, we describe facts as is or as observed, and Wikipedia is not a log of official government stances. Butterdiplomat (talk) 20:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  Referring to Taiwan as an island nation inherently implies it is independent from China. It is contradictory to call it an island nation while also asserting it is not independent from China. This inconsistency must be avoided for clarity and accuracy. See my below reply. NewYearGOT (talk) 21:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  That is your opinion and not supported by RS. You may as well say that “omitting ‘island country’ implies it is part of China”. We are not stating its status in relation to China by adding this qualifier. Butterdiplomat (talk) 22:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  There are no reliable sources that describe Taiwan as an island nation because the ROC does not legally or officially identify itself as such. Instead, it identifies as the government of all China, which is largely connected to the Eurasian continent. Referring to Taiwan in the first sentence on Wikipedia as an island nation without immediate clarification misrepresents its current stance and oversimplifies the complexity of its legal and political statusNewYearGOT (talk) 06:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  We are not meant to describe the ROC stance vs. the situation as is and as observed by the rest of the world. Butterdiplomat (talk) 08:50, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  We are not meant to disregard official gov stances on defining an entity. I understand that because Wikipedia is a crowdsourced platform, it can sometimes oversimplify or misrepresent nuanced situations. But such things should be avoided. We don't ever say Crimea is Russian and no longer Ukrainian despite no Ukraine effective control because of official international consensus and we don't ignore it. Similarly doesn't matter if Taiwan is controlled by China or not. That doesn't suddenly end China's sovereignty over it, in which majority of the world still recognize.[20] And that's the whole problem here. You guys are just rushing to oversimplify a situation that can be seen as taking sides.

  But wikipedia should accurately reflect the self-identification of political entities and the broader international consensus to avoid diminishing any claims or misrepresenting the situation. Balancing these perspectives is challenging but it is essential for ensuring that the information remains neutral, accurate, and respectful of all viewpoints involved.NewYearGOT (talk) 01:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  There is not an active war, and a more apt comparison would be North Korea and South Korea. We would not say Taiwan is part of China just as we would not say South Korea is part of North Korea (or vice versa). The overwhelming consensus, which matches English language usage, is that North Korea and the DPRK refer to the same thing; similar to South Korea and the ROK, China and the PRC, and lastly Taiwan and the ROC. The latter is an island country, and you are not making a clear argument against this statement besides personal or governmental politics. Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:21, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  Well, it factually IS independent of China. Last I checked Beijing could not pass laws for Taiwan and expect them to be followed. They may not like it, they may rant and rave and whine and intimidate other countries into complying with their fantasies, but the fact on the ground is that China is one country and Taiwan is another. For China to claim Taiwan at this point makes them seem totally impotent. It's been DECADES, if it was theirs they'd have control of it by now. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

  That's your opinion and not supported by any RS. Nobody including USA and Taiwan recognize Taiwanese independence. That's the fact. Unless you have a proper source proving otherwise, you can't just claim it's a fact.NewYearGOT (talk) 06:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  It is supported by the simple definition of the word independent. Taiwan is not subject to Beijing's control. Therefore it is independent of it. Recognition is not required. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

  If that is the case, then shouldn't Abkhazia, Transnistria, Sahrawi Republic and Northern Cyprus be called countries as well, rather than being currently labelled as 'states' on Wikipedia? Donkey Hot-day (talk) 07:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  Those articles are special cases whereas this one underwent extensive RfC to arrive at the consensus of “country”. We are not proposing changing this, but rather adding an island descriptor. Butterdiplomat (talk) 08:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  I am afraid it's not that simple. The term "independence" here carries more weight and complexity when referring to describing nations and territories. The concept involves not only control but also recognition and legitimacy in the eyes of the international community. Otherwise you can go to Crimea article and write it's not part of Ukraine only because Ukraine has no control over it. We don't do that because we can't oversimplify a complex situation and disregard significant political views. Many countries today dispute Taiwan's status as independent from China. Even ROC doesn't claim to be independent. If you don't think any of that matters, then go ahead and write it on the article that it's an independent nation and that other countries recognition do not matter at all. You can't as obviously international laws and official recognition matters enough.NewYearGOT (talk) 01:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  We do not use the word “independent” in the lede, though it is in fact independent from the PRC. Actually, by definition. As a concept and in terms of geographic control. So, it remains unclear what your argument is. Are you saying Taiwan (country) should not be called a country, Taiwan (country) should not be called an island country, or Taiwan (island) should not be called a country? It seems you have been fixated on that third concept, which is not what we are discussing here anyway. Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  And, just in case you are wondering, for Taiwan to claim China makes them look delusional. Both sides need to give it up. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

