Talk:The Mouse Turned into a Maid

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Cumulative theme

Hi, once more. I notice you've introduced a section on this subject into the "Mouse who turned into a maid" article but it appears to me disruptively off-topic since most of it has nothing to do with the fable. A mere reference to the "Cumulative Tale" article would have been enough and you could have built that up with your material where it has most relevance. Could I suggest you do something like that? By all means take the Midrash reference there too. Now I think of it, the connection is tangential at best and the transition to the "Venus and the Cat" section would be smoother without it. What do you think? Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 00:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mzilikazi1939, always a pleasure to see you here. I've been watching the progress of the Aesop's fable articles you've been working on with admiration. Your surveys of the fables in the arts in particular are impressive. And, needless to say, I value your ideas on this, not least as creator of the The Mouse Turned into a Maid article. Here's my thinking:

I read the pdf of the Panchatantra chapter you give in note 1, and was really struck by the cumulative theme. I must declare an interest here: I had created that cumulative tales article, back on 22 March 2008, the day I joined Wikipedia. At that time I thought the Midrash about Abraham and Nimrod was probably the earliest occurance. So I was very pleased when I read this fable to discover it again, and perhaps earlier in history. It could be the first occurance of this widespread form.

It seems to me then that there are two parts to the Panchatantra version, the metamorphosis and de-metamorphosis part and the marriage part. And what makes me think that it's not just my interest in cumulative tales that gives me this angle on it is that in the four pages of the tale, it's the marriage element takes up most of the space.

I'll take out the poem, as that takes up a lot of lines, but my feeling is that this is part of the fable that needs its own section too. What do you think? (This section copied from my talk page.)--Annielogue (talk) 09:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm transferring here the first para of our discussion for the benefit of anyone who may like to join in. The latest edit is a great improvement. My suggestion is to do with presentation now. We're supposed to avoid 'original research', so you need to delete the word 'perhaps' and substitute something along the lines of your penultimate para above, which is well argued. If you can find a supporting reference to the inclusion of cumulative elements in folk tales, that would be good. The Jataka of The sound the hare heard and its connection with The story of Henny Penny is another example; if it would amuse you, take a look at a version of the former on p.8 here: http://www.bbvt.org.uk/lotus_arch/Lotus5.pdf. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 12:04, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Italian tale.

Is the story about the prince and the cat mentioned here related (it's also told about Maimonides sometimes)? Omeganian (talk) 12:40, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It would require the theme of transformation to establish a relationship between the stories. The joke underlying your source seems to have more in common with the moral behind the fable of The Ape and the Fox, however different the participating creatures. Sweetpool50 (talk) 16:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the similarity in moral. It seems the same: no effort (human or divine) will change nature. As a note: I only found one speculation online about a connection, and it doesn't appear to be a professional one. Omeganian (talk) 20:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]