Talk:Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera

Father of Jesus?

What is the source for these allegations?Bjones 01:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Celsus, quoted in Origenes "Contra Celsum":

when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera.

"Contra Celsum" quote: http://duke.usask.ca/~niallm/252/Celstop.htm

The link between Celsus' Panthera and Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera was made in "La vita di Gesu" by Marcello Craveri (1966)

source: http://members.fortunecity.de/bingium/grabstein.html Collegavanerik 21:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

A discussion about Celsus' jewish source of the Panthera story can be found in the Ben Pandera and Ben Stada lemma: Celsus seems to have combined the biographies of Yeshu ben Pandera and Jesus of Nazareth. Even more is discussed on the Yeshu talk page Collegavanerik 21:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Collegavanerik 23:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC) I've put this section here:

This connection does not take into account any of the traditional dates for the birth of Jesus nor does it account for the fact the Yeshu was a common Jewish name in jewry and could refer to any person by that name.

The reason is that the citizenship of Abdes after 25 years of service during Emperor Tiberius (19-37) gives a match with adolescence in Syria, and a coincidence with Jesus' birth in 4 BC. The second part is not really adding extra information.

Cleanup

This article needs to explain the identification between this Pantera and Jesus' supposed father. Surely it's not just because the names are similar?--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I stated in the article that the Jesus connection is alledged, that Celsus is the source of the Pantera story, that Craveri first made the connection between the Bingen Pantera and the Celsus Pantera. Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera is a suspect who fits the Celsus profile: A roman soldier who was an young adult in Palestina in 4 BC.

That's it, a suspect, nothing more, nothing less. Collegavanerik 20:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I fully support Collegavanerik conclusion. There is thin evidence here: "Tiberius Pantera could have been serving in the region at the time of Jesus's conception" - meaning, he could have equally been somewhere else and other people (who we may have only little evidence of) might also be possible candidates of having been in the region and potentially fathered Jesus. I dont think this assertion should be mentioned in Wikipedia. Hskoppek (talk) 15:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

The Talmud and other Jewish writings refer to Jesus as "Yeshu ben Pantera," which translates to "Jesus, son of Pantera." Overall, it seems that the idea of Pantera being the father of Jesus.--RsEkanayake 06:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Jesus' Parents, new developments

Actually, this clue on the tombstone that points to a "father" of Jesus, is perhaps THE most important breakthrough regarding an effort to reclaim a truer understanding of the historical circumstances Jesus Christ. I refer to a book by Tony Bushby called The Bible Fraud, an unfortunate title but understandable. Though it is obviously impossible to completely verify all the claims, Bushby has made an exhaustive effort at digging up old, obscure and hard to access texts to bring more light to this story of Jesus. As Elaine Pagels points out, there have been many efforts on the part of the Roman Catholic authorities to steer the packaging of Christianity to suit its needs to secure a non-threatening centralized religious system.

I highly recommend Bushby's book and would recommend that Wikopedia include a reference to this book in the index to the article.

I must say that the alleged facts that Bushby presents seem so outrageous that his findings are taking along time to take hold. Another way of looking at it is that this is an indication of just how much the Roman Church has put a spin on the original story. It is helpful to keep in mind that the Roman authorities engaged in massive campaigns to bury and burn any references to the historicity of this Jesus figure.

Here is an overview of Bushby's thesis and I am just going to mention the highlights here. Tiberius Panther who was a Roman Centurion soldier who served in Germany during the time indicated on the tombstone, was the son of Livia who married Augustus Caesar. Tiberius had an elicit affair or forced himself onto Mariamne III (see Wikopedia), the daughter of Aristobulus IV and Berenice, the son of Herod the Great. Mariamne Herod lost her father and was raised as Roman/Herodian Royalty, spending time in Caesar’s palace in Rome along with her sister Herodias, mother of John the Baptist. Upon getting pregnant at age 15 (?), Mariamne took a leave of absence and went to an Essene community to give birth to her twins, known historically eventually as Judas of Galilee and Rabbi Jesus.