  (Your unsolicited punditry isn't helpful to us here.) Remsense诉 17:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think you may be confused here. Taiwan (if defined as the ROC) is in fact independent and separate from China (if defined as the PRC). If you are talking about a broader cultural and historical definition of country (superseding modern state boundaries), then Taiwan (country) being part of China (country) is in dispute but still satisfied by the proposal. Butterdiplomat (talk) 20:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  The ROC constitution does not explicitly specify territorial boundaries. There is no rule or legal definition that says China cannot be an island country. Just because there was a historical ROC claim on the mainland, does not make Taiwan (country) part of the mainland. In addition, just because you think that Taiwan (country) is part of China, does not make it not made of islands. Butterdiplomat (talk) 20:18, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  Taiwan operates independently with its own government and is often called an island country in practical terms. However, it is not officially recognized as an island nor a separate country to China by many nations including even both ROC and PRC. China claims Taiwan as part of its territory, and Taiwan does not officially declare itself independent from China. This situation leads to limited international recognition and complicated diplomatic relations. Wikipedia strives for neutrality and accuracy, particularly on contentious topics like Taiwan's status. Calling it an island, just creates a whole new debate and issues on whether China is deemed an island and ROC can be called an island nation without contradicting its official stance that it represents all of China. NewYearGOT (talk) 20:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  Your first sentence is sensible and supports the proposal. The following points are less relevant for this article than for China. This article is about Taiwan, so if you think China should be defined differently, then that should be taken up with the China page. Butterdiplomat (talk) 21:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think we are going in circles, so I'll make this one last point. Officially recognizing Taiwan as not independent from China means that calling it an island nation contradicts that recognition, as no one recognizes China as an island. China is not an island. Hence, referring to Taiwan (ROC) as an island nation is akin to stating it has achieved complete separatism from China and is officially independent. It's a complex situation where both the PRC and ROC claim to be the legitimate government of all China but agree that Taiwan is not separate from China. Wikipedia cannot contradict this by asserting the opposite. Therefore, I agree with those who oppose this description as it invites significant issues regarding accuracy. NewYearGOT (talk) 21:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia neither gives nor has the ability to give “official recognition” - that’s not what we are doing here. If the actual situation (as you described in practical terms) contradicts official stances, then we can note it, as we already do in Political status of Taiwan. And once again, this article is about the country Taiwan, not China. It is about the ROC insofar as it overlaps with Taiwan (i.e., there is a separate article for pre-1949 ROC). Butterdiplomat (talk) 22:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not entirely sure these are valid points, perhaps you just aren't explaining them well? Maybe try again? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:07, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

My reason to oppose is because this is Wikipedia and not a tabloid. And it's the same reason why we don't say Taiwan is independent from China. Because legally and politically, they are not. Similarly, legally and politically, they are not an island nation as ROC doesn't identify themselves as separate from China, which is largely connected to the Eurasian continent. No country in the world recognise Taiwan as separate from China.

