Talk:The Clouds

Socrates Image

We should switch to the image used on the italian page. Ravenous 15:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"One of the first instances of self-referential or post-modern literature?!"!"

Can we please remove that line? Maybe say, this is interestingly self-referential or surprisingly modern or something like that? Besides, I'd like to see a source for you claim. (Eeesh 13:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC))

I agree; it is a rather dubious claim to make that a pre-modern text is post-modern. So, I altered the line.

Also, IIRC, most Old Comedy had a parabasis where the Chorus leader spoke in the voice of the writer - nothing special about the one in the Clouds other than that it refers to an earlier failure. Ephialtes 15:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Interpretation section needs cites

Moving the whole "Interpretation" section to Talk for now.

Interpretation

The Clouds, straddling the lines drawn by Aristotle between comedy and drama in the Poetics, is actually a metaphor for the folly of mankind before the majesty of the Cosmos; all characters, including Socrates, have pride and vanities; all are flawed, and the lampoon is against human weakness itself, which provides the comic aspect of the play. The metaphor of the oven mirrors in the world of men the Clouds. The Clouds exist beyond the world of men in the play, and are the "truth" Aristophanes is brillianly expounding - we recall Chaerophon's complaint at the end that "It is hot in here, like an oven [sic]" - the Oven, fueled by the Clouds, is the "test" that mankind must pass through (for in the play all of society is being tested, and fails); the Clouds are the catalyst of the test.

Incidentally, we notice several references in the play to esoteric knowledges (Strepsiades, in destroying the Academy, goes on to mock Socrates for "looking to the moon," which had been referenced earlier as one of the characters complained about Athens' calendar being innacurate in regards to the New Moon); Aristophanes would have been aware of these things, and was likely mocking the hypocrisy of the various circles of Athens, especially those who claimed to be "initiated" into deeper mysteries, which Aristophanes is demonstrating to be mere folly in comparison to the reality of these mysteries, namely, the Clouds and the Universe itself.

Thus, the play can be seen as being a Cave of caves, an allegory comparable to the Cave in Plato's Republic, but transcending it.

I think this is completely misguided. The play lampoons the idealism of Socrates and his sophistry; a very new (and very anti-democratic) sort of thinking at the time. The Clouds does not support Socrates or his student Plato in any way. Aristophanes was an Athenian, Socrates and his student were really Spartans, at heart.--Kelt65 (talk) 16:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

-- Without cites, this section has the appearance of being unacceptable personal opinions / original research. Please provide good cites for this material before re-adding to the article. Thank you. -- 201.50.254.243 14:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Just Clouds?

It would seem to me that the title is just "Clouds" not "The Clouds"?-[ Coolhandscot 02:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC) ]

The name itself is only the substantive, as you wrote. ( Νεφέλαι) Anyways, the translation can be with, or without article. The normal is to traduce in the first way.... or would you say Man rang the bell? My personal interpretation of the meaning of this translation is that clouds are gods, so they are defined and personalized, that's why "the" should be there. I hope you had unterstood what I said. --Brisk 90 (talk) 11:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

FYI, classicists generally omit the definite article, and not only with regard to this play. Surely you don’t suppose yourself more knowledgeable than they. Antinoos69 (talk) 10:50, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

New edit

I'm intending to make major revisions to this article to bring it into line with other articles on A and his plays (such as Wasps and Peace). I should be finished in about a week and I hope my revisions don't stand on somebody's toes. Lucretius (talk) 23:46, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Restoring nav box

I have restored the nav box (linking to Aristophanes' plays) to the top of the article because it allows for easy cross-referencing between plays and because it is a useful reminder that each play is best understood in the context of all the plays. Lucretius (talk) 00:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

New edits

I've now started a comprehensive re-editing of this article. I removed a tag attached to the section Performances because the tag was wrong - that section is not a list of miscellaneous information: it is a list of modern performances, and that's a valid topic for a play like this. I also exchanged the picture of Socrates for a 16th Century engraving of characters in the play (including Socrates). The original picture orientated the reader to a Socrates-centric view of the play, which is not a balanced view.

I've attached a new edit of the plot summary. I'll probably continue re-editing the summary for some days while I weed out anything that's clunky or unnecessary - a process that takes time, like eyes adjusting to the light outdoors. Lucretius (talk) 05:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

editing out interesting section

I'm removing the following edits (italics mine) though they contain fascinating material - unfortunately the material isn't clearly sourced. If anyone knows the sources this info can and should be re-instated:

...Socrates ... is reported to have obligingly stood and waved to the audience at the close of the play's first performance...Kierkegaard regards Aristophanes' portrayal of Socrates in The Clouds to be the most accurate representation of the man. Whereas Xenophon and Plato portrayed Socrates as very serious, Kierkegaard felt that Aristophanes best understood the intricacies of Socratic irony.

The bit about Socrates standing and waving is probably an imaginative conjecture by some ancient scholar but the Kierkegaard stuff sounds authentically contrary. Lucretius (talk) 00:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

sharing the work

I've decided not to continue any further with my edits. It's hard work editing an article single-handedly and it's best to share the work with many others. Lucretius (talk) 02:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Aristophanes the postmodernist

I've just deleted an edit according to which Aristophanes was an early instance of postmodernism. The edit included a link to a paper that turns out to be an ironic investigation of Aristophanes' anticipation of postmodernism. This reference is an absurd addition to the article, particularly in the introduction which is a summary of important issues. Esseinrebusinanetamenfatearenecessest (talk) 02:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Nav. links

It's conventional to put the nav box at either the right side top or at the foot of the article. Unfortunately the right side top is reserved for the play list and any nav box at the foot is unlikely to be seen in a long and detailed article. All the plays of Aristophanes need to be linked in a way that can be readily seen. So the compromise is a loose list of links in the introduction, as follows:

Aristophanes' Surviving Plays The Acharnians, The Knights, The Clouds,The Wasps, Peace, The Birds, Lysistrata, Thesmophoriazusae, The Frogs, Ecclesiazusae, Wealth II

This conspicuous set of links is appropriate if all the articles are to have the same structure. Esseinrebusinanetamenfatearenecessest (talk) 03:27, 21 May 2009 (U

Nerds and bums

Does some translation actually use these terms? If not, they are too loose and colloquial for an encyclopedia. I have seen 'quacks' used and 'rogues' - very different terms. Myrvin (talk) 08:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)