Judas Thomas, or Didymus, the twin, as a young man who was raised by the Essenes at a time of messianic furvor, used his claim to the Roman throne to be a torchbearer for the Jewish Nazarean rebellion in Jerusalem, to rid the city and the temple of Roman occupation. Judas was eventually captured and crucified except that a substitute was crucified in his place (though the body was revived with the help of Joseph of Arimathea). Judas survived and later fled in exile to the East, where he became known more commonly as St. Thomas in the Gnostic gospels. Judas' son, Simon Kochbah was the historical figure who led the uprising in later days of the Second Temple in Jerusalem who was crucified. Make note that in the Gnostic Gospels and in the Koran, there are references to a substitute being used in this crucifixion. As for historical references, an earlier crucifixion of a political leader by Marc Antony was recorded by Josephus but Josephus did not mention the crucifixion of a religious leader named Jesus. Josephus includes references to Judas of Galilee.

The story of Rabbi Jesus is even more fantastic and I think incredibly important because through this story as pieced together by Bushby, we get a better handle on how key people in key places at key times set the ball in motion to eventually became Christianity as we know it.

Rabbi Jesus was raised by the Essenes and studied under Hillel. Rabbi could claim to be both Herodian and Roman royalty. His Uncle, a brother of Aristobus IV, Joseph of Arimathea, who managed to steer clear of being killed by his father Herod the Great (unlike two of his brothers), played a key role in furthering Jesus’ education. Joseph was a tin merchant who frequented the mines of Cornwall in Wales. Jesus accompanied him, and made connections to a Royal family there, where he married the daughter of Tasciovanus, Mary of Magda, meaning Castle. After Judas' failed uprising, various members of this family fled Canaan on a boat that landed on the coast of France. From there Joseph of Aririmathea, Mariamne, Jesus and others went onto Southern England where they were honored as 12 Druids and given a huge tract of land which became known as Glastonbury, or Avalon. Mary Eucharis Magdalene stayed in Southern France where her legacy is well known. Jesus becomes Cunobeline who eventually replaces Tackovanus as King, and is named Bran the Blessed. After a successful reign, Bran retires from politics to become Arch Druid in England, one of three. His son from an earlier marriage, Caraticus, takes the throne and becomes a prominent historical figure who successfully fights off the Roman invasion for about nine years until he is captured and brought to Rome, along with Bran his father (Jesus) and other members of his family, including Gladys who marries Pudens. After being pardoned by the Emperor Claudius, this family sets up a House of Britain in Rome, now known as Pudenziana, and is identified as a first Christian church in Rome. Rabbi Jesus/Bran the Blessed, was a high initiate in the Essene/Druidic and Egyptian wisdom/mystery traditions and could well be described as being one of the most advanced and successful souls to have been on the planet at that time in history. The Druid theological system of a trinity, with a messianic figure born on Dec. 25, etc. were key in informing a the structure of a New Covenant, to complete the Jewish project that was unable to complete the efforts by higher angelic realms to reclaim lost humanity from being controlled by lower god or Archonic systems. The Druids claim that their religious system was started by a figure identified with the Biblical figure Seth, child to Adam and Eve. Paul's grandfather was from Tarsus, but Paul was Roman and his mother was a prominent citizen who essentially sponsored this Puden household. Jesus is eventually killed and there are legends about his head being placed at the site of the Tower of London. Both Gnostic and Kaballistic literature are the best examples of the efforts by these people to update the Old Covenant.

The Nicene convention in the 4th century, hosted by an offspring of this British Clan, Constantine, according to Bushby, debated whether to deify the twins. Eventually the two stories were merged into one story to create a figure that was deified to replace the less effective deification of the Caesar. Bushby wrote another book focusing more on the material around the crucifixion.