Not even ROC identify itself as separate island from China. Has ROC completed separatism? No. So ROC is not legally an "island" then. This shouldn't even be a debate over this. When you call it an island nation, it introduces unnecessary confusion and controversy. Many people are literally going to assume that's a fact both legally and officially. And then you have to add clarifications that it's not separate from China officially etc. I may agree to calling it an island nation if it is immediately clarified that the ROC also does not identify itself as such legally and politically. However, this approach is just impractical and confusing, making it best to just maintain the current wording as is, which is less contradictory and less controversial.NewYearGOT (talk) 06:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a log of official government stances. So your two paragraphs here are not advancing our discussion here. Butterdiplomat (talk) 08:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not a log but those stances matter. We don't rely on effective control alone to define entities. Otherwise you might as well call Crimea as Russian and disregard international consensus because according to you, they don't matter. Wikipedia should not disregard official government perspectives or ignore the complexity of Taiwan's status. It's especially because this is a complicated politically charged issue that wikipedia should be neutral and represent all significant parties without taking sides. However nobody including ROC policy, Western countries are even saying it's an island nation. And there is obviously going to be parties that will strongly dispute it is one, so agree with Matt Smith and Fyunck(click) above that it's a politically charged statement that should be avoided if you can.NewYearGOT (talk) 01:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

We are not ignoring the complexity of its status. In fact, we extensively outline the views on its status in Political status of Taiwan. Again, for this country article, our objective is not to adhere to the policy or stance of any one state or government. It is to describe the situation as is and as characterized by reliable sources (which governments are not). Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per input from CurryCity. The lead for one is meant to reflect what is in the majority of notable sources and it is hardly clear that most of them use the term 'island country'. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 07:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

• Status quo I favour to remain the way it is for the article. The introduction has made clear language regarding the country consisting of islands. Also a plenty of island nations' articles are not using descriptive term as "island country", but everyone knows they belong to the group, such as United Kingdom, Indonesia, Republic of Ireland, Dominican Republic or Brunei. It proves that it is no necessarity to put a specific geographical term, the current version is clear enough for an island nation.Pataya2527 (talk) 13:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  Since a significant portion of the opposes seem to argue island is redundant (i.e., a matter of style vs. substance), I am curious what your stances are on the substance given the other arguments in the oppose camp. Are you in actuality neutral about this, since the majority (or significant amount) of island countries such as Japan, Cuba, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Jamaica, Marshall Islands (with islands in its name!), etc. all have this descriptor? It seems to be a helpful descriptor in those cases as it would be here. Butterdiplomat (talk) 10:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose There can only be 1 China at a time. This is ridiculous. Not even Taiwan recognizes itself as a country. My solution is to have the word; "country" removed entirelyfrom the 1st sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelpor (talk • contribs) 05:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

That is not being proposed or contemplated in this discussion. It is also not relevant to this discussion. Please refer to the 2012 RM, 2020 RfC, and other discussions to understand what this article is about. Butterdiplomat (talk) 09:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Find a statement that better fits WP:NPOV, rather than taking sides.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Moral and political points of view:

We should then list all points of view, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them. There exist some cases where the vast majority of political parties, politicians and journalists hold a certain opinion, while a sizeable minority do not: both views should be stated.

In Wikipedia:WIKIVOICE:

Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. The aim is to inform, not influence.

Avoid stating opinions as facts.
Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc.

Among the many controversies, the view that Taiwan is a country is just one of many. As far as the current situation is concerned, the first sentence of the current entry directly engages in the controversy, directly and arbitrarily acknowledging Taiwan's status as a country and stating this opinion as facts. Not both views were stated. Some people will say that we reached consensus in the 2020 RfC. In Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.

To sum up, it can be concluded that the current statement in the first sentence is problematic. Although the subsequent statement about the contentious political status of Taiwan is correct, it does not prevent the first sentence from being problematic. Since NPOV is a non-negotiable policy, I hope our subsequent discussion will be based on NPOV. ZeehanLin (talk) 15:35, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

You have not offered up a new argument. Please introduce a new idea for others to consider, or otherwise refrain from accusing other editors of violating policy. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:02, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

...Your words make me at a loss for words. If I'm not contributing new ideas, who came up with the ideas in this RfC?ZeehanLin (talk) 18:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It's may be better to say:

Taiwan is a disputed political entity in East Asia.

Regarding the term political entity, people who have different opinions on whether Taiwan is a country all agree that Taiwan is a political entity:

1. Curtis, John; Ward, Matthew; King, Winnie (28 March 2024). "Taiwan: History, politics and UK relations". UK Parliament. UK: UK Parliament. This is a remnant of a political entity formed on the Chinese mainland more than 100 years ago.
2. "The impact of political entity on confidence in legal authorities: A comparison between China and Taiwan". ScienceDirect. ScienceDirect. 16 July 2010. doi:10.1016/j.jcrimjus.2010.06.010. The current study compared the public confidence in legal authorities in two different political entities: China and Taiwan.
3. Yang, Kai-Huang (October, ROC 98). "政治定位之討論： 兩岸關係60年" [The Discussion on Political Status Cross Taiwan Strait over 60 years] (PDF). 展望與探索 (in Chinese (Taiwan)). 7 (10). Taiwan. 1991年中華民國的「國家統一綱領」，提出「互不否認對方為政治實體」 {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
4. Wang, Yingjin (2016-02-09). "论统一前的两岸政治关系定位" (in Chinese (China)). CENTRE FOR EUROPEAN STUDIES AT RENMIN UNIVERSITY OF CHINA. 相对于大陆政权而言，其为一个自治政治实体 {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
5. Huang, Zhilian (1995-07). "告別不了中國的「政治實體」". 海峽評論 (in Chinese (Taiwan)) (55). Taiwan: 《海峽評論》雜誌社. ISSN 1018-1075. 雙方存在著的嚴重政治分歧，是在於台灣這個「政治實體」的發展大動向之上。 {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
6. "REQUEST FOR THE INCLUSION OF AN ITEM IN THE PROVISIONAL AGENDA OF THE FIFTIETH SESSION" (PDF). UNITED NATIONS. UNITED NATIONS. 19 July 1995. For a period of 22 years, from 1950 to 1971, the United Nations considered the question of the representation of two politically dissimilar entities in China.
7. "Office of the President Clarifies Reports on President Lee's Remarks". Taiwan: Office of the President, Republic of China. 1997-11-10. The Republic of China is a political entity dedicated to freedom, peace, democracy, fairness and justice.
8. Chen, Yu-Hua (09 April 2016). "Recognising the Republic of China". East Asia Forum. East Asia Forum. it means that Beijing does not recognise the existence of the ROC, the political entity that presides over Taiwan and other islands such as Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and the Taiping or Itu Aba Island in the South China Sea. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
9. Lin, Gang. "台湾研究半世情" (in Chinese (China)). Shanghai, China: Center for Taiwan Studies, Shanghai Jiao Tong University. 两岸的"鸡蛋之争"，可以理解为两个政治实体之间的"分庭抗礼"。"分庭"就是客观上存在着两个互不隶属、各自管辖内部事务的政权，双方互不干涉对方的内部事务；"抗礼"就是两岸政府在宪法和国际法的意义上并不承认对方是另一主权实体，也就是法理上互不承认。
10. "中華民國自一九一二年肇建至今，國祚從未間斷；且中華人民共和國自一九四九年成立以來，其治權未曾及於台灣，台海兩岸由兩個政治實體分治，乃不爭之事實，台灣絕非中華人民共和國之一部分" (in Chinese (Taiwan)). Taiwan: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Republic of China (Taiwan). 2003-07-10. 台海兩岸由兩個政治實體分治
11. Chen, Kuide (2024-01-19). "专栏 中国透视：台湾大选 开辟新命". rfa (in Chinese (China)). rfa. 诚然，作为两个政治实体，中华民国与中华人民共和国在长达74年时间里，基本上是相互隔绝独立演化的。
12. ...

ZeehanLin (talk) 08:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

You are pursuing a very particular terminology change as if it is the sole determiner of POV. You continue to ignore literally everything beyond the first sentence of the article. We decide terminology based on English language usage, full stop. We decided in WP:TWRFC, and so that's what we will continue to do. Remsense诉 08:25, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

You continue to ignore literally everything beyond the first sentence of the article.—Yeah, because the first sentence is problematic but others is not. ZeehanLin (talk) 08:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The meaning of a sentence is informed by the surrounding context, and are not read in isolation. If you are not going to be satisfied unless we call Taiwan something other than a country or overload it with things that are explained very soon thereafter, then you are not going to get what you want here. Remsense诉 08:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I will defend to the death my right to say it ZeehanLin (talk) 08:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