Again, this information might be difficult to stomach and the real story must be some variation of the one described above. But the degree to which this story seems extremely odd, may well be an indication of just how far off the Roman Catholic spin doctors took the story to suppress the Herod connection, Thomas the Twin as the failed messianic star of Jewish liberation (King of the Jews), and the political nature of the Nazarenes, not to mention the suppression of the mystery teachings that gave the individual too much power by being identified as a Child of Light. For me, as a student of Christian mystery traditions, this story brings new life and new meaning to the warn-out story found in the Bible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doksomedon (talk • contribs) 14:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Uh huh... And the fact that you keep saying "Rabbi Jesus" in no way belies any bias and agenda on your part to force the "accuracy" of a Roman soldier being his biological father...

There is more to say about his Parents from the Gnostics and the Quran, i which it states: Jesus' Father's name was Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera. Roman Legionnaire who left Mary before the Birth of Jesus. Indeed, Jesus passed by the tomb and saw angels of punishment punishing a dead person. When Jesus finished his work and passed by the tomb [again] he saw angels of mercy. The light levels were with them. He was surprised by this and called on Allah to do so. Allah revealed to him: “O Jesus! This servant was your sinful Father, and he left his wife when she was pregnant. It was then that she gave birth to and raised his child. When the child grew old, she gave it to the scribes for custody. He was instructed to say, ‘In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate’, so I was ashamed to punish my servant with my fire in the bowels of the earth while his child remembered my name on the surface of the earth. . ”The Roman Catholic Church felt threatened and feared that her authority would prevail simple-minded and illiterate believers will disperse. Christianity as we know it today in the West is a scenario well thought out Emperor Constantine and the mighty Vatican. This is absolutely misinterpreted, invented and deliberately re-created by the Roman Catholic Church. Christianity was never created by Jesus. Christianity is a product of i the results of Paul's propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.223.149.210 (talk) 00:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

A more modest issue

I came to this article after reading the account of this personage in Tabor's The Jesus Dynasty, & have a simple question about Ti. Iulius Abdes Pantera's unit. According to this article, the Cohors I Sagittariorum was stationed in Judaea until AD 9, and then was in Bingen between 40 and 70; however, Tabor states that the unit arrived in Dalmatia in AD 6, then was moved to the Rhine/Nahe river area in AD 9 (p. 69). Where does the Wikipedia article take its information about the movements of this unit? Since there is no source provided for the present assertions, I am tempted to replace them with what Tabor writes -- even though he may be entirely wrong. After all, Wikipedia aims for verifiability, not "Truth". -- llywrch (talk) 22:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Tiresome

This article is an example of the nonsense which will surface when given an opportunity. It is all very silly and should be discounted by someone who has time to point out how ridiculous the entire proposition is. for instance, why would Mary be so closely tied with Joseph's family if she was the the mother of an illegitimate child. And on and on... This article and all the theories which inform it are all very sad examples of wasted braincells. —Preceding unsigned comment added by VaniNY (talk • contribs) 06:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Notable because

Unfortunately the lead has this false statement:

He is notable because of a suggestion in Marcello Craveri's 1966 book La vita di Gesù (Life of Jesus) that he is to be identified with the Roman soldier Panthera, whom the writer Celsus claimed was the true father of Jesus of Nazareth.

He is not notable for this reason (a source would be required to document this claim), (b) Craveri suggested no such thing. If someone wishes to rework this passage, by all means. But as it stands it is totally unacceptable and written by hands that are unfamiliar with both Craveri's book and the history of scholarship discussing the hypothesis of a connection between this Panthera and the Talmudic figure.Nishidani (talk) 20:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I see this has been reintroduced in the form,

The link between Celsus's Panthera and Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera was first suggested in Marcello Craveri's 1966 book La vita di Gesù.