To say what? We're talking about what the article could say, which no one has any particular ownership over. Remsense诉 08:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

If A is B and A is not B is a controversial topic, you should not say "A is B. But the statement that A is B is controversial" when describing A. You should say: "Whether A is B is controversial." ZeehanLin (talk) 12:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

If “This policy is non-negotiable” does not apply to you, then it is meaningless and useless to discuss it with you. ZeehanLin (talk) 08:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Policies apply to articles, not every sentence in sequence. One cannot insist this vehemently that NPOV is being violated if you read the entire lead. Remsense诉 08:42, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

To reiterate: we represent every opinion on what Taiwan is throughout the article, and we use the language that our sources say: we choose what terminology to use based on English language sources, which describe Taiwan as a country. Remsense诉 08:58, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

the sole determiner of POV--If you have a better term, please suggest it. Also, regarding English usage, I just used multiple languages ​​to prove that nearly everyone supports this term, and you should be able to see that there is also English usage here. You give me the feeling that you are refuting in order to keep it as it is, if so, please don't do that. ZeehanLin (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Nearly everyone? A handful of sources from each category does not prove this term is neutral for "nearly everyone", merely a proficiency at cherrypicking—that's why we judge based on what the whole body of reliable sources says, which is what happened at WP:TWRFC. Using this method, you could likely try to argue that the United States should be referred to as a "parking lot". Remsense诉 12:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

To reiterate: changing what Taiwan is referred to is not up for discussion beyond having another massive RfC, which will come to the same conclusion because the sources haven't changes and the policies haven't changed. Please be more considerate that we face this question constantly. Remsense诉 12:29, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

As for whether the term "political entity" is appropriate, you can raise your point of view to improve it. But I think everyone should know how much controversy there is over whether Taiwan is a country.

I would like to add that "political entity" is a term that does not contradict the term "country", which means that it can be called a political entity regardless of whether it is a country or not. ZeehanLin (talk) 12:30, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The clear majority of English-language sources call Taiwan a country. It is not our job to change that because a minority of English-language sources disagree. That is not explicitly not how NPOV works: we represent all sources, but we do not refrain from differing from minority-view sources. We take the majority position, and give the others their due. If we refrained from calling Taiwan a country, that would be giving undue weight to sources that disagree, and that would be a POV violation. Remsense诉 12:37, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I will refer the ROC/Taiwan as sovereign state instead of vague term “country” if my personal views are counted. As “country” has been agreed upon general consensus, which should be upheld by either sides, we do not make such decision based on personal preference. Sheherherhers (talk) 13:03, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand why some members of the Admin User Group always act so superior and stick to their own opinions even though there are policies and guidelines to rely on. ZeehanLin (talk) 08:43, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

No admins have participated in this conversation. Remsense诉 08:47, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Precisely, some patrollers ZeehanLin (talk) 08:52, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

If you have grievances about user conduct, go to WP:ANI about it, and restrict things here to content, please. Remsense诉 08:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

You wrote above, "The meaning of a sentence is informed by the surrounding context." Doesn't that apply to words as well? TFD (talk) 11:22, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Correct, that's how language works. Remsense诉 11:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

If A is B and A is not B is a controversial topic, you should not say "A is B. But the statement that A is B is controversial" when describing A. You should say: "Whether A is B is controversial." ZeehanLin (talk) 12:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

And it's not controversial: the vast majority of English-language sources call it a country. That's it. Remsense诉 12:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you could just write "the vast majority of English-language sources call it a country" in the article. Because Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them (WP:WIKIVOICE). ZeehanLin (talk) 13:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Avoid stating opinions as facts. (WP:WIKIVOICE) ZeehanLin (talk) 13:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

This is my last reply here, since I haven't specifically addressed this point: a statement of fact can be disagreed upon, but that is crucially not the same thing as an opinion. An opinion is saying Taiwan is illegitimate or legitimate; sources do not treat the assertion as "country" as a statement of opinion. Remsense诉 15:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

According to WP:ASSERT:

Fact (e.g., information that is accepted as true and about which there is no serious dispute)
Opinion (e.g., a matter which is subject to serious dispute or commonly considered to be subjective)

Given the dispute, this is an opinion. ZeehanLin (talk) 16:25, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

But is not calling it a country not taking the PRC's side? Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

This can also be said that the view that Taiwan is a country is more biased towards supporters of Taiwan independence.

I would like to remind you that only PRC and ROC people really care about these differences. Others basically just follow one side. However, some Wikipedia editors may be motivated by the attitude of maintaining stability. ZeehanLin (talk) 12:35, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

We care about policies—I actually quite like fixing when major articles get something really wrong. No need to assume what secret motivations other editors may have. Remsense诉 12:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

nothing new here… just worth mentioning that even in Chinese language Wikipedia, the current version the ROC topic also defines the polity as “民主共和国”(democratic republic nation), it’s not only the English version making such definitions, so stop your accusations of pointing every opposition as “bias”. If you won’t able to reach consensus on the Chinese Wikipedia, how come we should accept your version of story instead of general consensus?? Sheherherhers (talk) 12:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The Chinese Wikipedia is currently discussing the changes. As the discussion is not over, no changes can be made. The discussion there is not nearly as one-sided as the English Wikipedia. Supporters on both sides are evenly matched there. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:29, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Your version of story--I hope you can stop saying this. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:30, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

This is why I wish Sheherhers hadn't thought to bring this up, though I know she was trying to get through to someone: it does not matter in the slightest what any other language wiki has, ever. They are editorially independent from us. Remsense诉 14:35, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is kind of my point, There is no real NPOV here, as both sides have one that are mutually exclusive. Slatersteven (talk) 12:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

But after thinking about it, I realized that there is a difference between "not calling it a country" and "calling it is not a country".The former seems vague, while the latter is definitely taking PRC's side. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Both do. as (in effect) not calling it a country accepts the PRC's claims that is is not. Now of course we are trying to give both sides version, as we also do not say that hte PRC is not a country, nor do we say that the ROC is the government of China. We are in fact trying to be fair to both sides. Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think both do.

Taiwan is an island in the South China Sea.

Although this statement is a deliberate avoidance of controversy, at least I don't feel that the author is biased towards one side or the other. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The word island simply refers to the geography, but the source tells about politics. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Guys, I have a suggestion to review both of the terminology of the ROC and PRC pages for the same criterion, if you want to make it “fair”, let’s be fair. Sheherherhers (talk) 14:10, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I get you're trying to have some ground everyone can accept, but the point about "fairness" is another pitfall: we should not determine one article's adequacy based on what another says. Interarticle consistency is secondary to internal correctness Remsense诉 14:31, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is clear, and this waster of everyone's time needs closing, as it’s not going to change anything. Slatersteven (talk) 14:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Slatersteven here. Consensus is clear especially considering WP:DUE, and no new points were introduced. The proposals are getting closer to WP:DONTLIKEIT and steering further and further away from reason and civility. Butterdiplomat (talk) 14:28, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Neutral point of view does not mean no point of view, is the fundamental misunderstanding here. The suggestion is essentially to invent a new novel category of polity to put Taiwan into because it seems to lie between what the imagined extreme positions are, which is not what any but a very small number of sources consider it to be. We will not do that, because it is a synthetic, dishonest thing to do that is useful to nobody. We repeat what sources say, not what we think they more or less all can live with if you squint. That is not how tertiary analysis works. Remsense诉 14:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I would like to know whether this consensus complies with the provisions of WP:NPOV for the reasons mentioned above. If it does not, then this consensus is invalid according to the provisions. This is also the reason why you often say that I “disrespect consensus”. ZeehanLin (talk) 16:17, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

One final thing: is there an answer you will accept here? What would we actually have to show or explain to you where you would accept the article as written? We've explained what NPOV means in practice (i.e. expressing each position proportionally, but not averaging them into a compromise position that we feel would make everyone happy), we've explained how it's been applied here and elsewhere, and you have not accepted a single sentence of it. Remsense诉 16:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I think ChatGPT's statement is neutral.