If you check both Craveri's book, he is making no innovation. The argument goes way back. As Tabor himself notes, Hardy wrote a poem on it, and even Cyril Connolly mentions the theory in 1944, two decades before Craveri, citing earlier sources, took it up.Nishidani (talk) 11:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

References

Dates of birth and death

I've seen this individual being discussed in other places and he is always cited as having lived from 22BC - 40AD, as stated in this article. However no source is given for these dates. Does anyone have a clue where they come from, as from the information on the stone it seems like all we can say is that he turned 43 (18 at time of joining the army plus 25 years' service) during the reign of Tiberius. FergusM1970 (talk) 17:34, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I also came to ask this question. Probably since Tiberius began his reign ~late 14 (September) and died early in 37, the dates of death 30-51 (earliest and latest dates of death since he became a citizen under Tiberius and lived 15 years) with the middle was guessed. It's still a total guess. The only sources I can find say his unit moved to Dalmatia 6 AD, then to the Rhine 9 AD. So maybe he died closer to 30 than 50. Since the unit must've been in Judea, he enlisted before 6 AD (when it moved to Dalmatia), which means he died no later than 45 AD, again the middle between 30 and 45 is late 30's. If (this)[1] (p.12, 30th unit down) is to be trusted, and that's the same unit, they were back in Judea from 73-2nd century. So maybe they didn't move that much?

How old he was when joining doesn't help at all. Judging from the other tombstone in the article, "Hyperanor" seems to be Cretan, but that was normal for many of the soldiers in the archery units. This wasn't the Cohors I Cretan Sagittariorum, but the Syrian one (also the scalar armor on the tombstone - (this)[2] source says is Syrian/Anatolian).

Probably whoever made the wikipedia page split the average just like for Eppelein von Gailingen.

(For those who, like me a few hours ago, didn't know, the soldiers got citizenship after 25 years of service and took the name of the emperor reigning at the end of those 25 years. Which means our boy Pantera became a citizen 14-37, and lived another 15-20 years. I am also assuming he died in service at 62, like his fellow soldier Hyperanor, so he joined at 22. Despite the "exs" (=former standard bearer), it's more plausible imo. If anyone has more info on the other 7 soldiers' tombs, I only found this: [3] pp.79-87 (Jahrbücher des Vereins von Alterthumsfreunden im Rheinlande, Volume 15), but it only talks about Pantera and Hyperanor and some woman and her son (not soldiers). The others might give a clue for the date (if they died close in time) or which unit (name, station, origin, movements)) Cornelius (talk) 10:58, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Pantera a Common Surname in Palestine

Pantera (and its variations) was a common surname among Romans, Greeks, and Jews at this point in history. His given name "Abdes" is a Latin form of the Aramaic 'ebed, or "servant of God". This is a fairly good indicator that he may have been Jewish. He was from Sidon which may explain Yeshua's actions in Mark 7:24 "And from there he arose, and went away into the borders of Tyre and Sidon. And he entered into a house, and would have no man know it; and he could not be hid.". A visit to the relatives? All the evidence is inconclusive, granted, but we can all be 100% sure of this: no child in the fairly lengthy existence of humanity has been born without two human parents, male and female. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorian01 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Will this remain true in a brave new world of advanced in-vitro fertilization, tri-parenthood, gene editing and artifical wombs? 190.239.113.92 (talk) 09:20, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Excellent point. Also, I may remind the original man that at some point some child was either created or evolved without more than one parent. 2602:306:CD96:CC10:FD0A:754D:8082:DC6D (talk) 07:21, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was Merge. The primary discussion discussion was at the merge from page with the proviso that the clarification that the mythological nature of the supposed father is necessary. This also appears to be equally applicable to the discussion here. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

---

I propose to merge another article Panthera (Jesus's father) into this article Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera. The former was created into 2020 and the latter in 2006. I believe the subject of both articles is identical and this should be non-controversial. patsw (talk) 23:34, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Of course they cannot be merged, and I am surprised at the suggestion. One is a known minor historical figure with a documented tomb and military career. DGG ( talk ) 17:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

The other is a name occurring in a collection of myths. DGG ( talk ) 17:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Note: There's a parallel discussion at Talk:Panthera (Jesus's father)#Merger proposal. Dan from A.P. (talk) 19:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Iudaea or Judea?

Wouldn't "Iudaea" be better rendered as "Judea"? Quillerbaracuda (talk) 04:30, 27 May 2022 (UTC)