Q: What is Taiwan?
A:
Taiwan, officially known as the Republic of China (ROC), is an island located in East Asia. It lies between the East and South China Seas in the northwestern Pacific Ocean, with the People’s Republic of China (PRC) to the northwest, Japan to the northeast, and the Philippines to the south.
Taiwan has a complex history and political status. It was originally inhabited by indigenous peoples and later saw significant Han Chinese immigration. It was a Dutch colony in the 17th century, then part of the Qing Dynasty, and later a Japanese colony from 1895 until the end of World War II. After the Chinese Civil War, the ROC government retreated to Taiwan in 1949.
Today, Taiwan operates as a self-governing entity with its own government, military, and constitution. However, its political status is contentious, with the PRC claiming Taiwan as part of its territory and refusing to establish diplomatic relations with countries that recognize the ROC.
Would you like to know more about Taiwan’s culture, economy, or its current political situation?
Q: Why is Taiwan an island not a country?
Taiwan’s status is complex and often debated. Here are some key points to understand:
1.Geographical and Historical Context: Taiwan is an island located in East Asia. Historically, it has been under various rules, including Dutch, Qing Dynasty, and Japanese control.
2.Political Status: After the Chinese Civil War in 1949, the Republic of China (ROC) government retreated to Taiwan. Since then, Taiwan has operated as a self-governing entity with its own government, military, and constitution12. However, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) claims Taiwan as part of its territory and insists that it is not a separate country.
3.International Recognition: Taiwan is not widely recognized as a sovereign state. Most countries, including the United Nations, do not officially recognize Taiwan as an independent country due to the “One China” policy, which acknowledges the PRC’s claim over Taiwan.
4.De Facto Independence: Despite the lack of formal recognition, Taiwan functions like an independent country in many ways. It has its own democratic government, economy, and participates in international organizations under various names.
In summary, while Taiwan operates independently and has many characteristics of a country, its political status remains disputed, primarily due to the PRC’s claims and the international community’s adherence to the “One China” policy.
Would you like to explore more about Taiwan’s current political situation or its cultural aspects?

I don’t think OpenAI has any vested interest in China or Taiwan, not to mention that ChatGPT is available in Taiwan but not in China.

Please note: ChatGPT's answers are only used to show what I consider to be neutral descriptions. According to relevant policies, this cannot be used as any reason for editing and discussion, information source, or other purposes. ZeehanLin (talk) 16:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Remsense诉 16:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Your proposal and rationale were addressed at the top of the discussion. Remsense has also clarified many of our position on NPOV. Please review WP:DUE and WP:BLUDGEON, and I think we can all move on from this topic at this stage. Butterdiplomat (talk) 16:26, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 August 2024

Change “Lee and Wang Chi-lin became the first pair in badminton history to win the men’s doubles twice after an intense 21-17, 18-21, 21-19 victory over the People’s Republic of China’s Liang Weikeng and Wang Chang at the Olympic Games Paris 2024 on Sunday, 4 August.” to “Lee and Wang Chi-lin made history as the first pair to win the men’s doubles twice, securing a 21-17, 18-21, 21-19 victory over Liang Weikeng and Wang Chang of the People’s Republic of China at the Olympic Games Paris 2024 on Sunday, August 4.” NaveemLife (talk) 18:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, adding this visual diff for those reviewing:

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Lee and Wang Chi-lin became the first pair in badminton history to win the men’s doubles twice after an intense 21-17, 18-21, 21-19 victory over the People’s Republic of China’s Liang Weikeng and Wang Chang at the Olympic Games Paris 2024 on Sunday, 4 August.

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Lee and Wang Chi-lin made history as the first pair to win the men’s doubles twice, securing a 21-17, 18-21, 21-19 victory over Liang Weikeng and Wang Chang of the People’s Republic of China at the Olympic Games Paris 2024 on Sunday, August 4.

Bsoyka (t • c • g) 04:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

What section is this in? I do not see this blurb in the article. Butterdiplomat (talk) 10:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: I cannot find the referenced original text to be changed in the article. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 10:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I added to Sport in Taiwan instead because that article is better for these kinds of records and there was already a sentence about their previous gold in Tokyo. Vacosea (talk) 13:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC)